Robert_n_family Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) So my car's been acting up a tad with all this cold weather. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe not. Anyways..I'm having major issues after a cold start. She'll start up instantly like normal, I don't even touch the pedal. Nice and smooth idle to start off, but after about 7-10 seconds it immediately gets rough as heck for about another 10-15 mins till she's warm and happy. So...I'm doing the distributor rebuild this weekend. Ordered a new pickup coil w/seal and cap/rotor. No idea if this will help, but I want to know it's done. I replaced my O2 sensor with a new one. The old one was trashed, wire burned from old heat shield pressing on it. So any ideas on what else this could be? I'm thinking maybe injectors, but why would it be smooth at initial startup then get rough after 7-10 seconds? Coolant sensor crossed my mind, but doesn't it only control the gauge and when my car can shift into OD? It is tearing me up to hear her run like she is in the mornings. Help someone! Edit: If I try to drive her cold, forget about it. She'll kick and buck until she's ready to go. Literally you won't be leaving your road till it's warmed up, but after that she's good all day long. Edited January 10, 2011 by Robert_n_family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rabbit1 Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 coolant sensor controls fuel mixture.has no effect on overdrive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlkdOutStarion Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Mine does it when temps are under sub 40s before it would do it for about 15 minutes, I put new spark plugs and gapped them at 28 and now only does it for about 5 seconds. She would only do it when it sits over night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestFan Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) My quest would do that too when I first got it. I noticed it ran very rough when it was cold outside and like you said, just forget about driving it till it warms up. I would let it sit in the drive way and listen in pain as it spat and spuddered untill it was warm. I did a 1G MAS air upgrade and never noticed the problem after that. I didnt do the MAS because of that specific problem though, I just did it because it was an upgrade. Edited January 10, 2011 by YoungQuestFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raider 2.6 Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Is 28 the generally accepted gap for a stock car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rabbit1 Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 from what I gather most users gap plugs around 36 or so. From what I have read on here. If you live in a colder climate you can always use a colder plug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_n_family Posted January 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 So any suggestions as to this crazy rough idling? And I said that about the coolant sensor because I was told that until quests warm up to a certain level they won't shift into OD. At least thats how mine acts and another automatic I've seen. I just figured that the coolant temp sensor was what monitored this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 The climate doesn't have anything to do with the heat range of the plugs. 7s or 8s if its a high boost car and that means 20-25+psi boost not 18 or 15 your car will idle worse with 8s compared to 7s because they are so cold. Getting the fuel to atomize is what the colder temperatures cause. That's why there are chokes on carburetors and fuel enrichments in injected cars when they are cold. The sensor that will let an automatic tranny go into overdrive is the temperature gauge unit, that's one of the two things that second prong on the sensor does its just a switch that closes after the coolant is hot. No need to bog the motor down with a tranny in O.D. when its cold. .28 gap is tiny, you got the WRONG spark plugs or you're so rich you can't get it to run without doing that. http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-ash1/v5206/244/80/1778479606/n1778479606_70423_1911684.jpg http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs123.snc1/5289_1027208978663_1778479606_56212_606787_n.jpg http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/NGKsparkplugNum.gif BUR7EA-11 from the above chart is surface or semi surface and that is a completely different type of plug from a BPR7ES-11 because that you can see has a more projected and less protected insulator. Rich air/fuel conditions, rich idling, leaky injectors, stuck injectors, wrong gap all those can contribute to foul that projected insulator. A inadequate oil separator will eventually cause carbon build up in the cylinders. Fouling can mean no start, hard start, high rpm misfires. Wrong plug wire routing, tangled wires, wires shorting out to the engine, deteriorated plug wires or boots can also cause misfires. Those plastic clips that were on the valve cover and held the wires separated and in place had a purpose you should retain those and use them. Unexplained bucking or popping under boost at higher rpms could be misfires. http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/plugwiring02.jpg This is the explanation of the type plug Mitsubishi installed in the engine when it was new: Surface and semi-surface discharge firing tips are less sensitive to voltage requirement increases due to gap growth(wear). Note the concave cut on the ground electrodes for even Gap growth (wear). In addition, this type of construction aids in burning away the carbon which can act as a bridge between the center electrode and plug shell. This bridging can cause plug misfire. http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/semisurface2.jpg http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/pic_plug411.jpg Unless you have at all times a perfect air fuel ratio, do not use those "alternate" listed plugs, they WILL MISFIRE and what you end up doing is closing the gap to keep it from happening and that means you have less HEAT from that spark to ignite the fuel so you get shot in both feet by using the wrong plug plug making its gap too small. After you get the car running, get the AIR FUEL PERFECT and that doesn't mean it pukes rich sometimes then leans out other times it means its steady across the board (and that means a stock setup or an ECU swap to control it), then and only then can you pull those plugs, read them and make sense of what they look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87B71Brad Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Check your vacume line on the very bottom of throttle body. It should run around firewall and go to the vac can and cruise and other sorts of things. I Thought I should do the tps and isc reset and I found that there were more than one leak in that section of vacume lines. I fixed them all and it idles better that it ever has. If you check them and all other vac lines than consider doing the isc and tps reset. Not that hard and directions are in the FAQ forum. If they are off it will cause rough and missing idle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vnomous1 Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 So my car's been acting up a tad with all this cold weather. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe not. Anyways..I'm having major issues after a cold start. She'll start up instantly like normal, I don't even touch the pedal. Nice and smooth idle to start off, but after about 7-10 seconds it immediately gets rough as heck for about another 10-15 mins till she's warm and happy. So...I'm doing the distributor rebuild this weekend. Ordered a new pickup coil w/seal and cap/rotor. No idea if this will help, but I want to know it's done. I replaced my O2 sensor with a new one. The old one was trashed, wire burned from old heat shield pressing on it. So any ideas on what else this could be? I'm thinking maybe injectors, but why would it be smooth at initial startup then get rough after 7-10 seconds? Coolant sensor crossed my mind, but doesn't it only control the gauge and when my car can shift into OD? It is tearing me up to hear her run like she is in the mornings. Help someone! Edit: If I try to drive her cold, forget about it. She'll kick and buck until she's ready to go. Literally you won't be leaving your road till it's warmed up, but after that she's good all day long. Rob, You know cold weather has a way of just bringing out he best, doesn't it? Sound like the ISC could use a little maintenance (cleaning/lubrication). Unless yours has been replaced with a new one, that is where I would start, then do the ISC reset. It would not hurt to clean the MAS with some MAS spray cleaner. Fuel filter(s) been replaced? throttle body gasket & seals been replaced? Double check those vacuum lines and and if they are the originals...you know what you gotta do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Careful with that MAF cleaner there's nothing in there to clean its a transducer and if that cardboard is oily it throws the signal off since it can't absorb the random sound waves like its supposed too. Long term use of oily K&N filters ends up screwing them up. There's no wire in there to clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vnomous1 Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Careful with that MAF cleaner there's nothing in there to clean its a transducer and if that cardboard is oily it throws the signal off since it can't absorb the random sound waves like its supposed too. Long term use of oily K&N filters ends up screwing them up. There's no wire in there to clean. Thanks Indi.http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_n_family Posted January 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) Did it again this morning, and again this afternoon after it sat outside in 25 degrees for 8 hours. So...she starts perfect and idles like new...then suddenly after like 5 seconds of nice idling it gets rough until its nice and warm. Have a twist to this story, and it makes no sense to me but here it is... Went to move her this afternoon, and the roughness started. However, when I put it in drive the idle immediately smoothed out versus being in park. Park = rough idle / Drive = smooth idle. Make sense to anyone? Edit: When I say it gets rough, the car is undriveable until it warms completely. I have black junk out of my tailpipe on the snow after it rough idled. When I moved it to a different spot once it was smooth, nothing comes out the tailpipe. Wow she really hates the cold. It will kick, sputter, and buck if you try to drive it without the long long warm up. Edited January 11, 2011 by Robert_n_family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87B71Brad Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 did you listen to anything about adjusting the isc and tps?? check all vacume lines too!! Just wondering it might solve your problems...never know. Posting that you moved it isnt gonna help diagnose it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_n_family Posted January 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 did you listen to anything about adjusting the isc and tps?? check all vacume lines too!! Just wondering it might solve your problems...never know. Posting that you moved it isnt gonna help diagnose it. ISC and TPS were reset 5 months ago when the TB was rebuilt. The car is perfect 95% of the time except during a cold start. All vacuum lines are virtually new, the red one's from the GP. Everything is in place, no cracked lines. Posting that I just moved it isn't all that I posted. The purpose of that was to show that once it was in gear the sputtering ceased instantly even though it was cold, as well as a drop in RPM's of about 1 or 200. I didn't see why it would sputter in park, but not in gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) I don't care what anyone elses comments are on this. A Three-Wire 0-2 Sensor will make your car idle smoother, faster. I live in Montana and cold weather is a part of living here. My Starion use to take forever to level out at idle when it was cold outside (32 degrees or lower) After the installation of the Three-Wire..About 1/3 of the time.If I installed it and it didn't work. I would be the first to tell members that.I have seen a number of members who like to comment on parts that they have never installed on their cars. If they have never installed them, they can't comment on the success or failure with any degree of competence I don't give bad advice. Just sound advice, Bill Edited January 12, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_n_family Posted January 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Replaced my O2 sensor on Sunday Caliber. Thanks for the PM the other day! I'll do a TPS ISC reset again today...perhaps change some ignition components. (Cap, rotor, plugs (If I can find the right ones)). If all that doesn't fix her, I'll try to take a video of her starting to show you guys what I'm actually talking about. It doesn't just run rough, it barely runs. The motor goes from smooth at initial startup and idle, to crazy rough and sounding like it's on 3 cylinders. The