Raidinator Posted July 4, 2010 Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 Before you hit that back arrow I tried the search function, none of those threads are the problem. Here is the problem: I have primed the oil pump, when I crank the engine oil comes out of the rockers but no oil is coming from the sender hole in the side of the chain cover. - there is no blockage in the sender hole since all of the engine oil was pumped through that hole- I am convinced the engine bearings are not backwards (which would disrupt the oil flow)- the engine continues to spin freely which leads me to believe that the main bearings and cn rods are getting oil my concern is that the main bearings are still riding on assembly lube and that if I run the motor like this i might fry the crank because oil is noth getting to the main bearings does anyone know what is going on with this engine? any and all opinions are welcome I am completely out of theories thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted July 4, 2010 Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 Sure your sending unit isn't just bad? Bearings don't have anything to do with the oil pump. Sending unit goes into the oil filter adapter and the hole for that points down and forward. Do you mean the non turbo motors sending unit hole in the side of the block just behind the timing cover? That's the main oil galley its drilled in to, if there's oil from the pump then there's oil to that sending unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted July 4, 2010 Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 Before you hit that back arrow I tried the search function, none of those threads are the problem. Here is the problem: I have primed the oil pump, when I crank the engine oil comes out of the rockers but no oil is coming from the sender hole in the side of the chain cover. Sender hole in the side of the chain cover? There's a priming hole in the side of the block close to the chain cover, but the sender hole is in the bottom of the filter housing. If you were smart enough to use assembly lube and prime the engine, then you should be smart enough to have the plug back in the priming port while it's running. - there is no blockage in the sender hole since all of the engine oil was pumped through that hole Yeah, good, that's the priming hole only. There's a plug for that hole. - I am convinced the engine bearings are not backwards (which would disrupt the oil flow)- the engine continues to spin freely which leads me to believe that the main bearings and cn rods are getting oil my concern is that the main bearings are still riding on assembly lube and that if I run the motor like this i might fry the crank because oil is noth getting to the main bearings That's a valid concern. I wouldn't move that rotating assembly another inch until you have a NEW oil pressure gauge installed. If you want tips for how/where to "T" in, I just went through it recently so I have a pretty slick procedure on the tip of my tongue. Allows you to retain the stock sender and gauge and add an aftermarket sender and gauge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intense98rt Posted July 4, 2010 Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 I put my autometer gauge in the spot you used to prime. Try that spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidinator Posted July 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 Ok this motor is a carbureted (keeps it mechanical for repairs on course). It resides in a modified dodge raider so in my case the priming hole is the sender hole. so I replaced the oil sender with a mechanical gauge....no joy. Out of curiosity I removed the gauge tube and left the hole open. even though I had oil at the head none was spilling out of the priming/sender hole. in past experience oil should be spraying he fender out of the priming hole. The fact that there is no oil at that hole causes me to believe that there is a disconnect somewhere in the oiling system. oil IS getting to the rockers but not the sender hole. does anyone have a reason why this might be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted July 4, 2010 Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 Is this just while cranking? Unless the pump was full of assembly lube its harder to get those to draw up the oil compared to the front pickup tube. It takes some time to get oil sucked up from the tube and while cranking or low rpms it may not have enough low pressure from the pump to get it started. Some have started the motor and still didn't have oil until the rpms were up. When you put the oil in that hole, was the block in the truck? It may have just ran to the back and went into the filter and none or not enough went into the pump gears. Jack the back of the truck up so that the block is tilted to the front then it will run in. Or pump in about a half quart more, that should fill the filter, galley and let the pump gears get some. You didn't by chance use a turbo pumps backing plate did you? If you did, there's no hole in the back to use that passage leading to your pickup tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidinator Posted July 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 Well I doubt that the oil pump is not picking anything up, because it is supplying oil to the head in a big way. as is said I pumped all of the engine's oil through the priming hole in the black. the dipstick reads completely full. so i think we're straight on the oil-in-the-system front I like your idea about having the turbo black plate on the oil pump. I ordered the pump online and it is