Sick of hearing about Zimmerman/ Martin case....

[averse]

If one's definition that racisim can only come by having systemic power over another race, then I would agree whites in America currently can be the only real racists. For me, the definition of racisim is more similar to Burton's definition above. I also do not think that diminishes the reality and inherent tragedy of systemic injustice due to a power differential in races. I remember reading a post Fanta linked on here years ago about a couple travelling through Africa, which was absolutely fascinating. One thing I remember, which was not the focus of the post btw, was their tales of countlessly being held up at checkpoints for hours or days at a time until they "paid" a toll, which they had already paid to the legitimate governments before they started their trek. The fear they felt and the systemic oppression they encountered by the dominant race there seemed equivocal to what minorites here often face. My point is that people are people, and systems to govern people are neccessary to protect the weak from the strong, yet these systems are also inherently corrupt. I think its deeper than an attribute of a particular race and applies to our very human nature. I think any race that comes into a sense of power over other races in a society will inevitably use that power to their own advantage, no matter the color of their skin, etc... Because it is an issue created by social systems, I fear attempts to change the social system itself will be unlikely to be effective. It has to be an increased awareness of all/most individuals within that system to recognize the flaw in the system for effective change to occur. That is why dialogues like this thread are so important. That is why *reasoned* protests and activism is important. Until the individuals within the system change the system will continue do what it does, because it is not a person itself.

 

What I see on a deeper level, for Zimmerman, is that in many ways he is a victim himself. The dominant culture in a society will use its power to put subjugant cultures at conflict with each other for its own benefit. In other words, in America, the white dominant culture actively pits hispanics against blacks against asians etc... Again, the individual white persons do not all do this, the white dominated society and its rules do this. I say that line again because White/Euro culture emphasizes individualism strongly, so when white culture is attacked, it tends to feel very personal to a white individual (opening a pandora's box here I know, lol). To reach most white individuals and inspire change, one has to not present their case in a manner that may be threatening to them, if that make sense.

[Guest]

In the US, we are all prejudice. We all have preconceived notions or ideas of other races, religions, groups etc. It's unavoidable, it is all around us, we are exposed to it on a daily. So much so that we don't realize it. TV, movies, commercials, media, ones social circle etc. Every where we look, something is feeding our minds some notion by which to prejudge others. Stereotypes play a role in this as well.

 

Now racism, is the ideology of one's superior race over others accompanied by action. One crosses the line of prejudice the moment they act on those prejudicial beliefs.

 

Now, in relation to Zimmerman/ Martin. Both individuals had prejudicial beliefs of one another. Zimmerman clearly crossed the line into racism when he proceeded to stalk Martin. At one point, both individuals encountered each other at which point both their prejudicial beliefs played a role into the situation escalating and culminating in Martins death.

 

 

[lionbull]

If one's definition that racisim can only come by having systemic power over another race, then I would agree whites in America currently can be the only real racists. For me, the definition of racisim is more similar to Burton's definition above. I also do not think that diminishes the reality and inherent tragedy of systemic injustice due to a power differential in races. I remember reading a post Fanta linked on here years ago about a couple travelling through Africa, which was absolutely fascinating. One thing I remember, which was not the focus of the post btw, was their tales of countlessly being held up at checkpoints for hours or days at a time until they "paid" a toll, which they had already paid to the legitimate governments before they started their trek. The fear they felt and the systemic oppression they encountered by the dominant race there seemed equivocal to what minorites here often face.

 

 

Let me address something about Africa. It is very important to specify which county in Africa we are talking about.

Africa is a continent. There are several countries within Africa not states.

The states or provinces are within the countries. Is this understood?

So where did this happen? That's like blaming North America for what happens in South America.

Blaming North Korea for South Korea's actions etc.

I definitely would not say it is equivocal to what minorities experienced. What privileges were enjoyed by African blacks that were not granted to these visiting white folk in Africa?

Please read up on history so you can understand why it cannot be compared to what minorities went through in the states. If it were, those white folk might not have gone there in the first place because white people generally know where they are going especially when there are a lot of black folks there.

I challenge any white man to be truthful and answer this.

 

Would you go to the dark continent with your white woman, if they had the black version of White Supremacy like you have here in America?

Edited July 24, 2013 by lionbull

[lionbull]

Louswheel01,

 

I am glad you started this thread even though i was against it at first. This has opened up some dialog that i think can clear up some smoke screens between us a peoples.