whole car shakes. This gets gradually better with the warm up until it's smooth again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raider 2.6 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Subscribed, this sounds exactly like what I'm experiencing. I haven't gone through everything you have at this point, but it would be nice to know how it turns out. I read about the 3-wire before replacing mine with a factory piece. Having so many other things to tend to I wasn't too interested in adding wiring to the car just yet. There is a strong gas smell (in a garage anyway) and the black stuff you're talking about on a dead cold startup. Idles rough and doesn't want to rev until warmed up. There have been a couple times where it fired up just fine in cold temps though. I'll continue my own troubleshooting and let you know if I come up with anything first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natallica Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 I'm watching this thread for the solution as well, hoping my newly cleaned (Witchhunter) injectors solve this problem. Let me know if you figure something out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfighterpilot Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) When you first start your Lady at what RPM's for the first 5 seconds while shes idling fine does she go to? Should be about 1500 RPM's. If it doesn't go to about 1500 then that could be an indication of the root cause of your cold idle problem. When your Lady is stone cold and you have someone turn the ignition switch to ON, do you hear the "zing" or "zip" noise that the ISC should make when it goes to the COLD idle position. If not then the MPS/ISC is not working correctly in cold weather. Have you ever disassembled the MPS/ISC and ensured that the nose button switch is working without binding and that you have cleaned out & replaced the 20 something year old crusty grease that's in the ISC's idle switch worm gearing? Even tho you successfully performed a MPS/ISC reset 6 months ago when the weather was WARM or HOT, with the winter temps that you are experiencing now, the ISC Servo motor may not have enouigh balls to over come the NOW COLD OLD CRUSTY ISC grease and turn the idle switch to the position it should be at. See FSM Page 14-10 for a cut away view of the MPS (showing the position sensor) and the ISC internals. It could also be that during this cold weather the MPS idle switch sensor is going FUBAR and only intermittently reading the position of the idle switch until the engine/MPS/ISC grease warms up. I found a Motor Position sensor broke one time. Over the years I have experienced the MPS and ISC being responsible for some weird off the wall problems with the EFI system. Replaced the MPS/ISC and the problem magically went away which did not make any sense at all. Took 'em apart cheaned 'em up and replaced the grease, freed up the ISC idle switch and the MPS position sensor and it performed like new again. I found the MPS Position Sensor broke one time. I may be totally off base with the above, however there is an easy way to check. I may have missed this in the above replies, but have you pulled a set of error codes yet? If not they can tell you a lot. For What It's Worth. KEN PS - Read FSM 14-13 through 14- 17 that talks about injector driving time and the temperature corrections made cuz of outside temps; and FSM 14-17 which talks about idle control under various conditions. PS#2 - On some occassions my Starquest EFI system just went flackey and started the engine doing weird stuff - even if I turned her off, waited a couple of minutes and restarted her. I have found in some instances, that disconnecting the battery neg cable from the battery and waiting a couple of minutes with it off; then reconnecting the neg cable the problem magically goes away. It clears the problem the same way as when your computer locks up or does weird things for no apparant reason and you have to do a reboot. Remember that the Starquest's EFI ECU is early '80's technology. Just a thought.............. Edited January 13, 2011 by Starfighterpilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raider 2.6 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) Are all of those pieces mounted to the same plate? Disconnect them, remove some screws and it all comes off the TB? Also, one of the SOS threads shows a ground strap from the motor ground point to the intake, is this wise to ensure a solid ground to those components? Edited January 12, 2011 by Raider 2.6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_n_family Posted January 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) have you pulled a set of error codes yet? If not they can tell you a lot. Nope. Had the car two years and never have seen an engine light so I didn't even think to. I checked the FSM and can't find out how to pull the codes. Check I-X also, maybe I'm just not looking in the right places. Got a link by chance anyone on the "How to" of error codes? Edited January 12, 2011 by Robert_n_family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) Nope. Had the car two years and never have seen an engine light so I didn't even think to. I checked the FSM and can't find out how to pull the codes. Check I-X also, maybe I'm just not looking in the right places. Got a link by chance anyone on the "How to" of error codes? If you dig through the FSM a bit, it will tell you.Also will the Starquest FAQ Forum: "Seek and you shall find" Bill Edited January 12, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_n_family Posted January 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Found the thread. Thanks! I was just looking in the wrong forum. Maybe I just don't know how to use the search engine but everything I type in pulls hundreds of threads that have no similarity to what I need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_n_family Posted January 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Work is on hold for a day or two. The Mitsu dealer ordered the wrong part. I thought 15 bucks sounded cheap for the pickup/wires/gasket for the distributor. Now with the right part on order the dizzy rebuild wont happen till next week sometime. Just ordered 4 BUR7EA-11's from the parts house. Be here tomorrow. So this weekend I'm going to do those ISC/TPS resets, clean the ISC like advised and test it, change my exhaust manifold (Has a crack, I think), Turbo mount gaskets, and plugs/cap/rotor. Wireset is less than a year old. I'll update if any changes on Monday or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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