An interesting and reflective read

[Fanta]

If we can leave argumentative politics out of this thread, I'd like to hear people's input on this person's article that they wrote.

 

http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/149324

 

"As an American expat living in the European Union, I’ve started to see America from a different perspective.

 

The European Union has a larger economy and more people than America does. Though it spends less -- right around 9 percent of GNP on medical, whereas we in the U.S. spend close to between 15 to 16 percent of GNP on medical -- the EU pretty much insures 100 percent of its population.

 

The U.S. has 59 million people medically uninsured; 132 million without dental insurance; 60 million without paid sick leave; 40 million on food stamps. Everybody in the European Union has cradle-to-grave access to universal medical and a dental plan by law. The law also requires paid sick leave; paid annual leave; paid maternity leave. When you realize all of that, it becomes easy to understand why many Europeans think America has gone insane.

 

Der Spiegel has run an interesting feature called "A Superpower in Decline," which attempts to explain to a German audience such odd phenomena as the rise of the Tea Party, without the hedging or attempts at "balance" found in mainstream U.S. media. On the Tea Parties:

 

Full of Hatred: "The Tea Party, that group of white, older voters who claim that they want their country back, is angry. Fox News host Glenn Beck, a recovering alcoholic who likens Obama to Adolf Hitler, is angry. Beck doesn't quite know what he wants to be -- maybe a politician, maybe president, maybe a preacher -- and he doesn't know what he wants to do, either, or least he hasn't come up with any specific ideas or plans. But he is full of hatred."

 

The piece continues with the sobering assessment that America’s actual unemployment rate isn’t really 10 percent, but close to 20 percent when we factor in the number of people who have stopped looking for work.

 

Some social scientists think that making sure large-scale crime or fascism never takes root in Europe again requires a taxpayer investment in a strong social safety net. Can we learn from Europe? Isn't it better to invest in a social safety net than in a large criminal justice system? (In America over 2 million people are incarcerated.)

 

Jobless Benefits That Never Run Out

 

Unlike here, in Germany jobless benefits never run out. Not only that -- as part of their social safety net, all job seekers continue to be medically insured, as are their families.

 

In the German jobless benefit system, when "jobless benefit 1" runs out, "jobless benefit 2," also known as HartzIV, kicks in. That one never gets cut off. The jobless also have contributions made for their pensions. They receive other types of insurance coverage from the state. As you can imagine, the estimated 2 million unemployed Americans who almost had no benefits this Christmas seems a particular horror show to Europeans, made worse by the fact that the U.S. government does not provide any medical insurance to American unemployment recipients. Europeans routinely recoil at that in disbelief and disgust.

 

In another piece the Spiegel magazine steps away from statistics and tells the story of Pam Brown, who personifies what is coming to be known as the Nouveau American poor. Pam Brown was a former executive assistant on Wall Street, and her shocking decline has become part of the American story:

 

American society is breaking apart. Millions of people have lost their jobs and fallen into poverty. Among them, for the first time, are many middle-class families. Meet Pam Brown from New York, whose life changed overnight. The crisis caught her unprepared. "It was horrible," Pam Brown remembers. "Overnight I found myself on the wrong side of the fence. It never occurred to me that something like this could happen to me. I got very depressed." Brown sits in a cheap diner on West 14th Street in Manhattan, stirring her $1.35 coffee. That's all she orders -- it's too late for breakfast and too early for lunch. She also needs to save money. Until early 2009, Brown worked as an executive assistant on Wall Street, earning more than $80,000 a year, living in a six-bedroom house with her three sons. Today, she's long-term unemployed and has to make do with a tiny one-bedroom in the Bronx.

 

It's important to note that no country in the European Union uses food stamps in order to humiliate its disadvantaged citizens in the grocery checkout line. Even worse is the fact that even the humbling food stamp allotment may not provide enough food for America’s jobless families. So it is on a reoccurring basis that some of these families report eating out of garbage cans to the European media.

 

For Pam Brown, last winter was the worst. One day she ran out of food completely and had to go through trash cans. She fell into a deep depression ... For many, like Brown, the downfall is a Kafkaesque odyssey, a humiliation hard to comprehend. Help is not in sight: their government and their society have abandoned them.

