this Egypt thing

[Fanta]

http://blogs.colgate.edu/khanegyptprimer.pdf

 

I would say that is a pretty concise and fair breakdown on the country currently - it's written by an egyptian history professor ( also an egyptian )

 

"Background Information on Egypt

By Noor-Aiman Khan, PhD

Department of History

Colgate University

 

Egypt has about 80 million people and is the most populated Arab country. It is the

second-most populated African country. The per capita income is about $5,500, but the

income gap is very large, with the vast majority of people living on about $5 a day. It is a

net exporter of petroleum, but not a major one. Many Egyptians work in the petro states

or the West and send money back for their families. The three largest sources of hard

currency in Egypt are tourism, the Suez Canal, and remittances from abroad. The literacy

rate is between 60–70%, pretty good for Africa. About 85–87% of Egyptians are Sunni

Muslim and 10–12% are Coptic Christian. Egypt receives 1.3 billion in military aid from

the United States.

 

Despite being technically independent since 1922, Egypt has never experienced a real

democracy. It was under British colonial control until the Free Officers Revolution in

1952. Since Nasser and the Free Officers were pretty popular, the time is often looked

back on nostalgically, especially by the lower classes, but it was a military government.

Since Nasser’s death in 1970, Egypt was ruled by Anwar Sadat until he was assassinated

in 1981, and since then, by M. Hosni Mubarak. Upon coming to power, Mubarak instated

an Emergency Law, which suspended many constitutional protections and basically gave

the state complete jurisdiction for anything falling under the category “security.”

Presently, there are no guaranteed rights to privacy, free speech, assembly, press, or even

a trial. Although there are a number of members of the judiciary who have tried to

maintain its independence from the state, they are regularly thwarted and often removed

or worse.

 

The political party that controls the country is the National Democratic Party. Other

parties are allowed but kept weak; the Muslim Brotherhood is technically banned but still

the biggest party in opposition. When the elections are relatively free, they carry about

20% of the votes. There are periodic “elections” for a parliament that has no real power,

and Mubarak, now 82 years old, is “re-elected” regularly with more than 90% of the vote.

Recently, it has been clear that he expects his son Gamal to be “elected” to succeed him,

although there has always been a chance that another military strongman will take over.

(Gamal is not from the military.) Among the major contenders are Omar Suleiman, who

was just named vice president; Ahmed Shafiq, who has just been made prime minister,

and Sami Annan, the Army Chief of Staff, who recently visited the United States.

Why are Egyptians in the streets protesting?

 

First of all, they want a real democracy. No one is fooled by the “elections” that just play

musical chairs with the people already in power. They want real choices. Yes, many want

the choice to vote for the Muslim Brotherhood. But that has not been the major theme in

these protests, and in fact has been less important than anyone expected. The real issue is

that the people want fair and free elections with all choices on the table. They want what

most Americans want here.

 

Protesters also oppose the use of torture by the police, whose actions are protected by the

Emergency Law. Abuse by police has become endemic to the point that no one expects

not to be tortured if arrested. And the reasons for arrest can be as simple as not moving

quickly enough out of the way of a police officer. People disappear and die in police

custody on a regular basis, and if the “arrest” is for a supposed “political crime,” there is

very little the family or even lawyers can do. It is estimated that there are close to 10,000

political prisoners in Egypt at any given time. See “We are all Kahled Said” on Facebook

for more on the issue of torture in Egypt.

 

Thirdly, protesters oppose corruption. It is almost impossible to get anything done in

Egypt without knowing someone or bribing someone. This is prevalent at every level of

society. You need to bribe government officials to run a business, get a permit for

anything, avoid a trumped up fine, get or keep a public sector job, or even get a driver's

license in fewer than five visits. Education is supposedly free, but government schools

are so bad that only the most desperate will send their children. For example, the average

class size of a 7th grade Arabic-language class in a public school in Cairo (according to

my sister-in-law, who is a teacher) is about 70 students. The only way to pass the national

tests is to hire private tutors. Health care is also expensive and corrupt. You literally have

to budget about 25% of hospital costs for an operation for “tips” so that nurses and

doctors will help you. Private care is better, but no less corrupt. Neither nurses nor

teachers are paid a living wage, so it can be said that without the supplemental income

from tutoring, tips, or bribes, they might be better off begging in the streets. (Fact: a high

school teacher’s salary after 10 years of experience is about 400 LE/month in Cairo, plus

about another 1500 LE twice a year as a bonus after the testing season. The salary doesn’t

go far, as a kilogram of beef is about 60LE today. Roundtrip fare using overcrowded

public transport from a slum to work might run as low as 20 LE/month.)