 

Folks, check out this article if you will.

http://politicalblindspot.org/no-stand-your-ground-right-for-71-year-old-florida-african-american-man/

 

According to the Tampa Bay Times, the jury rejected Trevor Dooley’s claim of self-defense under the state of Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law.

One of the jury members said the law “did not apply to this case.” Jury foreman Walter Joss said, “The whole silly thing was over a skateboard … and it just escalated,” still not indicating how the origins of the conflict are relevant to the controversial Stand Your Ground defense.

The Tampa jury found Dooley, a 71-year-old black man, guilty of manslaughter in the shooting death of his white neighbor, 41-year-old David James, in front of James’ then-8-year-old daughter Danielle.

The Jamaican-born Dooley believes that racism played a big part in his conviction, and he is not alone. Dooley told reporters, “Do you really think that if it was the other way around and the skin color would be different we would be here today? … We wouldn’t.”

James’ daughter, who has been in counseling since the tragedy, did not remember much of the incident. She testified that she only remembered Dooley trying to go home.

The incident occurred in September 2010, when James and Dooley got into an argument over a skateboarder who had been given permission by James to skateboard on the other side of the basketball court where James and his daughter had been playing.

Dooley, who is 5-feet-7 and weighs 160 pounds, said in his testimony that he shot the 6-foot-1, 240 pound James when he felt his life was in danger because James had his hands around Dooley’s neck and was trying to reach for his gun.

The Times also reported that along with manslaughter, Dooley was also convicted of the dubious charges of improper exhibition of a weapon and open carrying of a firearm, both misdemeanors.

Dooley will remain free on bail until his sentencing by Hillsborough Circuit Judge Ashley Moody on Jan. 10.

It should be remembered that George Zimmerman’s defense argued that it was irrelevant how the encounter with Trayvon Martin began. What mattered, they said, was that Zimmerman claimed he had no other choice but to fire. For months the media speculated that Zimmerman’s defense would rest upon the Stand Your Ground law, but ultimately, this defense was never invoked. When it has been the defense of African Americans defending themselves in Florida, the defense is consistently denied. First Marissa Alexander, and now Trevor Dooley.

 

 

So Zimmerman failed to be convicted on manslaughter charges, despite using a defense that he was forced to shoot his victim because he was being attacked, just like Dooley.

[patra_is_here]

Would you go to the dark continent with your white woman, if they had the black version of White Supremacy like you have here in America?

 

depends on the development of the country. I pretty much don't feel safe going to 3rd and 2nd world countries. I have a sort of irrational feel of my very californian looking woman being targeted for crime or violence, and my tall height, glasses, and slender build sorta makes me stick out in .

[lionbull]

depends on the development of the country. I pretty much don't feel safe going to 3rd and 2nd world countries. I have a sort of irrational feel of my very californian looking woman being targeted for crime or violence, and my tall height, glasses, and slender build sorta makes me stick out in .

 

Did you even read the question?

Some of you smoking weed while you reading or what?

Someone had posted about an experience in Africa then said it seems equivocal to what minorities faced here.

I rebutted and asked a question.

 

Here it is again. I think you missed it somehow

 

Would you go to the dark continent with your white woman, if they had the black version of White Supremacy like you have here in America?

 

That illustrates Africa would have been every bit as developed as it is in the US.

You completely missed the point of the question.

Edited July 24, 2013 by lionbull

[Shelby]

 

 

Did you even read the question?

Some of you smoking weed while you reading or what?

Someone had posted about an experience in Africa then said it seems equivocal to what minorities faced here.

I rebutted and asked a question.

 

Here it is again. I think you missed it somehow

 

Would you go to the dark continent with your white woman, if they had the black version of White Supremacy like you have here in America?

 

where is this fabled place ,,us poor americans have no idea where this area of white supremacy is you speak of , we have this secton where the poor whites live and another where poor blacks live and another where the mexicans and others live , that perty much sums it up

[Burton]

 

 

 

Some of you smoking weed while you reading or what?

 

 

 

Yes, all day, every day.

[lionbull]

Yes, all day, every day.

 

LOL

[lionbull]

where is this fabled place ,,us poor americans have no idea where this area of white supremacy is you speak of , we have this secton where the poor whites live and another where poor blacks live and another where the mexicans and others live , that perty much sums it up

 

 

 

Everyone has a cog to spin Shelby.