 

Pam Brown and her children were disturbingly, indeed incomprehensibly, allowed to fall straight to the bottom. The richest country in the world becomes morally bankrupt when someone like Pam Brown and her children have to pick through trash to eat, abandoned with a callous disregard by the American government. People like Brown have found themselves dispossessed due to the robber baron actions of the Wall Street elite.

 

Hunger in the Land of the Big Mac

 

A shocking headline from a Swiss newspaper reads (Berner Zeitung) “Hunger in the Land of the Big Mac.” Though the article is in German, the pictures are worth 1,000 words and need no translation. Given the fact that the Swiss virtually eliminated hunger, how do we as Americans think they will view these pictures, to which the American population has apparently been desensitized.

 

http://s1178.photobucket.com/albums/x371/backup2011/foodboxes.jpg

 

This appears to be a picture of two mothers collecting food boxes from the charity Feed the Children.

 

Perhaps the only way for us to remember what we really look like in America is to see ourselves through the eyes of others. While it is true that we can all be proud Americans, surely we don't have to be proud of the broken American social safety net. Surely we can do better than that. Can a European-style social safety net rescue the American working and middle classes from GOP and Tea Party warfare?"

[Chad]

Europeans also pay more in taxes and have less opportunity to better themselves though hard work.

 

We are the land of opportunity, it's a different concept from europe and most any other country. Comparing the US to any other system is really kind of moot, and trying to adapt our system to work like theres will be a totaly failure unless you do so with removal of that "opportunity" in the name of "security". You'll never have both, utopias don't last.

 

Why do we think we are entitled to it all?

 

Opportunity, freedom, security, Please pick 2

[Fanta]

Opportunity, freedom, security, Please pick 2

 

Curious, which two would you, or have you, picked?

[Skullzaflare]

Europeans also pay more in taxes and have less opportunity to better themselves though hard work.

 

We are the land of opportunity, it's a different concept from europe and most any other country. Comparing the US to any other system is really kind of moot, and trying to adapt our system to work like theres will be a totaly failure unless you do so with removal of that "opportunity" in the name of "security". You'll never have both, utopias don't last.

 

Why do we think we are entitled to it all?

 

Opportunity, freedom, security, Please pick 2

while this may be true, they have less things to pay for, thats why they can afford the $8/l in gass (i dont know up to date price)

not saying they have a lot of money, just they have more than you make it seem

[vbrad511]

Interesting article. It brings to light our situation(s) as supposedly the best country in the world. The more you look, the more you see money ruling everything here. Guilty? Doesn't matter. You can likely buy your freedom. Not guilty, but don't have the cash to prove it, jail time. Corporate greed makes the laws in the form of lobbying. Insurance companies calling for bailouts and then giving thei CEO's a billion dollars in bonuses, while they deny claims for people needing treatment. Our leaders deny cost of living increases for our elderly, the elderly who worked for 40 or 50 years and now survive on scraps. Those same leaders toss out tax money hand over fist to countries around the world, feed and house generations of welfare cases and illegals, AND just gave themselves more than $10,000 a year pay raises...for doing a part-time job they never get right. It's both refreshing and frustrating to see other countries with such stability, when we can't even seem to ensure our people the basics.

[Skullzaflare]

Interesting article. It brings to light our situation(s) as supposedly the best country in the world. The more you look, the more you see money ruling everything here. Guilty? Doesn't matter. You can likely buy your freedom. Not guilty, but don't have the cash to prove it, jail time. Corporate greed makes the laws in the form of lobbying. Insurance companies calling for bailouts and then giving thei CEO's a billion dollars in bonuses, while they deny claims for people needing treatment. Our leaders deny cost of living increases for our elderly, the elderly who worked for 40 or 50 years and now survive on scraps. Those same leaders toss out tax money hand over fist to countries around the world, feed and house generations of welfare cases and illegals, AND just gave themselves more than $10,000 a year pay raises...for doing a part-time job they never get right. It's both refreshing and frustrating to see other countries with such stability, when we can't even seem to ensure our people the basics.

not to mention, the wealthy hardly pay any tax, if not being paiud BY tax, they can afford to hire those who can find every loop whole known and receive money instead of spend

and they keep lowering rich income tax wt.... lol

[lmwii]

the richer you are, the more you pay. that's because we have a progressive tax system that increases your burden the more you make.