very likely that I was sent the wrong pump. my only concern is that I was able to add oil through that hole. so it stands to reason that oil should be able to come back out. although I can imagine situations where that might not be true. but that is the best idea i have heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted July 4, 2010 Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 There is a long channel in the block runs along the bottom and is for that rear pickup tube and it has no other purpose and its in all blocks as well as "turbo blocks". A "turbo" block is identical except they tap a hole for the knock sensor and for the 4 oil jets from the main galley. If the block is older it may not have a bump in the casting for the knock sensor. No, you don't want that turbo backing plate, if you had it then you couldn't suck oil from the tube bolted in the middle of the block at all. The supply galley is different, its up much higher in the block intersects with the oil filter and all the pumps use that. You MUST be getting oil to the main galley or none would get to the head, its impossible. The head passage is in the front and it must past right by that hole where you say no oil is coming out because its drilled right into the galley. http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/Oil%20Pu2.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidinator Posted July 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2010 Indiana you are a god for finding a oil path diagram. I've been looking for a good one, however you lose some points for presenting no solutions. (which lands you somewhere around Hercules status) having oil to the head and not at the hole clearly is possible....I have an engine to prove it as an update:-I jacked up the rear of the truck and cranked it in hopes of oil pressure - nothing-I am too much of a panzee to run the car in hopes of oil pressure I refuse to rebuild such a low displacement engine twice -the car took as many as 10 quarts of oil since i have drained it and replaced it through the priming hole until the dipstick indicated it was full. all that to the system should be fully primed and full of oil.- the engine was not hot tanked after rebuilding, so a random blockage is a possibility but I can't imagine that it would stop flow 100% thank you one and all for your help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted July 5, 2010 Report Share Posted July 5, 2010 Describe the oil coming from the head. After the motor sucks up the oil and you cramk it with the starter, you'll fill the head up and it pours out in about ten seconds and runs over on the exhaust manifold and makes a big mess and if you have hydraulic lifters you'll have 8 steams of oil spraying on the hood if its still on there or it looks like a Vegas fountain. Is that what is happening? I can tell you that on a truck motor when we, well it wasn't me it was someone else because I pack some assembly lube in the pump gears and don't prime pumps, the pump was put on dry and after a very very long time trying to get the motor shown in the picture to suck up oil it wouldn't and didn't want to risk what you are saying either so it was taken out, pump packed and it sucked it right up but we also balanced the crank and swapped in forged pistons so that's not the only reason we decided to do that. It is hard to get that motor to suck up the oil just while cranking. If you used assembly lube and you got oil in the motor and you've been pumping or pouring it in the sending unit hole then I'd just start it and rev it up to 1500 or so and it will suck that oil right up, if not you did something wrong anyway why it won't. There was a guy on here few months ago he had same problem with his car and would only let it idle and couldn't see oil pressure and finally I said flip the throttle and rev it up and he did and it sucked up the oil. This isn't any different from letting the motor sit for a long time, all the oil runs out of the pump but a small amount does lat in the two low curves of the pump so some stays there for the gears to spin in and make at least some seal that causes the suction. That's all that makes the pump work is the oil trapped in between the pump gears. The main galley is about half inch in diameter and it runs all the way through the block and in the back there's a plug in it, you didn't leave that out did you ? In the front of the block at the deck they drill a hole straight down to intersect with that main galley and that's the feed the head. if oil gets to the head and there is some pressure it must be in the main galley and the sending unit hole is in that same galley and that hole and that passage to the head aren't much more than an inch apart from each other. If you have a truck motor you have a direct drive starter don't you or you have the gear reduction starter? Its only about 150rpms for cranking and that won't suck up oil from that tube way back there at those rpms unless you packed the pump for a complete seal for the gears. The "normal" prime the pump is not for you letting the starter suck up the oil, its for letting your start the motor and it sucks it up. Packing the pump it will with just cranking and turbo people are used to these front tube pumps that have a shorter path so it takes less suction for that initial draw or if they slop oil from the pan and they will usually suck up oil with only "priming" it from what you are doing but truck motors with a suction path about two feet long just won't do that. I think you're going to have to start it and let the assembly lube do its job and hit the throttle and if you assembled it correctly it will suck the oil up. Your pump is the same as a turbo pump unless you are using an original pump on a pre84 motor and it just has thinner pump gears and a thinner pump front cover. A turbo pump doesn't put out one drop more than your pump. The motor in the oil flow picture has an even longer tube that extends down into a deeper rear sump than yours doeshttp://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM008054.