Does the one gear know what the tranny is doing?

When did civil rights kick in for black folk?

Who controls top the 5 or 10% of the wealth in this country? That is old money right there

How many minorities own oil companies in the US? fortune 500 companies?

How many high ranking officials in politics who manage our economy and implementation of laws are minorities?

Why is the love not spreading?

Edited July 24, 2013 by lionbull

[Guest]

 

 

 

Yes, all day, every day.

 

you should be on that other thread

[Shelby]

Why is the love not spreading?

 

 

now there is one question i can answer ..GREED MY FRIEND GREED

[patra_is_here]

lionbull

 

ahhh i thought the race-supremacy wasn't dependent on development status, which is why I answered as I did, because the continent of africa is largely 2nd and 3rd world. If I'm not feeling safe going there now, I wouldn't feel MORE safe knowing it was built under a very anti-white rule of law.

 

but, since you are saying that it would be a 1st world continent built on an anti-white rule of law, I still wouldn't want to go, because I would still be a target by the system. (which I assume you're getting at the idea of an africa built by white slaves?)

[Burton]

 

 

you should be on that other thread

 

Oh, I've been all over it! LOL

 

 

See, everyone has their passionate topic. I'll debate on just about anything, but most times it's because I don't necessarily have a strong opinion either way and play devil's advocate most of the time. Eventually, like with this topic, I give up on the debate because I don't know enough to continue. Other times, I just don't care enough. Lionbull obviously has some passion and knowledge on this topic given his background. I have different passionate topics... Bring up pot legalization, autobody/paint stuff, or gun control issues, I will debate til I'm screaming and pulling what little hair I have left out, then jump right back in and go at it some more LOL. Debate Cagematch style!

[lionbull]

Why is the love not spreading?

 

 

now there is one question i can answer ..GREED MY FRIEND GREED

 

Does not matter who it spreads to. Just spread it across the sandwich

[averse]

So by looking at the only element of my two posts so far that you pointed out, Lionbull, is your point that Racism is only perpetrated by white men anywhere and does not apply to the rest of humanity? I dont mean this as an attack, I am looking for clarification of your point of view.

[lmwii]

lionbull, george zimmerman didn't use the stand your ground defense, he said he acted in self defense. i also think that to inject racism into this situation when there is no evidence of racism is a disservice to our legal system. evidence is presented and judged, and there is no evidence of racism on zimmerman's part. i think the evidence is clear that zimmerman was a 1st class jerk, and that he called the cops on everyone and everything that annoyed him. he was a bully with a gun and he came across a person in martin who wouldn't be bullied, and zimmerman shot him rather than get beat up. i don't think there is any reason to make this particular case about race - it's about a scared guy with a gun and a teenager with the typical young man's chip on his shoulder.

[lionbull]

lionbull

 

ahhh i thought the race-supremacy wasn't dependent on development status, which is why I answered as I did, because the continent of africa is largely 2nd and 3rd world. If I'm not feeling safe going there now, I wouldn't feel MORE safe knowing it was built under a very anti-white rule of law.

 

but, since you are saying that it would be a 1st world continent built on an anti-white rule of law, I still wouldn't want to go, because I would still be a target by the system. (which I assume you're getting at the idea of an africa built by white slaves?)

 

I did not think you would want to go.

You would have to be dragged kicking and screaming but that was just a hypothetical question

 

 

NO, I think they would work on their own to build it. They would not need white labor. Whites are a minority in the world and they cannot stand the sun in America much less Africa. They don't know how to work the land to bring forth it's food in tropical environment.They would die off quickly. Africans would build Africa and they would control the top of the pyramid in terms of wealth. Africa is a huge place and if the countries of Africa had actually come together,the continent would be a super force in finance and politics and there would be no America as you know it. Actually we all might be living in Africa now. Imagine the banks with real money backed by abundant natural resources, diamond, gold, silver,oil, adamantium etc.

[lionbull]

lionbull, george zimmerman didn't use the stand your ground defense, he said he acted in self defense. i also think that to inject racism into this situation when there is no evidence of racism is a disservice to our legal system. evidence is presented and judged, and there is no evidence of racism on zimmerman's part. i think the evidence is clear that zimmerman was a 1st class jerk, and that he called the cops on everyone and everything that annoyed him. he was a bully with a gun and he came across a person in martin who wouldn't be bullied, and zimmerman shot him rather than get beat up. i don't think there is any reason to make this particular case about race - it's about a scared guy with a gun and a teenager with the typical young man's chip on his shoulder.