 

ny times link

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 40.42 percent of total federal income taxes in 2007, according to the most recent data from the Internal Revenue Service.

 

factcheck.org link

The share now borne by the top 1 percent is the highest it has been since 1979, the earliest year for which CBO has figures.

 

national taxpayer's union link

Percentiles Ranked by AGI

 

AGI Threshold on Percentiles

 

Percentage of Federal Personal Income Tax Paid

 

Top 1%

 

$380,354

 

38.02

 

Top 5%

 

$159,619

 

58.72

 

Top 10%

 

$113,799

 

69.94

 

Top 25%

 

$67,280

 

86.34

 

Top 50%

 

$33,048

 

97.30

 

Bottom 50%

 

<$33,048

 

2.7

 

Note: AGI is Adjusted Gross Income

Source: Internal Revenue Service

 

there is soooooo much ignorance in this world, from science to politics that it sickens me to think that some of you vote, and that it counts the same as mine.

Edited December 27, 2010 by lmwii

[Cloud81918]

The EU still has the pride of its individual components many of which pride themselves of their heritage and their world renound products, which are some of the best in the world. They a exporting machines that have some shelter from China both physically and financially with a proper use of tariff.

 

We (collectively) on the other hand tell ourselves to "Buy American" and then live in denial as we buy the cheap crap from China by the boatload. Local manufactures are content to try to sell to us, rather then pushing to sell to the world; But they are having a hard time competing with products that can sell on the store selves at a profit for less than what it take a US manufacture to simply make the same item. Many companies move their manufacturing overseas just to compete, and soon after that they start rolling in a profit and now don't want trade restrictions either.

 

But it is a ll a loss, because the US company has no rights in China. They don't own anything, and the company that is actually makes the product has the ability to screw the US company in a million ways. And the Chinese courts always side with the Chinese entity.

 

The one item we do make tons of locally is food and we nearly give it away. I say we should start racheting that s*** hard.

"Oh China, another famine. That sucks. Listen let's work out a fair trade deal and we'll ship over some food."

 

Shortcomings of our current system are exactly what you'd expect when you have unfair trade and patent practices.

 

I have no issue with buy foreign. I own 4 foreign cars and plenty of others things not made in our borders. I'm all for world trade. But if we don't watch ourselves things will get worse. The fed has the ability to enforce tariff and has been asleep at the wheel to too long as mega-corporations have been built just to cash in on the trade disparity. Now Leaders are afraid of the Chinese because our government owes them money, Locally based companies (who can crush them be making donations to election opponents) and the public who complain anytime prices go up on anything.

 

I hope we can figure it out or it will be a s***** ride to the bottom.

[patra_is_here]

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 40.42 percent of total federal income taxes in 2007, according to the most recent data from the Internal Revenue Service.

 

I read an article in the NYT about a hedge fund trader who's INCOME was 4billion dollars last year. INCOME. not worth, not assets, not interest on bank accounts, not inheritance, but actual INCOME. so, someone who's actual income is 4,000,000,000 can carry a burden. the average salary in the US is around 40K or less. so, this guy makes 100,000 times as much as an average american, if you are making 100,000 times the income of an average person, you can pay a higher income tax percentage.

Edited December 27, 2010 by patra_is_here

[patra_is_here]

also, you people are kidding yourself if you think america is the land of opportunity. it's the land of opportunity for those who already have enough. you think the average american has any real chance at greatness. the wealthy get more and the poor get poorer. more people are slipping into the lower classes and the upper classes aren't gaining members at nearly the same rate, BUT, those members in the upper class are continuing to economically distance themselves from the other classes.

[patra_is_here]

you know why we pay 15% GNP on medical? because it's a for profit system. because america is filled with ignorant unhealthy slobs. because we have the highest rate of heart disease in the world, but that's no surprise since our food industry makes more money by selling unhealthy food to people who can't afford to eat well or who are simply so undereducated by the public school systems in terms of nutrition that the society here is basically creating problems on nearly all health frontiers.

 

I used to want universal health care, but i thought "screw those people". do i really want to help every hamburger eating fool who has health problems? do i really want to help every life long smoker with lung cancer?

