NikoFab Posted November 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Absolutely Nick... not sure I even understand the "weight saving" perspective?... even a few, several pounds. Are those trying to knock off a tenth down the strip? The air dam is one of those parts that receives some of the tuffest wear conditions, IMHO: stay w/ the urethane & the duribility of it. Thanx for bring'n this to us Nick, No problem Jerry...like I posted earlier in this thread...the goal here is to produce something that's cost effective in the LONG run. Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LEPORE Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 you can add me to the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clow340 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 at 300-400 before shipping i would be very interested for a stock style air dam. this is a necessary beauty panel imo as far as weight goes, trying to shave those extra ounces or at most 2 lbs from the air dam is not worth risking its strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOTTY Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 I don't know why the issue of weight came into play and it's become tiresome , the o.e.m item is way light as it is ,Nick , do your thing mang ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotStock88 Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 weight loss???!!!!??? DUMB - get over it. The OEM urethane is light enough!! An oem urethane is the ONLY way to go imo! I would love to see this happpen, even though I am not in need of one right this second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sellerfeller Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 keep the good stuff coming... might as well add me! finally got around to putting on the chin spoiler... on a broken air dam...lol... i'm in for urethane. 1 or 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikoFab Posted November 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 I don't know why the issue of weight came into play and it's become tiresome , the o.e.m item is way light as it is ,Nick , do your thing mang ! weight loss???!!!!??? DUMB - get over it. The OEM urethane is light enough!! An oem urethane is the ONLY way to go imo! I would love to see this happpen, even though I am not in need of one right this second. Well who know guys...maybe he's wanting to take it on the track or something...at any rate it's important to him, and I did ask for opinions on this thread after all. Now having said that...I'm still looking at urethane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTSi Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 I'm definitely interested in something like this.I wouldn't mind spending a few extra bucks to know that the product is going to last longer than the stock one.It seems hard to find good, quality replacement body panels for older cars that aren't the same older style materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikoFab Posted November 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 I'm definitely interested in something like this.I wouldn't mind spending a few extra bucks to know that the product is going to last longer than the stock one.It seems hard to find good, quality replacement body panels for older cars that aren't the same older style materials. Ok sir...I've got you marked down. Thanks for the interest! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burton Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 . And you also make a good point about the mold cost...most people don't realize that this is the bulk of the fabricator's expense...not the media used. Nick Yes, and it's not like it would be the same sort of mold that would be used to make FG or CF parts. Those use a simple laying technique, or at most, vaccum bagging. Urethane will require an injection mold which will mean the mold will have to be made of metal and just the hunk of tool steel will cost $10k at least Then you need to pay a CAD guy to design it and a mold builder to build it. The complexity of the part will reqire slides and lifters as well as an ejection system. It could easily be a $100k mold. At that rate, you gotta sell 200 of them for $500 each just to pay for the mold. Granted, the part cost for each part with press run time and material cost would probably in the $50 each neighborhood, but many production houses require run quantities of at least 100 and sometimes as many as a 1000 pc minimum just to put your mold in a press and run it. Even if you find a company that deals in uretahne bumpers and body kits that might be willing to take on something like this, they would need to have a 1000 pc order before ever starting to design a part or mold.Even if you worked at a tool and die shop and could build the mold for material cost only, you'd still have 10's of thousands of dollars into it before you ever made a single part. I know, I worked in a tool and die shop and could have built it for material cost only. It would take you years to sell enough airdams just to break even on your R&D and mold costs. Not trying to be a downer, but with nearly 15 years cutting cavity on plastic injection molds and being a card holding moldmaker, I'm just being a realist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikoFab Posted November 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Yes, and it's not like it would be the same sort of mold that would be used to make FG or CF parts. Those use a simple laying technique, or at most, vaccum bagging. Urethane will require an injection mold which will mean the mold will have to be made of metal and just the hunk of tool steel will cost $10k at least Then you need to pay a CAD guy to design it and a mold