 

Living conditions are deplorable. If one is lucky enough to afford to buy a flat, the first

thing to do is check the plumbing. Usually, it is so bad it has to be torn out and reinstalled

— and this is in the case of a new building. (Everyone knows the plumbing installed by

the contractor will be defective; it would be cheaper to not have it in the first place, but

someone had to do that work in order for someone else to get their cut from the financing

agency in the government.) To install a new pipe the flat owner must pay at least three

different people bribes to get the paperwork to do it “legally.” Oh, and make sure to have

the forms in triplicate; someone will demand an original “to check” and then there will be

a fee to pay to get it back. Buildings literally fall down in Egypt all the time — How can

quality codes be enforced with this kind of corruption? The list goes on.

 

Connected to the corruption is the bureaucratic inefficiency. It takes hours just to pay an

electric or phone bill. Getting a copy of a birth certificate will require a full day off of

work, trekking to multiple offices, plus the bribes. And the bureaucracy can’t be avoided,

because everything needs government pieces of paper. (Then there’s the Eagle Stamp,

which some call the “vulture stamp,” held by only one trusted flunky per government

office.)

 

A personal example: For my Egyptian driver's license I needed to go to the Interior

Ministry to get a stamped copy of my marriage certificate to prove I was Egyptian

(though I am married to the Egyptian whose name is on my Egyptian passport, which I

had.) Next I went to the Foreign Affairs Ministry to get them to translate the marriage

certificate, and then to another office to get it stamped. Then I had to bribe someone to

say I had driven a stick shift for the test, because my own car was an automatic. Then I

was told I couldn't put my degree on the license (occupation is listed on these things)

because it was from the United States. Despite having a Fulbright to Cairo University

and all the documentation from the Bi-National Commission, I was supposed to take my

degree to the Ministry of Education to get it endorsed, and then do another set of

acrobatics. I decided it was easier to be listed as “uneducated” on the license.

Another example: My sister-in-law was born on Feb. 4, but the certificate of passing high

school has a mark on it so it looks like Feb. 14. After weeks of going between various

government offices to get this fixed so that her college degree would be registered

correctly, we finally gave up. We made a mark in front of the 4 on her birth certificate

and enrollment paper. So now her birth date is the 14th. It’s easier to forge than to correct

a government mistake. Imagine this kind of rigmarole for every bit of paperwork. The

rich pay poor people to stand in line for them!

 

Finally, the protesters are fed up with poverty. Prices have risen over 12% in the past few

months, but food has risen the fastest. Meat has gone up 23%, sugar about 30% and

tomatoes even more. In a country where most of the population spends about 50% of its

income on food, this has been devastating. People can’t put food on their family, as “W”

would say. Yes, things are tough everywhere, but they are very bad in Egypt, and the

government is spending billions on weapons and the security apparatus which protects

them from the people more than it protects Egypt from any external threat. Plus, the fat

cats in government and their “private sector” cronies are very visibly flaunting their illgotten

gains. The gap between the rich and the overwhelming majority of poor is huge,

but now the middle class is shrinking quickly — sliding down, not going up. There are

thousands of luxury housing units going up all over Cairo while the majority of the

people are packed like sardines in tiny apartments with deteriorating infrastructure. “Let

them eat cake” is the government’s attitude.