 

Hi imwii,

how are you? I hope well. We have not debated on the same thread in years. You have some ring rust.

So what was he a scared guy or a bully? Please make up your mind.

Lets keep it 110%

I don't think he was a scared guy with a gun. Scared guys with guns don't attempt what he did with Trayvon. Fear makes you go out and patrol your neighborhood in the rain. You confront a teen knowing you have a weapon and you know self defense. You kill this human being, somebody's son. YUP Zimmerman was scared to death.

 

Now if he was scared, when he came out of his vehicle he probably was prepared to use his weapon.

No Hispanic in my neighborhood would have done that. Not a single one. Ever heard of Sundown Towns?

Some Hispanics have put their tacos down and have assimilated into the dominant society, especially the light skinned ones.

It is about your attitude or mentality.

What does Zimmerman socially categorize himself as?

Edited July 25, 2013 by lionbull

[lionbull]

So by looking at the only element of my two posts so far that you pointed out, Lionbull, is your point that Racism is only perpetrated by white men anywhere and does not apply to the rest of humanity? I dont mean this as an attack, I am looking for clarification of your point of view.

 

Averse, But of course not. Anybody can be but I think you mean hate though. Currently, the dominant Society is the one group that can affect all groups of men in the States.The North and South went to war over IDEALS, not because they hated each other. Did that make sense? So it's not just hate.There is no race system in Africa against whites. There has always been a race system in America against Minorities/Blacks.

Edited July 25, 2013 by lionbull

[Shelby]

Lionbull to be perfictly honest this statement >

There is no race system in Africa against whites. There has always been a race system in America against Minorities/Blacks. <

 

in my many years in bussiness i have found that there is a anti white seniment here in the states blacks against the white man , let me say up front i have no animosity towards any race and make an effort to hold that aditude at work and with my customers but many times i have seen it when a black man walks up to the couunter before a word is said he's on the ofensive towards me ,

 

and all thru recorded history there have been slaves , whites with white slaves,, black with black slaves , but i know of no liveing man responsible for any of these actions ,altho it does go on this very time and day still , so why can't we do what we can to stop that not go on and on about what happened 200 years ago, wouldn't it not be better to go on with our lives and make the world a better place to live in now

 

every time you stir a cow patty the smell comes back fresh as new , only way to get rid of the smell is to stop stiring it

 

[Caliber308]

 

 

what would you be doing there???

 

Don't I have the right to walk where I want to??? But, walking slowly against Town homes in the rain makes you look like your up to no good. One thing that was not brought up in the trial (And I watched the entire proceedings) was this: The police found a "Slim Jim" in the bushes near where the shooting took place. For those of you who don't know, a "Slim Jim" is used to break into cars. I was 17 years old at one time and did a lot of illegal s..t. So, you can't just assume that Treyvon Martin was a angel, like the media and NAACP would like you to believe. Juries make their decision based on the law and evidence. If they deviate from that....We would ALL be guilty of something.

 

Bill

[Caliber308]

 

 

little thing i learned over time , you can't teach a man any thing by killing him but to keep from haveing a few bumps and bloody nose is no excuse to kill him under any sercumstance

 

If someone is bashing my head against the concrete and I have a gun.....I would not hesitate to shoot them dead.

 

Bill

[lmwii]

Lionbull, bullies are not strong, confident people. They're scared and weak. Zimmerman was a bully and he was scared. I don't mean just of Martin, but he is a fearful person.

 

Secondly, you can't make judgements about groups of people based on skin color or heritage (caribbean people are warriors, white people couldn't farm in africa, no Hispanic person in your neighborhood...) Or say stuff like some Hispanic people have put down their tacos (i mean omg dude) and then complain about racial prejudice. Take off you racism colored glasses and look at the world without filtering it through skin color first. What you see might shock you.

 

And just as a point of record, look up what happened when white farmers were kicked off farms in zimbabwe in 2000.

[lionbull]

Lionbull, bullies are not strong, confident people. They're scared and weak. Zimmerman was a bully and he was scared. I don't mean just of Martin, but he is a fearful person.

