Apache Pilots Fire on Camera Men

[Side-Swipe]

http://collateralmurder.com/

 

All the vids are up there. I was disgusted at their demeanor of killing people and laughing.

[Frenchi934]

Didn't watch the whole thing but the guy with the camera peeking around the corner and guys walking with straps across their shoulder could be mistaken for people carrying guns...especially the guy who peeked around the corner at the beginning. The camera probably caught a clearer view of the people on the ground than the guys in the helicopter did and hindsight is always 20/20...

 

I've heard that your judgement and mindset can totally change in war, and I think it's hard for anyone to watch this video and be objective about it.

 

Not saying I know what went on there, or what the guys thought when they were shooting, but it doesnt seem out of the realm of possiblity that they genuinely believed they were firing on armed insurgents.

[Fanta]

Ah, this is a little bit old. It was that video that brought Wikileaks into the lime light by the way ( when Bradeley Manning submitted it plus numerous other things to the site )

[Metric-man]

I went to Iraq because what I saw when I was over there was soldiers—young kids for the most part—helping people in Iraq; helping getting the power turned back on, helping get hospitals open, helping get the water turned back on and you don't hear any of that on the news. You hear, 'X number of people were killed today,' which I think does a huge disservice. It's like spitting on these young men and women who are over there fighting to help this country

 

 

MMMM Girl Scout cookies are goood!!! http://www.lightningunitedsoccer.org/American-flag-waving.gif

 

 

http://collateralmurder.com/

 

All the vids are up there. I was disgusted at their demeanor of killing people and laughing.

 

It is a travesty that these people that live in a war zone were killed.

 

Basically what you are saying it is OK to place others military and civilians

(at home and abroad) lives at risk by releasing and supporting this Wiki Leaks material.

 

The reason there are such things as protocol, is not to protect the criminals,

but to allow the people that are assigned to tasks that are important, to do there job.

By taking away those protocols, your taking away those controls that were given in the first place so how can those people do there jobs ?

 

The person who is supposedly in jail, if indeed he did find something astonishing or absurd, had no place giving that information to anyone but his superiors,

not to some informational website for it to be published.

 

The reason this effects others is because it was release in a manner that is insensitive to the image held by the citizens that ultimately support

and are physically part of the effort to have our freedoms not be controlled by outsiders.

 

By approving and supporting this type of action, you essentially are giving away the control that our freedoms are based on.

 

Let's face the facts "Julian Assange" the founder of Wiki Leaks if that is his real name,

isn't really concerned about the welfare of the United States, he is not a citizen,

he wants to be identified as an individual responsible for showing us his version of the truth ,

obviously to meet his own self serving needs and to promote his website.

 

I see the videos as they are presented to be manipulated (painted) in a manner that is meant to draw sympathy to those who want to

(for what ever reason) stop the efforts of the military, we do not know for certain where the video was or when it was taken,

or if the voices we hear are the actual voices of the crew of that helicopter (or if it is owned by our government),

we don't even know if the person at the podium speaking about the videos is a recruit , or just an actor that is being paid.

 

As far as judging the voices of the Apache Pilots and gunners,

I realize to some one that has never been in the situation that they are placed.

Can not understand the stress associated with their jobs.

 

Let me paint this scenario,

You are employed as a guard to watch a 12 foot fence in the middle of nowhere,

You are instructed to shoot to kill anyone who tries to climb either side of the fence.

 

Now let me ask you this, (be honest with yourself)

If you laughed, do you think you were laughing because you thought it was funny ?

or because you knew your responsibility was serious ?

 

Now how should someone else who may hear you laugh (even your boss) interpret that?

 

 

http://madmimi.com/system/promotion_images/0075/3110/fraudalert.gif

 

Wall street journal Dec 6 2010 page A17 print

 

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange hopes to hobble the US government

 

Whatever else WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange has accomplished, he's ended the era of innocent optimism about the Web. As wiki innovator Larry Sanger put it in a message to WikiLeaks, "Speaking as Wikipedia's co-founder, I consider you enemies of the U.S.—not just the government, but the people."

 

The irony is that WikiLeaks' use of technology to post confidential U.S. government documents will certainly result in a less free flow of information. The outrage is that this is Mr. Assange's express intention.

 

 

In 2006, Mr. Assange wrote a pair of essays, "State and Terrorist Conspiracies" and "Conspiracy as Governance." He sees the U.S. as an authoritarian conspiracy. "To radically shift regime behavior we must think clearly and boldly for if we have learned anything, it is that regimes do not want to be changed," he writes. "Conspiracies take information about the world in which they operate," he writes, and "pass it around the conspirators and then act on the result."

 

His central plan is that leaks will restrict the flow of information among officials—"conspirators" in his view—making government less effective. Or, as Mr. Assange puts it, "We can marginalize a conspiracy's ability to act by decreasing total conspiratorial power until it is no longer able to understand, and hence respond effectively to its environment. . . . An authoritarian conspiracy that cannot think efficiently cannot act to preserve itself."