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_99 Posted July 5, 2010 Report Share Posted July 5, 2010 I couldnt get my engine to show pressure either when I built it. I turned it over for 2 complete battery drain cycles trying to get it to show pressure and it still didnt. I finally decided to just hook up the injectors and the coil and see what happens, being fully prepared to shut it off if it didnt show pressure after a sec or 2. When it first fired up it jumped straight up to 90 psi and has held great pressure every time Ive started it. If you have assembly lube in everything and feel certain that it is built correctly and "should" have pressure, fire it up for 2-3 seconds and see. A couple of seconds wont be enough to hurt anything if for some reason it doesnt jump right up. BC_99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidinator Posted July 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 (edited) So I fired up the beast for about 10 seconds at 2000rpm (a surprisingly long time with open headers,and not sound dampening)....Nothing!! I'm back where I started. What could be misassembled that would cause the head to get oil but not the main gallery? All plugs are in, the balance shafts have been removed and all of the engine bearings are facing the right way and are on the right side. based on the diagram I don't see how this is even possible! what is going on with this thing! has anything like this happened to anyone? thank you one and all for your help (especially you Indiana) Edited July 7, 2010 by Raidinator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted July 7, 2010 Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 Crazy idea but did you use a turbo oil pump gasket with an NA pump? If you primed it thru the sall hole in front of the filter then you should have pressure there. Dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted July 7, 2010 Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 All the gaskets have that hole open turbo or not, just the turbo backing plate covers the opening. I've not seen a solid gasket that covers that hole. This is why I don't see how he has oil in the head, or what seems to be oil but if you ran that motor for that long and it did have pressure in the head, then your sending unit is busted. If you still haven't seen oil from the pump, you may have to rev it higher briefly, this is why you used assembly lube. You got the pick up tube on right? If it did suck up oil then just with the starter cranking the motor over if the valve cover was off oil would pour out all over the exhaust and intake manifolds. If that oil is there then its in the rest of the motor too its not possible that its not. Your BESK, you put the stub into the gear where the shaft would have been then put it and the other gear back in the pump case right? The gear on the chain uses a key way and that still must be used. We had this happen with that b2600 motor and we ended up having to put assembly lube in the pump to get it to draw up the oil initially. How much trouble is it to remove the oil pan? You could pump oil into the passage in the block to reach the pump and get to the gears then have someone crank the motor over and you just hold a pan or pail of oil under the pickup tube until it sucks the oil up and you see it then put the pan back on. The pickup tube uses a gasket, did you put that in? If its LEAKING and not sealed it will suck air there and not oil. Did you use any gasket sealer or silicone on the oil pump gasket? You aren't supposed to...it can squish around and block a passage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidinator Posted July 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 I like all these theories sadly none of them fit - I remember assembling the oil pump because the key way took me forever (someone thought it would be cute to make the bottom of the trench and the bottom of the key round)- there is a gasket on the oil pickup tube- there is not sealant around to the oil pump (or anywhere for that matter) only the standard gaskets I guess I need to create more suction my new plan is to pump a small amount more oil into the priming hole and then crank it up to 3000 rpm for about 10 seconds (or until I lose my nerve) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted July 8, 2010 Report Share Posted July 8, 2010 it's a little time consumeing but remove the frt cover,, remove the oil pump chain,, use an impac or drill to spin the oil pump ,if it don't pump oil ,, remove the oil pump and do a complete inspection and blow air or oil thru the out side hole to make sure it's open to the pump and lastly but not least PRIME the oil pump this time also what oil pan did you use,, no way you would need 10qts of oil to reach the full mark,, the truck dip stick was place'd in the block near the oil filter NOT the oil pan question does this block have the removeable plate on the upper bal shaft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidinator Posted July 9, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 Ok I drained a quart of oil and pumped it through the priming hole (making 6 quarts in the engine, right at the full mark on the dip stick) i then cranked it up 3000-3500 for about 10 seconds still nothing at all. - yes I have a removable upper balance shaft plate why?