builder to build it. The complexity of the part will reqire slides and lifters as well as an ejection system. It could easily be a $100k mold. At that rate, you gotta sell 200 of them for $500 each just to pay for the mold. Granted, the part cost for each part with press run time and material cost would probably in the $50 each neighborhood, but many production houses require run quantities of at least 100 and sometimes as many as a 1000 pc minimum just to put your mold in a press and run it. Even if you find a company that deals in uretahne bumpers and body kits that might be willing to take on something like this, they would need to have a 1000 pc order before ever starting to design a part or mold.Even if you worked at a tool and die shop and could build the mold for material cost only, you'd still have 10's of thousands of dollars into it before you ever made a single part. I know, I worked in a tool and die shop and could have built it for material cost only. It would take you years to sell enough airdams just to break even on your R&D and mold costs. Not trying to be a downer, but with nearly 15 years cutting cavity on plastic injection molds and being a card holding moldmaker, I'm just being a realist.And this is what most people don't realize. It seems as if most just think it's the cost of material...of course most people aren't mold-makers, so they have to be educated on the topic...just as I have to be educated on mechanical items...because I'm no mechanic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89PalermoSHP Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Mark is 100% correct. I too worked in a mold shop for 8 years and the size of the tooling required to make one of these parts would be huge. Chances are good you could use a P20 tool steel for some savings but this project would require a big fanatic of these cars who won the lottery. There are quite a few places Ive seen lately in job searches who specialize in rapid tooling. I would get together a package you could send them, preferrably an accurate CAD file, and get some quotes. I still think it might be cheaper to approach Mitsubishi and beg them to either make more airdams or sell their tooling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikoFab Posted November 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) Mark is 100% correct. I too worked in a mold shop for 8 years and the size of the tooling required to make one of these parts would be huge. Chances are good you could use a P20 tool steel for some savings but this project would require a big fanatic of these cars who won the lottery. There are quite a few places Ive seen lately in job searches who specialize in rapid tooling. I would get together a package you could send them, preferrably an accurate CAD file, and get some quotes. I still think it might be cheaper to approach Mitsubishi and beg them to either make more airdams or sell their tooling. Agreed. Rapid tooling is another opiton I'm researching...a mold is looking to be just too costly. Rapid tooling might be ideal for our situation, since it's often used in prototyping runs of usually 100 or less...which I'm confident is the number range we're looking at for our little community. Edited November 16, 2012 by NikoFab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89PalermoSHP Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Keep in mind rapid tooling and a mold would be the same animal in this situation. Like Burton stated, there is no other way to produce a urethane part without using injection molding. Someone should really try contacting mitsubishi. I would guess their tooling still exists? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshajlij Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Ok, add me to the list too. I like the momentum, but I think we have enough suggestions. No need to shoot the carcass. Urethane...waiting for final cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzrider Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 interested god knows mines beat the heck up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikoFab Posted November 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 Gentlemen, I've spoken with several manufacturers around the country, and indeed right here in Houston. Did my best regarding wheeling and dealing and here's what we're looking at. These quotes are for an injection molded urethane (70 Shore D) unit produced at OEM thickness and specs, and I have scaled each quote according to order volume vs. unit cost (not including shipping). If we ordered 200 units, the individual unit cost would be very close to $570.00 each If we ordered 300 units, the individual unit cost woud be very close to $403.00 each If we ordered 400 units, the individual unit cost would be very close to $320.00 each So as you see, our predominant enemy here is volume. Give me some feedback on this fellas... Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzrider Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 Not looking promising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikoFab Posted November 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 Not looking promising. No not too promising with urethane...but i'm looking into a particular variant of ABS plastic. ABS is an outgrowth from the original modification process of polystyrene (a type of plastic closely related to urethane, as far as performance traits go). Because of its predominant 3-part makup however, ABS is able to be mix-adjusted to bridge the 80 Shore D measurement, commonly regarded as the "wall" between urethane and polystyrenes/traditional plastics. As such, ABS can be modified to bridge the wall and take on the positive traits of both urethane and polystyrene. For those of you asking what the hell I'm talking about, the Shore D rating index (as well as the Shore A and Rockwell R rating indexes) indicates the proprietary characteristics of differing polyurethanes and plastics. As a general rule, the lower the Shore rating, the more pliable/flexible the media. Conversely, the higher the Shore rating, the more rigid the media. Most ABS applications fall in the 85-95 Shore D range. However, as stated above, it's possible to adjust the ratios of the acrylonitrile, butadiene, and styrene per the application in question, in order to produce an ABS piece around the 75-80 Shore D range. To give you some real-world comparisons...Rubber typically stops at the 40 Shore D mark Polyurethanes exist between the 40 and 80 Shore D marks, with the majority of application falling between 65 and 80 Shore D Teflons typically reside near 65 Shore D Polypropylenes (Rubbermaid products, automotive panelling, flexible packaging, etc.), typically reside near 75 Shore D Polystyrenes (plastic outdoor furniture, CD and DVD jewel cases, etc.) typically reside near 85 Shore D Acrylics typically reside near 130 Rockwell R (which translates into approximately 115 to 120 Shore D) So as you see, a particular mix ratio of ABS can produce a media with certain urethanic properties (durability, flexibility, resiliency, abrasion and impact resistance, and tear resistance) as well as traditional plastic properties (strength, economical, easily moulded, excellent finishing, and low thermal expansion). ABS also takes paint readily, does not decompose, and is chemical resistant. ABS also has a distinct advantage over urethane in the cost department. ABS can be vacuum or thermo molded...which is considerably less costly than the injection molding required by urethane. I do not have a firm cost on an ABS variant version of our front air dam yet...but hope to have one soon after crunching some more numbers. What I need to know is...are there enough of you willing to go ABS to make a worth-while group buy? Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOTTY Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) To sell even 200 units would take a while and i'm talking in years not months even at the very fair prices your quoting Nick , like i said before some guys @ girls on here would be willing to pay but sadly i don't see enough of us to make this a worthwhile venture for you. Edited November 16, 2012 by SOTTY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOTTY Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 Oh and MAYBE do a "test waters" group buy thread solely dependent on number of peeps interested ? before taking the" going into production plunge" , it's an idea which may or may not be a good one as some will for sure back out when it comes down to coughing up the $dough . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burton Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 Yeah, no way you'll sell 200 of them quickly, let alone 400 of them. I've been here for 10 years+ and have seen the last of the OEM airdams sold off over that time. I doubt over that 10 years that even 100 OEM airdams have been sold, and all of them have been $400 or less. The rapid tooling is an option, but even a rapid tooling mold will be extremely expensive, and aren't made to produce high quality parts... more for like prototype stuff. If you want a good urethane airdam, you will want one made on a mold that can handle high pressure injection. Low pressures like what would be used on a rapid tooling mold are just not enough to pack the part full and make a strong, durable part. A "prototype" urethane part will be weak compared to a part made on a production mold. Going ABS will save you material cost, but will still require a plastic injection mold that can handle high pressure. ABS might save you $15-20 on material cost, but the tooling cost would be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuze Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 Just my .02 but I've bought about four OEM airdams, they are excellent quality in urethane with gelcoat. I also now run a MK1 CF airdam and it has taken some hits and the only thing that happened was the resin chipped a little on a corner. CF is a tough material if thick enough. I coughed up probably $400 or more for that airdam, and would again if another unique part like it came along, that's just how it is with these cars, strike while the iron is hot. Why not come up with something that is an upgrade from the factory part? Removable integrated splitter? Larger opening? Lower chin? Thicker lower edge? if not, might as well make a one piece 86 airdam because those are the only OEM style ones you can't get. The Jhanson drift bumpers were HAWT... just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_Venable Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) Skip to about the 5 minute mark, Stillen makes low volume urethane parts while not using $100K+ molds. I'm sure the machine injecting the urethane isn't cheap, but might be worth some further investigation. Hell, maybe run a GP through them, just a thought. Edited November 16, 2012 by D_Venable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komeuppance Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 If we ordered 400 units, the individual unit cost would be very close to $320.00 eachNice. I knew it could be done!! Skip to about the 5 minute mark, Stillen makes low volume urethane parts while not using $100K+ molds. I'm sure the machine injecting the urethane isn't cheap, but might be worth some further investigation. Hell, maybe run a GP through them, just a thought. Good idea. -Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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