Horrible noises...

[hippynerd]

My location is clearly posted. Ive been on this forum for like 10 years.

[hippynerd]

I wasnt able to get the car to start, i dont know why. While cranking it, I tried the clutch, and it seems clunking or knocking or however you want to describe the noise, it seems to go away. Im guessing that is the clutch fork hitting the clutch housing or something. I have to play car shuffle today to avoid getting cars towed. If they tagged my cars before I pulled out the motor, it would have been easy, but between hill, and cars not working and cars not having a motor at all, its going to be a busy day for me.

 

Hopefully I will get the 86 back in the driveway where I can work on it again soon.

[hippynerd]

Hrm. the 83 is sitting where I can work on it, and the motor for it is in the garage just a few feet away. Maybe I should consider getting the motor back in the 83 while its in the driveway.

[hippynerd]

While the 83 is in the driveway, what do I need to do to get this motor back in action. I think the minimum is a set of new pistons. I"ve measured them, and they seem to be real close, however one of them is scuffing on the cylinder wall, and nearest that I can tell that means that the skirt is collapsed on it (though all the pistons seem to measure about the same. My guess is the cylinder wall in #3 must be smaller than the others, which is why its the only one that is scuffing.

 

I can take the rings off one piston, and put it in each cylinder, and measure the gap with feeler gauges. I should probably get a new feeler gauge. but I guess thats the next step.

I think they said that 006 is too much, 002 is what I want.

 

Is that about right? What if they measure too big? do I need to bore over, and get oversized pistons and rings?

Is there a reasonable chance that just a new set of pistons and rods will do it?

[hippynerd]

I did some measurements. I used some digital callipers, and measured the top of the bore, the piston tops, and the skirt bottoms.

 

It looks like piston # 3 is a tiny bit smaller than the others, but the block is pretty near 3.583

 

Here are my notes:

............ Bore Skirt Piston top

Piston #1 3.582 3581 3558

 

Piston #2 3.583 3580 3556

 

Piston #3 3.583 3579 3553

 

Piston #4 3.583 3580 3561

 

I would like to measure deeper down the cylinder walls, but I dont think I have a good way to do that.

Edited November 4, 2014 by nerdbouy

[questtuner82]

Wow if ur piston measurements are that far out from piston top to skirt u need to get another set of pistons. Do you have a harbor freight around you? If so go buy a digital micrometer for around 15$ and get better readings. I have a set of pistons and reconditioned rods for sale. The pistons measure perfectly at 3.579 on top and on the skirts. Ive measured them several times and the rods are reconditioned with new stock rod bolts

[hippynerd]

Yeah, in my measurements the tops have the biggest variation, but maybe i didnt do a very good job. I tried to make measurements in a consistent repeatable way. I also tried to find the smallest places to measure, and put pressure on the calliper to make it fit tight.

 

I looked and I didnt see any 4" mics on the harbor freight web site. I have a 1" mic but its not big enough to measure the piston.

 

I should take the rings off, and measure the gap with feeler gauge to get the most accurate measurement probably.

 

I do have brand new chrome plate rings that are stock size, I would like it best if I dont have to send the block for machining, so it would be best for the budget if I can stick to stock sizes.

[Dad]

Top of pistons where rings go are normally smaller. In te 2.6 they are about .020 small than the skirt. I don't know whay a shop can't check them, but lookinh at that scored piston it needs replaced. Sell one car to use the $$ to fix the other and have the machine shop build it. just an idea.

[hippynerd]

I hate to sell a starion, i will only get scrap weight value for it, and I would rather keep the parts than sell it for scrap.

 

I do plan on selling the 86, thats why I bought it, was to repair it and get it back on the road to sell. After a couple years of not being able to sell it at when I was only 3000 bucks into it, I started to drive it, seeing as how I was going to lose money on the car, I figured I could at least enjoy it a little. I only put a few thousand miles on it before I modified it, then it was a lot more fun (and only increased the cost another thousand bucks or so...) Now im well over 6k, I will never see that money.

 

It looks like this engine just needs new pistons, then it can be re-assembled, and stuck back in the 83. Since the 83 is currently in the driveway, and the motor is in the garage, it seems like i should take care of it instead of fixing the clutch fork/bearing issue in the 86. I was planning on having the 83 towed out of town where I wont be able to work on it, but the city wont try to it off.

 

Im probably going to pull the motor to fix the clutch fork in the 86. Its easier to pull the transmission, except that Im on a hill, and I dont like being under the car even on flat ground. I dont need to pull the motor entirely out, but I can lift it and pull it forward after I take the radiator and fan off. I hope there are marks so that I can see what I need to fix.

 

I hate to tow the 83 out of town, then back after I get pistons, thats a lot of hassle, but the tags are expired, and thats a couple hundred bucks that I dont have right now, and with the motor out, its hard to keep that car from getting towed. Now that I think about it, its going to need a lot of stuff, a new gasket kit, alternator, and the fuel system is probably failing (damn 83 style injectors!) So, maybe I should have the 83 towed off until I have better funds. and try to get the 86 repaired and running.

 

The shop did check the pistons/rods. stamped them, measured them, and gave them back with the motor after it was honed and cleaned. The piston maybe looks worse than it really is, the scuffing is very light, but the oil on it makes it looks deep. Anyway, it looks like a minimum of a new set of pistons and rods. hopefully I can get by with used stock ones or some inexpensive alternative.