 

If all the above sounds exhausting, it is. Living like this has led to a sense of desperation

and humiliation for the Egyptians. The people really believe that their kids have little

chance of having decent lives in their own country. Common people feel they are denied

basic dignity, they have to “yes massa” every time they deal with any representative of

the government, or anyone with marginally more power in this corrupt system than they

have. It is soul-destroying. I wept when I saw the crowds refuse to back down from the

security services. So did almost every other Egyptian I know, including those — like me

— who were not born to Egypt but fell in love with it and its amazingly generous, kind,

and — it turns out — brave people.

 

So who do the Egyptians want in charge?

 

Good question: why don't we let them vote on it? Realistically, it will take at least a few

months to arrange for free elections. Until then, Egyptians will accept a transitional

government they trust to turn over power to a new elected civilian government. They

might even trust the military to do it, but I don't think so. The two most-trusted people by

the masses are probably Mohamad al-Baradei, the former head of the IAEA, and Amr

Moussa, the head of the Arab League. Amr Mousa is very popular; al-Baradei is more

well-known abroad. Maybe another figure will appear. Opposition leaders such as

Ayman Nour would probably not want the job, as they would want to run for Parliament.

 

Could elections be held fairly?

 

I don’t know. Egypt does have some reliable figures in the judiciary, but I personally

would prefer international observers. Would the Egyptian masses? Again, I don't know.

Most Egyptians I know distrust international organizations and are very leery of threats to

their country's sovereignty, perhaps for good reason.

 

What should the U.S. and other governments do?

 

Support democracy. The people are actually quite clear. It’s time to stop supporting

dictators who are not more reliable than a free people. And it’s time we stopped thinking

our foreign policy and economic concerns should be more important to other countries

than their own. As for the economic aid, that’s for U.S. interests — the freely elected

leaders of the U.S. can decide what to do about that. But, we can’t buy Egypt anymore."

Edited February 4, 2011 by Fanta

[Shelby]

sorry but i beleave little from history is gona be of much help,, for one these young educate'd people have never before been in the country, no one knows what they are capable of doing or will do , at no time in history have people been able to be instantly in touch with each other

at the same time never before have the people been able to show the world what is going on at any given moment , the internet may be turn'd off but cell phones can still record what happens and sooner or later the truth will come out and some will have to pay the price for their wrong doings

 

i hope the United States learn'd from what they did in afganistan after Russa left and so did we,, we left them standing no help , with out so much as a wish you well , we drop'd the ball big time then , i just hope we don't do it again

[Edde]

sorry but i beleave little from history is gona be of much help,, for one these young educate'd people have never before been in the country, no one knows what they are capable of doing or will do , at no time in history have people been able to be instantly in touch with each other

at the same time never before have the people been able to show the world what is going on at any given moment , the internet may be turn'd off but cell phones can still record what happens and sooner or later the truth will come out and some will have to pay the price for their wrong doings

 

i hope the United States learn'd from what they did in afganistan after Russa left and so did we,, we left them standing no help , with out so much as a wish you well , we drop'd the ball big time then , i just hope we don't do it again

 

 

I'm surprised at you shelby for even asking that question http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif

 

 

I think history tells us that our involvement in the middle east is always with negative results.

[Fanta]

I think history tells us that our involvement in the middle east is always with negative results.

 

http://i.imgur.com/QljzW.jpg

[Shelby]

lol when the shooting starts, those signs will change to read US where are you....? help !

[Shelby]

what it all over and history already,, from the stand point of new news it looks that way,, they have shown the same vedio's over and over and many are a week old ,,, must be a different generation of reporters then we've seen in other wars

 

now get the f out and cover the news or come home and let some one else do it

[Fanta]

Bill I think you forget that Fanta is prime age for Service,

and probably some of his motivation for trying to make peace where there hasn't been for decades.

 

Just to make it known to you - if it wasn't for the fact that my status, I currently would be serving. Voluntarily.