 

Berkeley blogger Aaron Bady last week posted a useful translation of these essays. He explains Mr. Assange's view this way: "While an organization structured by direct and open lines of communication will be much more vulnerable to outside penetration, the more opaque it becomes to itself (as a defense against the outside gaze), the less able it will be to 'think' as a system, to communicate with itself." Mr. Assange's idea is that with enough leaks, "the security state will then try to shrink its computational network in response, thereby making itself dumber and slower and smaller."

 

Mr. Assange doesn't mail bombs, but his actions have life-threatening consequences. Consider the case of a 75-year-old dentist in Los Angeles, Hossein Vahedi. According to one of the confidential cables released by WikiLeaks, Dr. Vahedi, a U.S. citizen, returned to Iran in 2008 to visit his parents' graves. Authorities confiscated his passport because his sons worked as concert promoters for Persian pop singers in the U.S. who had criticized the theocracy.

 

The cable reported that Dr. Vahedi decided to escape by horseback over the mountains of western Iran and into Turkey. He trained by hiking the hills above Tehran. He took extra heart medication. But when he fell off his horse, he was injured and nearly froze. When he made it to Turkey, the U.S. Embassy intervened to stop him being sent back to Iran.

 

"This is very bad for my family," Dr. Vahedi told the New York Daily News on being told about the leak of the cable naming him and describing his exploits. Tehran has a new excuse to target his relatives in Iran. "How could this be printed?"

 

Excellent question. It's hard being collateral damage in the world of WikiLeaks.

Edited December 6, 2010 by starion_cult

[lmwii]

we do not know for certain where the video was or when it was taken, or if the voices we hear are the actual voices of the crew of that helicopter (or if it is owned by our government), we don't even know if the person at the podium speaking about the videos is a recruit , or just an actor that is being paid.

i agree.

[IntercooledFlatty]

Kill em all, let GOD sort them out

[Fanta]

That site is a two-edged sword. Some things ultimately should be revealed ( such as the ballistic missles Iran procured from North Korea actually have a lot longer range than what the media has been told - they're range is more around 2,000+ miles) Others, who cares ( e.g. Libya's leader Muammar Gaddafi keeps a cadre of four blond Ukrainian nurses around him at all times ). Both items were considered classified and in the recent cable documents release. On the flip side, those cable documents also revealed that China is becoming less supportive of North Korea and is willing to contemplate unification of the peninsula under the leadership of the South Korean government in Seoul. Also, In Iran, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad discovered through that cable leak that while his arab neighbors were publicly making nice, privately they were pleading with the U.S. to launch an attack against Irans nuclear program. Pretty sure both cables of information such as that is definitely going to change things drastically. Then there's the Guantanamo Bay documents that reveal a determination to hide prisoner's from the Red Cross, which violates human rights. Hell, you can find Wesley Snipes tax returns on that site.

 

Although, to be fair, Wikileaks has approached the United States government to review the information prior to release for any sensitive/vital info that should be with held, the United States government refused ( British agreed and some info was never released ).

Edited December 2, 2010 by Fanta

[IntercooledFlatty]

more awesomeness ( old but good ) http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80564413/

[patra_is_here]

that apache video is old. there was tons of news stories on it. i suggest reading both sides of the argument. btw, at least one guy had an RPG.

 

theres an article on of the american enlisted who was down on the ground during that. i guess the van had a family with two kids in it and those guys walking obviously weren't all insurgents.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/9136984.stm

 

 

i suggest reading through the BBC to get the best middle of the road view.

[Fanta]

that apache video is old. there was tons of news stories on it. i suggest reading both sides of the argument. btw, at least one guy had an RPG.

 

theres an article on of the american enlisted who was down on the ground during that. i guess the van had a family with two kids in it and those guys walking obviously weren't all insurgents.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/9136984.stm

 

 

i suggest reading through the BBC to get the best middle of the road view.

 

if I recall right, the girl survived too.

[BrazilBoy]

RPG

 

http://www.militaryspot.com/gallery/data/511/medium/rpg.jpg

 

Camera man with copter in flight will resemble a guy with an RPG poiting at them...don't ya think

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060530/060530_douglas_vmed_12p.widec.jpg

[89PalermoSHP]

its obvious in the video one guy had an AK and the other a RPG. the bottom line of that vidoe is that war is ugly but its the bigger picture people need to figure out, why we are there at all...

[Side-Swipe]

its obvious in the video one guy had an AK and the other a RPG. the bottom line of that vidoe is that war is ugly but its the bigger picture people need to figure out, why we are there at all...

 

Exactly.

 

The chopper pilots were the go ahead before they even said they had an RPG. How about the other video where they attacka apartment building with hellfire missles, claiming the building is abandoned then under construction.