[hippynerd]

Ive moved the 83 to the street for now, and the 86 back into the driveway.

 

I think the problem is clutchfork or throwout bearing, so I need to crack that sucker open again. I have an engine hoist, but thats the hard way. Im trying to find a set of ramps, I think i maybe able to fix it by pulling the transmission back, instead of pulling the motor forward. That seems like the easy way.

[hippynerd]

So, is the gear oils supposed to pour out the back of the transmission when you lower it?

What a mess.

[STARION_NORTH]

Yes

[hippynerd]

Well, I guess thats the best news that ive heard in a while. I think I drained it last time, because i was worried that it would spill out of the shifter hole.

 

I pulled the clutchfork, and bearing. I've compared them to the one on the 83, and I havnt found any marks (like I would expect if metal is hitting metal), but I can see that the bearing thats in the 83 is not as thick as the new one that I put in the 86. I may just put the 83 one in, and see how it does, but Im afraid that this isnt where the noise is coming from.

[questtuner82]

Look at the metal plate between the trans and engine block. Is it hitting the flywheel? I had a bent one on my parts car and thats why i bought it as a parts car. The guy i bought it from thought the motor had a rod knock. It was only the plate hitting the back of the flywheel. Also i would check your clutch plate and the pressure plate. I had a clutch plate come apart at tue sprung hub on the plate itself and made a knocking noise. Do you have the transmission out? If so check everything clutch related and also check the trans. My trans made a bad knocking after i blew third gear out and it did it in neutral but only if you didnt press the clutch in.

[questtuner82]

I also read somewhere that the 83 clutch fork and throw out bearing is different than the newer ones

[hippynerd]

The clutchforks look about the same, except that the one in the 83 had the clip smashed in, and the 86 had the clip pulled out a little bit, and some marks, but after re-fitting the fork, I dont see how those marks could have hit anything. The metal plate is not hitting anything on either engine, and the lower inspection plate isnt installed, so its not hitting anything. The current clutch and pressure plate were not making that noise in the 83 before I pulled it from that car. The other engine has a resurfaced flywheel, new plate and clutch.

 

I put it back together, and tried to put the tranny back in the car, but it was not on the jack right, and I couldnt get it in. I ended up dropping the transmission off the jack. I caught it so it didnt break, but its leaking fluid all over the driveway. I have some bolts and stuff under that kitty litter thats on top of the oil to sort out too.

 

Its freaking cold too

Im a bit grumpy too

[hippynerd]

I got the transmission back in after messing around with clutchforks. Everything seemed to be working right, I cant find anything wrong, so I put it back together. I got it all bolted back up, and cleaned up some of the mess, and moved the car off the ramps.

 

Its not starting, im not sure why, I can see some gas is leaking near the fitting near the filter, so im guessing I have gas, and fuel pressure. It only turns over for 30 seconds or so before the battery is dead and needs charging. That has been frustrating too.

 

It seems to make the clunking sound when cranking over and not starting, so im pretty sure the horrible noises will return as soon as I can get it to start.

[questtuner82]

U sure your flywheel is good

[station]

Had the gear oil pour all over me when I was getting the gearbox out. Old gear fluid It NEVER comes out of clothes. I have had a t-shirt hung outside for about 6 years in all weathers and it still reeks of transmission fluid!

[hippynerd]

Im fairly sure that both flywheels are fine, I've put 2 differnet motors in this car, and both make the noise. It seems unlikely that both motor are the problem.

The gear oil was actually fresh, I put new oil last year I think, It hasnt gone anywhere since then, so that oil that spilled was nice and clean, and it does make your hair real soft, but it smells nasty, even when its fresh.

 

I may get a chance to try the car again. I have a good battery now, so things should be easier.

[hippynerd]

I've just tried starting the car, and now it wont turn over unless I have the clutch pushed in (even though its in neutral...)

 

I really dont know whats going on, but Im pretty sure that I will have to take the transmission out again.

 

It will be a cold day in hell when I take out another transmission.

Im going to take out another transmission today.

[hippynerd]

Since I last posted, I have taken the transmission out, took the clutch and flywheel off both motors, and put the re-surfaced flywheel, and new clutch/plate on the car. I put the throwout bearing and clutch fork from the 83 in the car also. I also bleed the clutch hydraulic lines.

 

When I try to start it, it wont turn over unless I push in the clutch. If I dont push in the clutch, you can hear it try to crank, and stop. If I push in the clutch, it turns over.

 

What could I possibly have done wrong? Im so sick and tired of pulling engines and transmissions and still having the same damn problems. I have no money, so I cant take it anywhere to have someone look at it. I could take the motor out again, or the tranmission out again, but that hasnt fixed anything yet, and it takes a hell of a lot of effort each time that I do it.

[STARION_NORTH]

Don't take this the wrong way, but the car was not in gear while you were trying to crank it I hope? Frustration can cause us to overlook simple things sometimes.

[hippynerd]

 

I dont hear the knocking sound, but I have a new problem in that it wont crank with the clutch out.

[scott87star]

Well, it certainly appears to be releasing so we can assume you've got it back together correctly. If the drive shaft is truly disconnected AND the engine won't turn over with the clutch disengaged I'd say your transmission has issues. Serious issues, the kind you can see when you drop the bottom pan. Like forks that are no longer connected and more than one gear is selected.