 

Secondly, you can't make judgements about groups of people based on skin color or heritage (caribbean people are warriors, white people couldn't farm in africa, no Hispanic person in your neighborhood...) Or say stuff like some Hispanic people have put down their tacos (i mean omg dude) and then complain about racial prejudice. Take off you racism colored glasses and look at the world without filtering it through skin color first. What you see might shock you.

 

And just as a point of record, look up what happened when white farmers were kicked off farms in zimbabwe in 2000.

 

I am not making judgments.

You assume I did. You are being defensive and it's clouding your reasoning. Have a joint.

I never said Caribbean people are warriors.

I said I have carib indian blood in me. That is not to say all Caribbean people in general are warlike though some may be.

Did you know some people are born with 6 fingers at times? LOL

That being said, whites in general cannot work as well as Africans in the sun (did I really have to say in general?)

Zimbabwe climate where the settlers were-The central part of Rhodesia is a plateau which varies in altitude between 900 m and 1,500 m (2,950 and 4,900 ft) above sea level. This gives the area a sub-tropical climate which is conducive to European settlement and agricultural practices.

Why do you think I have racist glasses? I don't have the mentality or the vibe of that. If you feel I do you might be the one who is scared. Please see the definition of scared below. I am talking like how I normally talk, why don't you?

Go to storm front and take a peek there if you think I see through racist glasses.

The point about putting down the tacos is that some are assimilating but why am I explaining that to you?

I don't need to explain it to my hispanic or white brothers.

 

Imwii, here is the definition of bully not my definition but THE definition LOL

The noun- A person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are weaker

The verb- Use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants

 

Imwii, here is the definition of scared

The adjective- Fearful; frightened

The synonym- frightened, afraid, fearful and or apprehensive

So, now that we know our definitions......Is that one and same? Let’s put it in a sentence for you.

A high school kid, who is a bully, is also scared of his victims as he is of everybody else. LOL

 

Let’s talk about Zimbabwe. Let be say I don't advocate violence and it does not matter who.

What you mean is, the remnant of white supremacy being kicked out. So this is an issue only now? why?

Imwii, you need to read all of the history before you come here and pick and choose what you post. Read it all it's pretty interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people_in_Zimbabwe

 

"As was the case (to varying degrees) in most European colonies in Africa and Asia, white immigrants took a privileged position in many areas of society. However, the position in Rhodesia was distinguished by the fact that the local settler minority entrenched its political, economic and social dominance of the country. Extensive areas of prime farmland were owned by whites. Senior positions in the public services were reserved for whites, and whites working in manual occupations enjoyed legal protection against job competition from black Africans. As time passed, this situation became increasingly unwelcome to the majority ethnic groups within the country and also to wide sections of international opinion, leading to the Rhodesian Bush War and eventually the Lancaster House Agreement."

 

"Over 3000 white soldiers who assisted in the BSAC takeover of the country were given land grants of 3,000 acres or more, and black people living on the land became tenants. Later, Land Apportionment and Tenure Acts reserved extensive low rainfall areas for black only tribal trust lands and high rainfall areas for white ownership, which gave rise to cases of black people being excluded from their own land. White settlers were attracted to Rhodesia by the availability of tracts of prime farmland that could be purchased from the state at low cost. This resulted in a major feature of the Rhodesian economy—the "white farm"."

 

"However, it should be noted that white people never amounted to more than 5.4% of the country's total population (that is, 270,000 white people divided by 5 million total population in 1970^[12]). Also, the white farming community never amounted to more than around 8% of the total white population and this proportion fell steadily after 1945 up to independence in 1980"

 

The media story about efficient white commercial farms is a half truth at best. in 1980 700,000 black farmers were squeezed onto 53% of the farmland, while 6,000 white farmers had 46% (and often the best land at that). That’s 46% imwii. You really think 6000 white farmers worked all that land LOL.

Just a little history for you

 

Zimbabwe's privately owned commercial farms were on the most fertile land, which began to be taken over by colonial farmers after 1890. Black communities were moved to less productive areas on communal land. I wonder how that happened!

Poor race relations before independence in 1980 and the slow pace of land reform afterwards also caused resentment.

Did you know that land just happens to be next to Platinum mine LOL? But who knew?

Read about Cecil Rhodes and De Beers Diamonds. This will tell you how why white folk came there in the first place.

This is all about wealth...The people there just want their share. If it were people from a different African country who owned the farms and had a disproportionate share in the real estate, the same thing would happen.