[TexasTieaga]

Kill cell phones and the internet and you enter the great age of the HACKERS which will go down in history books how they took over the US. I'll pre-order my copy of the documentary and the movie to be released 3 months after it happens. I want a poster for my wall too with frame. Just my .02

[Bill Hincher]

It's not the poor or impoverished people the US government worries about. It's the "middle class", they have the poor in their back pocket and as long as they keep getting money from the government thats where they will stay. The middle class are the ones being squeezed out of existence. The "rich" are too afraid of loosing what they have to do anything for now. The problem is the middle class in this country are some of the only people in a position to do anything about it. They have just enough money to be able to arm themselves with real weapons, not "strapped up with a 9" but, at the same time they don't have so much that they would rather the status quo remained.

 

Now consider this, over in Egypt you have unarmed protesters and the police, secret or otherwise, can't stop the protesters, what would happen if the police started using tear gas and live rounds on people here? They might win the first round simply due to shock value, but what happens the next time when the protesters are better armed than the police? If this country really wanted to overthrow it's government there is nothing they can really do about it. But you say, AH! what happens when the military is mobilized to stop the protest/rebellion? The answer, do you really think that some 19 year old kid is going to shoot people he could know? Why? Because the government tells him to? The same government that has wasted how many 19 year old kids in Afganistan and Iraq and pays the soldiers at a pitiful rate for what they do. I would put money on the idea that a good percentage of the military that is stationed here in the US would join a revolution instead of helping put it down.

 

Just my opinion.

 

I thought the secret police armed with camera's was the most intimidating of all! Mobaroch knows he is in the wolrds spot light, but armed with pictures of the protesters and finding out who they are will lead to 'private' discussions

The middle class doesnt need weapons, they can hire lawyers.

[Bill Hincher]

headline news today

 

AMMAN, Jordan – Some of America's Mideast allies have been pressing the Obama administration to go easy on Egypt's embattled leader and allow for a gradual transition of power.

 

Moderate Arab countries such as Jordan and Saudi Arabia have warned Washington that an abrupt departure of Hosni Mubarak

 

 

hahahahaha told ya

[Shelby]

i realy hate to see this but it's all been for nothing ,,this peacefull demonstration is their undoing,, if they would have march'd on the palice

and confront'd him directly and force'd the army to do something ,it may have turn'd out diff, but as it is he's still there and only speaking with hot air

 

with out blood shed there can be no revolution esp in that country

 

wait and see he'l do nothing that he has promise'd http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif

[Fanta]

i realy hate to see this but it's all been for nothing ,,this peacefull demonstration is their undoing,, if they would have march'd on the palice

and confront'd him directly and force'd the army to do something ,it may have turn'd out diff, but as it is he's still there and only speaking with hot air

 

with out blood shed there can be no revolution esp in that country

 

wait and see he'l do nothing that he has promise'd http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif

 

There has been quite a bit of bloodshed. Police vans ramming and running over people. One guy was shot on site after opening up his jacket and showing he had nothing on him to harm them. Another police van after running people over was caught and tipped over.

[Shelby]

and this was not to be expect'd http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif

,

Fanta if it's been more like 2k kill'd it'd have been more along what i would have expect'd , point is before it can be over a great many will die , the army is gona have to be force'd to take sides if they ever expect to win their rights

 

this man is solid in his belief that he is right and will not step down peaceably

[Guest]

and this was not to be expect'd http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif

,

Fanta if it's been more like 2k kill'd it'd have been more along what i would have expect'd , point is before it can be over a great many will die , the army is gona have to be force'd to take sides if they ever expect to win their rights

 

this man is solid in his belief that he is right and will not step down peaceably

 

It maybe that someone is whispering in his ears, "go ahead, stay! You know you want to. You're in power, you don't need to go. We'll back you up.!" (Cough cough U.S. cough Obama)

 

The U.S. is scared that Muslims are behind this and they are the ones that will be left in power once this dude bounces. That's the reason why the U.S. has backed this dude for so long.

[Shelby]

i don't know lifting one finger to help this guy now,, would spell the end of Obama's chances for another run in office .

 

 

just think he could easily make every person in his country a millionare and still have moneys to last his family for ever

Edited February 10, 2011 by Shelby

[Guest]

i don't know lifting one finger to help this guy now,, would spell the end of Obama's chances for another run in office .