[mistapickles]

The bottom line is, if you are in a war zone your odds of getting killed become astronomical, if you think getting that picture is worth your life, then go for it...if not...Starbucks is hiring...If Rancho Cucamonga was to become a war zone today, myself and my daughters would not be here, you wouldn't have to feel sorry for me because my kid got shot, regardless of our economic position I wouldn't be in a war zone. Whether that means we move to Canada or Mexico or further out, so be it. I'd pick jalepenos in Mexico before I'd live in a war torn US with my kids, ANYWHO, did those fools get merc'd or what? lol, that copter had to be about a mile and a half to two miles away for the gun to shoot and have impact that much later(talking about the 40 minute video) Talk about it being just like Call of Duty...made me want to re-enlist in the Marines...

 

And if you watch the whole video you'll see that the camera man was with dudes with ak-47s...

Edited December 2, 2010 by mistapickles

[83_project_toy]

my question is why where they walking around with a known enemy of the us in a war zone? also that video looked like a it was taken from a ac-130 gunship not a apache. the gunships fly's in circles and takes awhile for shell impacts which those look more like the guns 40mm bofors then the apache's chain gun which they try to sit still to shot.

[patra_is_here]

RPG

 

 

 

Camera man with copter in flight will resemble a guy with an RPG poiting at them...don't ya think

 

 

 

im just saying that the interview with the guy on the ground, mentions an RPG laying at the scene of all the deaths.

[IntercooledFlatty]

Kill em all, let GOD sort them out

 

they brought their kids to a war zone

[patra_is_here]

And if you watch the whole video you'll see that the camera man was with dudes with ak-47s..

 

i think everyone walks around with ak47's in iraq, regardless of if you're fighting the americans or not. i know i would be armed i lived in that neighborhood.

[Side-Swipe]

i think everyone walks around with ak47's in iraq, regardless of if you're fighting the americans or not. i know i would be armed i lived in that neighborhood.

 

There was one ak and one rpg

[patra_is_here]

yeah dude. one ak and one rpg means that everyone in the area gets killed. haven't you read the handbook. I'm pretty sure it's covered in the geneva convention.

[NudeLobster]

Ok I'm sorry, but don't go blaming the soldiers. They are at war. They need to protect themselves from the enemy. The enemy, who is dressed JUST LIKE civilians. A civilian over there can pull an AK on you out of his pajama's before you can blink. They can whip out an RPG and fire at your helicopter before you can react. Point is, sometimes they need to make decisions that could go either way. IT'S WAR. It's their fault they are there in war, their fault they are socializing or walking with a fighting factor. I don't care who they shot, crap happens in war, and it happens fast. Your reactions and senses are heightened such that a hadji dressed in his pajama's with a camera on his soldier would easily be confused for an enemy with an RPG, especially when he is WITH enemies.

 

If you think it's so bad that this happened, then how bout you go over there, pilot a helicopter or go clear buildings, and deal with enemies who disguise as civilians until the last second. Your fighting for your life; If your worried that much that you might shoot an innocent civilian that is acting suspicious, or you take second thoughts before pulling that trigger, then you don't belong there, and you will die. With enemies mixing in with civilians, and attacking in a split second from civilian areas/groups, the rule shoot first ask questions later really does apply. If you ask yourself first, and then shoot...you will be dead before you can even answer your question.

 

War is war. Get over it, if you think you can do better then get your tail over there and prove it. Until then, us civilians back home have no right to open our mouth against our soldiers and their actions.

 

God bless all that (have) serve(d),

 

-Justin

[patra_is_here]

last time i checked, there's still no evidence of weapons of mass destruction. america isn't at war. The Iraqis are at war. The Iraqis are at war against the invading force of america. you say god bless those who serve, I say god bless em and get em back here. I can't even imagine what it would be like knowing I blew apart some children in to little pieces. or maiming innocent women and children and men. the idea that's it's justifiable because it's war is like saying it's ok to kill anyone you want simply because you've decided to go to war against them.

 

if i was unfortunate enough to be in the services deployed to iraq, the conflict of serving your country even though you know you're not really serving your country, and you're basically a pawn in a land and power grab by your countries elite would tare me up inside. oh hey, I blew the face off of someone who was trying to defend themselves and their land as I try to take if from them.

Edited December 3, 2010 by patra_is_here

[Side-Swipe]

yeah dude. one ak and one rpg means that everyone in the area gets killed. haven't you read the handbook. I'm pretty sure it's covered in the geneva convention.

 

Yeah its in the part where if civilians to evacuate the wounded they get bombed.

[patra_is_here]

Yeah its in the part where if civilians to evacuate the wounded they get bombed.

 

oh, glad to see you got the memo

[Side-Swipe]

Last time i checked everyone in iraq has AKs not just the opposing force. God i bet those chopper pilots were so scared from one unguided RPG. Edited December 3, 2010 by Side-Swipe