 

 

this thread is getting me aggravated. you people are kidding yourselves if you think this is the land of milk and honey. you're lying to yourself if you think getting a good job, going out to applebee's and buying flat screen TV's is what the founding fathers dreamed of for the masses.

 

 

unless the power elite and the separation of the classes are put in check, america is gonna follow the course of countries like brazil, with there massive underclass and small controlling elite and nearly non-existent middle class.

[lmwii]

I read an article in the NYT about a hedge fund trader who's INCOME was 4billion dollars last year. INCOME. not worth, not assets, not interest on bank accounts, not inheritance, but actual INCOME. so, someone who's actual income is 4,000,000,000 can carry a burden. the average salary in the US is around 40K or less. so, this guy makes 100,000 times as much as an average american, if you are making 100,000 times the income of an average person, you can pay a higher income tax percentage.

i didn't say it wasn't fair. i said that the poster was so ill-informed that it made me sick. i'm tired of these totally false populist homilies that get passed around as truth.

[Chad]

Curious, which two would you, or have you, picked?

 

 

I pick opportunity and freedom,

 

Security I can do for myself by making good choices and being well informed. I choose to live in a safe place, I choose to vote for those that have the same goals as myself. I work hard (take advantege of my opportunity) and I save my $$ and spent it wisely.

 

I've met many people in life and few have ever impressed me with their sad tales for whom I didn't see was moslty their doing, either by action or in-action. And trust me, I grew up in the gutter, I've seen what it's like, and I know how my family got there. As long as we have fredom and opportunity, there is little excuse for failure to thrive.

 

And I agree about the for-profit healthcare being the primary difference in the cost gap, I've worked in health care, there is plenty of profit going arround, and that comes out of our pokets every time.

 

again, why do people think we deserve it all? we don't.

[vbrad511]

I pick opportunity and freedom,

 

Security I can do for myself by making good choices and being well informed. I choose to live in a safe place, I choose to vote for those that have the same goals as myself. I work hard (take advantege of my opportunity) and I save my $$ and spent it wisely.

 

I've met many people in life and few have ever impressed me with their sad tales for whom I didn't see was moslty their doing, either by action or in-action. And trust me, I grew up in the gutter, I've seen what it's like, and I know how my family got there. As long as we have fredom and opportunity, there is little excuse for failure to thrive.

 

And I agree about the for-profit healthcare being the primary difference in the cost gap, I've worked in health care, there is plenty of profit going arround, and that comes out of our pokets every time.

 

again, why do people think we deserve it all? we don't.

 

Well this is all YOUR situation. And that's fine for you, but not everybody has the mindset or the options you have/had. If everybody had the drive, and the ability, the country might be a better place. It's nice to know it can be done, but not everybody's the same. And I'm not for handing out everything to anybody that cries, but if we can burn billions every week trying to install a puppet government in in someplace like Iraq and feed a couple million starving people in Africa we can certainly tend our own. Would you feed your neighbor's kids while yours went hungry?

[FlattopMike]

I'd be happy to pay more in taxes if I didn't have to pay $1,200 per month for medical and dental insurance. That is a family of 4 and doesn't include deductibles and co-pays. They run me about another $4,000 per year.

I pay more for health insurance than I do for my house.

Oh, and my premiums will be going up on the 1st.

[Chad]

Well this is all YOUR situation. And that's fine for you, but not everybody has the mindset or the options you have/had.

 

What options did I have that weren't avaialble to us all? If that statement is more about mindset, well I refuse to support someone that doesn't share my mindset. It's the mindset of our fore-fathers. It is the mindset of every honestly succesful person I've ever met. If you do not share my mindset, do not expect my lifestyle, period.

 

I have paid for everythig I've ever owned (minus christmas/birthdays gifts) since about the age of 14. Paid my own way thoguh college, bought my own cars, bought my own food and clothing, and paid my own insurance.

 

Excluding people with severe mental illness (2.8%) or those with severe disabilities (% varreis), everyone else has the same opportunities I had. Even those with severe mental illness and severe disability can usualy work and make a good living if they choose to, I've seen it.