 

 

just think he could easily make every person in his country a millionare and still have moneys to last his family for ever

 

Yeah, but that would not be a democracy. That be socialism and we don't need that either. If we had a different president, one with a little more cajones, this situation would be a little different.

[Shelby]

this is not our country,,we do have to deal with whom ever comes out on top but thats just how it is

it's not our place or job to control how this ends

 

and i know that handing out money would not make a demorocy , i was just pointing out how easily he could have been the leader still and be every one's hero

[Shelby]

well looks like things are not going too well, tomarrow may be a real bad day

[chiplee]

well looks like things are not going too well, tomarrow may be a real bad day

 

So far I've made about $1300 trading in and out of a double leveraged oil exchange traded fund due to the volatility this is causing in oil prices. Should add another $200 or so to that tomorrow. Does that make me cold hearted?

[Fanta]

So far I've made about $1300 trading in and out of a double leveraged oil exchange traded fund due to the volatility this is causing in oil prices. Should add another $200 or so to that tomorrow. Does that make me cold hearted?

 

Not really. Simple economics. A country's revolution has had a direct result on a product that you have a stake of ownership in. That's all.

[Shelby]

So far I've made about $1300 trading in and out of a double leveraged oil exchange traded fund due to the volatility this is causing in oil prices. Should add another $200 or so to that tomorrow. Does that make me cold hearted?

 

 

when you think i was refering to people being hurt or kill'd

 

and you respond with " look how much money i made "

 

i beleave your reply makes it's own statement i don't need to

[Edde]

Looks like it's getting done now. Stickin' it to the man. Gotta love it.

 

And if religeous extremists wind up in power, it'll be a lot like it is here http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

[Starfighterpilot]

Today with the ouster of Mubarak, Egypt has come to a cross roads that will profoundly effect it's future for the next 50 to 100 years - if not longer.

 

Will the Egyption government evolve to something similiar to the SECULAR REPUBLICAN form of government that came to be established in the Phillipine Islands after their revolution; or will it evolve into a form of THEOCRATIC, 7th century authoritarian style of government very similiar to what happened in Iran in 1979?

 

It is going to very interesting to see what evolves in the next year or so.

 

If Egypt turns into a Islamic Theocracy what does that mean for Egypt, the Middle East, and the rest of the world?

 

If the Muslim Brotherhood is neutralized, I see a perhaps good responsible pro western secular government evolving. If it's not neutralized then it's a craps shoot - and I don't like the odds.

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

 

BTW - Lebanon and Tunisia are already falling to the Islamic Theocracy

Edited February 12, 2011 by Starfighterpilot

[Caliber308]

Today with the ouster of Mubarak, Egypt has come to a cross roads that will profoundly effect it's future for the next 50 to 100 years - if not longer.

 

Will the Egyption government evolve to something similiar to the SECULAR REPUBLICAN form of government that came to be established in the Phillipine Islands after their revolution; or will it evolve into a form of THEOCRATIC, 7th century authoritarian style of government very similiar to what happened in Iran in 1979?

 

It is going to very interesting to see what evolves in the next year or so.

 

If Egypt turns into a Islamic Theocracy what does that mean for Egypt, the Middle East, and the rest of the world?

 

If the Muslim Brotherhood is neutralized, I see a perhaps good responsible pro western secular government evolving. If it's not neutralized then it's a craps shoot - and I don't like the odds.

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

 

BTW - Lebanon and Tunisia are already falling to the Islamic Theocracy

 

The whole area is a powder keg just waiting for someone to strike a match to it.The situation in Egypt is: "Just taking the match out of the box".

 

Bill

Edited February 12, 2011 by Caliber308

[Bill Hincher]

you gotta admire the Egyptian people as a whole.

I don't know who caved in, but you gotta admire them. The choice was simple, either Mobarak would have the army mow down the protesters in the square with machine guns and stay in power or he would step down.

I am going to bet that Mobarak was going to stay in power but the military told him 'no' when it came to the shooting. Somebody was willing to step up to the plate and 'do the right thing'

It shows me that the Egyptian people as a whole have good moral judgment. I would not worry too much about thier new government, they can stand up for themselves