- I don't have time to pull the timing cover these days - I am no longer convinced the bearings are still OK, they had assembly lube but I'm concerned that in my effort to get suction I might have scuffed them by now. does anyone want to buy half done raider? it's a mechanics special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted July 9, 2010 Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 You really want to sell??? Location?? Dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 you can play with it for days but 2 hours is too much effort to put into it to find the real problem ???? the reason i ask'd about the side plate is the last raider block i was into DID NOT HAVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidinator Posted July 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 I was just joking about selling it (unless of course you would like to make an offer) anyway I 'm a little broke right now so as soon as I can get my hands on some gaskets i'm planning on pulling this thing apart one more time and inspect the oil pump and fill it with a whole lot of assembly lube. thanks you everyone for your help and ideas. I'll be sure to update the forum as soon as i am able to tear into this thing. thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 wait till you get the gaskets,, it's been my experiance you do the work find out what you need then order,, can save you money that way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidinator Posted July 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2010 Alright I got the gaskets and found some time. I tore the thing apart and discovered I couldn't fit my drill between the rad support and the oil pump to spin it, so lacking an impact wrench I just pulled the pump. I took the little punk apart and inspected the whole thing. it looked fine (like a new pump should). I then filled it with assembly lube and spun it by hand once it was back together. I pumped about one bottle of assembly lube in one hole and out the other. the oil pump is fine. I filled the pump once again with assembly lube, installed it and put the rest of the beast back together. I fired it up and still no oil pressure. the only other theories I have is that:-the pickup isn't installed or it is cracked -there is some kind of blockage pretty early in the oil track-that there is a fracture in the block introducing air into the system and removing all the necessary suction. My classes at college start in less than 2 weeks, one of those weeks I can't work on it. My new lease begins in three weeks so I am out of time. I will no longer have the facilities or the time to play games with this thing. I need to pull the engine tomorrow or the next day and fix this thing or get rid of it. does anyone have any theories besides the lack of an oil pickup tube? by the way if this thing does not have oil psi in a few days it will be in the "for sale" section with a bunch of starion related goodies thanks again to everyone who has helped me out so far, I don't mean to jump ship I still think I can fix this thing i just need to know when to call it if it comes to that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psu_Crash Posted July 26, 2010 Report Share Posted July 26, 2010 I don't know about the truck setup much, but with the pickup tube on a SQ if the O-ring on the pickup is shot or not seated well it will suck air and not build pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted July 26, 2010 Report Share Posted July 26, 2010 what is this engine in and what'd it come out in,, you can not mix truck parts,, does you oil pump have a bottom mount pick up tube,, or a mid block pick up the oil pump gasket is diff with each oil pump,,the in block pick up hole is block'd on the conquest oil pump after 84 leave the oil filter off with a pan under the car and crank the engine,, does oil come out the hole ,,do not start the engine are you useing hyd lifters if so they are eather geting oil or they should be clacking by now and why not take the 10 min and remove the rad ,,also the frt cover of the engine does not have to be on to crank the engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidinator Posted July 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2010 shelby: I of course I removed the radiator, the support behind it it what is screwing with me, this engine is the 2.6 carb engine available in the 87-89 raiders and monteros. the oil pickup is at the back of the engine near the flywheel in order to clear the 4wd system. I do have hydro lifters, but I also have open headers so I have no idea if they are ticking. ok so it looks like the only viable theory is that my oil pickup is jacked up in some way. tonight I'm going to pull the engine and take a close look at the whole thing. I don't think I can drop the pan in car because of the front diff. and because the rubber gasket I bought is a pain to get on even when the motor is on a stand. it's impossible if it's in the car, over a front axle. If any one has another bright idea to try while I have the engine out please let me know. I don't want to pull this thing twice by the way I can get the motor out and in in about 5 hours based on past experience, so so long as it's out how long do you think it would take to swap my current open front dif with a LSD I have o the shelf? has anyone done a diff swap? if so how long did it take you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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