 

Why reward lazy? why subsidize a stupid person with a smart persons $

 

And no, I won't let my kids go hungry for the sake of someone else. Does that make me selfish? fine. Why isn't Germany sending their $$ to help our poor? How about Japan, or the other major world players. We spend $$ on everyone elses' poor, why don't we get that in return?

 

I'd pay a few more in taxes if I coudl believe the benifits woudl be there, but I don't have faith that system will ever deliver a good return on my $$, so I won't support those ideals.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for creating safety nets and having programs for those that truly can't take care of themselves, but I think the deffinition of "can't take care of ones self" is very broken, and many I see on these programs have not made good choices that were their own doing, or haven't made enough sacrifices to ensure thier own success (we've all seen examples of that). why reward that?

 

I'll support my childeren the best I can, but if my son wrecks his first car, I sure as hell won't pay to get it fixed, he'll have to learn a lesson from it. If he want's something, he'll have to earn it, just like I did. If he gets fired or evicted and has to live off me, You better believe there will be some form of working that off. Why would I hold my neighbors kid to any different standard?

 

I think we have it better than Europe, and those that suffer here would probalby suffer there too, cause they would still be lazy/stupid.

[NotStock88]

I think we have it better than Europe, and those that suffer here would probalby suffer there too, cause they would still be lazy/stupid.

 

amen

[Fanta]

i didn't say it wasn't fair. i said that the poster was so ill-informed that it made me sick. i'm tired of these totally false populist homilies that get passed around as truth.

 

I never said that that was fact. I just stated that it was an interesting article that happens to be written by an American over in Germany, and how at least the EU views the US. I'm well aware of the progressive tax system we have - but I think that it's now glaringly obvious on how misinformed the rest of the world also is, probably due to misinformation from the media.

[Chad]

the media lies? since when

 

Yah, the problem is never as easy as it seems when you really dig deep into it. I think a lot of time is spent worring about what is wrong with the system instead of also being happy with what has worked. We inherited a lot of good from our fore-fathers.

 

I didn't even read that articel till just now, I find a lot of it insulting and wrong. Many statements that are misleading.

 

One example is of an executive that was so poor, she could only afford her $1.35 coffe at a local resturant. last I looked, you could buy a whole loaf of bread for $1.35 Then it want on to say now she had to leave her 6 br house and now could only afford a 1 br appartment. Yah, so? Take yoru lumps and do something about it. Don't blame the system, it could happen to anyone, life isnt' supposed to be fair. she said:

It never occurred to me that something like this could happen to me

there's the problem lady

 

Another example was that we give out food stapms but you can't get enough to eat:

 

Even worse is the fact that even the humbling food stamp allotment may not provide enough food for America’s jobless families.

 

My family went on food stams a few times when I was a kid, and I have a few family mmebers that are on them now. They always gave us more than we ever needed if we spent it like it was our own $$, no buying steak and chips, but real food. there was often food stamp $$ left over. How many of you have seem peolpe buy total crap with their food stamps, then pay for beer and cigs with the little cash they had left? I know I have cause I worked in a grovery store as a teenager. How many hav eseen a "bum" with a "help me" sign while drunk, smoking a Marlboro, and you see a bunch of junk food by their duffle bag? It's not the system that's broken, it's those that misuse it, or don't plan for the reality of life in a trulty free economy.

 

My wife could pay all our bills and put food on teh table for our family with just her paycheck, and I coudl do the same with just my paycheck. Could we afford a bigger hosue and nicer cars, Eat out more often, and have nicer stuff? sure. We'd rather have our own security.

 

Our system has more risk in it, and it has more opportunity. You have to remember when times are good that the risk will always be there.

[lmwii]

I never said that that was fact. I just stated that it was an interesting article that happens to be written by an American over in Germany, and how at least the EU views the US. I'm well aware of the progressive tax system we have - but I think that it's now glaringly obvious on how misinformed the rest of the world also is, probably due to misinformation from the media.

i wasn't replying to you, but to the poster above me who said the rich hardly pay taxes and that they keep paying less.

[MontyTSI]

amen

 

amen to the amen.... there is a since of entitlement that comes with government backed programs that niether the US or the europeans can afford. There is no substitute for good honest effort, prudent risk and thinking ahead. If you are motivated, reasonably intelligent, have a skill set (and/or education in a profitable field), have a good sense of self perspective(what you are truly capable of) and are willing to relocate if necessary you will do well in this country.

[Edde]

This is silly. Only have to look right here at home to see the reality. As for that tax argument it's correct but a static number not weighed against any history. Let's remember that capital gains is topped at 15% - that's for anyone who does nothing all day but push numbers. This is because - and folks better know but don't seem to - the wall streeters decided we would be a financial based economy rather than one built on manufacturing long ago. The jobs aren't coming back. I see fits and starts but puttering for years. How about some austerity measures to top it off?

 

While the following has been taking place a "commission" rather than a capable Congress "had to" take up the long term defecit and low and behold. While the funnel has been pouring money backwards (to the top) we're in such straights now as to be forced to "share the pain". Give me a break. Social security (yes absent any saving acct) is a pay go system that has nothing to do with any of this nonesense, and it's easily fixable with NO pain to anyone. But it's GOT to be on the table as part of the commisson's work. HA!

 

There is absolutely no pain anywhere near the top percentages. Show me please.

 

But tax cuts rule while many of the richest do not want this to continue. It's purely political. Amazing.

 

They're robbing all of us blind yet we can't seem to quit 'em. I do not want Capitalism as a form of Governing but this now what we have.

 

 

 

Since I like pictures with my numbers: (and I hope they don't blocked)

 

 

The gap between top 1% and the rest has not been this large since the 20's

 

 

 

http://static.businessinsider.com/image/4bbf3f0b7f8b9ac202070000-547-/the-gap-between-the-top-1-and-everyone-else-hasnt-been-this-bad-since-the-roaring-twenties.jpg

 

 

Half of America has 2.5% of the wealth.

 

http://static.businessinsider.com/image/4bbcb3f17f8b9a562fb70000-547-/half-of-america-has-25-of-the-wealth.jpg

 

 

 

Half of Americas has only .5%

 

http://static.businessinsider.com/image/4bbcb4527f8b9a4e2f9e0100-547-/half-of-america-has-only-05-of-americas-stocks-and-bonds.jpg

Wealth gap

 

http://static.businessinsider.com/image/4bbcb17c7f8b9a6218b70000-547-/look-at-the-wealth-gap-grow.jpg

 

CEO is a great job. Everyone be a CEO.

 

http://static.businessinsider.com/image/4bbcaeb47f8b9a812b5a0100-547-/the-last-two-decades-were-greatif-you-were-a-ceo-or-owner-not-if-you-were-anyone-else.jpg

 

 

Real average earnings not increased in 50 years.

 

http://static.businessinsider.com/image/4bbcb53d7f8b9a2e1beb0c00-547-/real-average-earnings-have-not-increased-in-50-years.jpg

The poor have little chance of moving up.

 

http://static.businessinsider.com/image/4bbcbdbb7f8b9acb194a0300-547-/despite-the-myth-of-social-mobility-poor-americans-have-a-slim-chance-of-rising-to-the-upper-middle-class.jpg

 

 

http://static.businessinsider.com/image/4bbca8ea7f8b9a7b16790400-547-/republican-tax-cuts-have-significantly-increased-the-wealth-gap.jpg

 

 

 

 

http://static.businessinsider.com/image/4bbcac9f7f8b9ad2290f0000-547-/meanwhile-income-tax-is-getting-lower-and-lower-for-the-rich.jpg

 

 

http://static.businessinsider.com/image/4bbcaa2f7f8b9a0726e30400-547-/americas-income-spread-is-nearly-twice-the-oecd-average.jpg

 

Normalized to 1979, the top 1% have seen their share of America's income more than double. The bottom 90% have seen their portion shrink

 

 

http://static.businessinsider.com/image/4bbcabdd7f8b9a0b26b30600-400-300/if-you-arent-in-the-top-1-then-youre-getting-a-bum-deal.jpg

 

 

Edited December 28, 2010 by Edde

[patra_is_here]

freals.

[Chad]

If europe has it better than us, what's with all the anarchist attacks and austerity riots? I haven't seen any of that here per se.

 

Are we more civilized, or is it really not so good over there afterall?

[lmwii]

on a more practical note, we can't afford what we spend now; how should we pay for universal healthcare? is the consensus of single-payer supporters that the elimination of paying for private insurance would offset the costs?