Army: 12 die, 31 wounded in Fort Hood shooting

[chiplee]

I'll take a stab at this. They aren't intellectual, and they aren't honest.

 

it's sincerely wonderful to read a rational comment from an old friend right now, Edde. It gets pretty frustrating being surrounded by "anti-thought" as my fiance and I have taken to calling it.

 

To that point tonight at dinner we discussed how infrequent it is for a person's political views to migrate from liberal to conservative, vice the other way around. She was once a Republican as was I. We seemed to agree that our experiences, or "migrations" from conservative to liberal were the more "common" directions to migrate. This "seems" telling if you think about it, but as I'm about to discuss, we don't particularly like to allow ourselves to value how things "seem". I suggested that conservatism sort of "comes naturally" when a person relies on how things seem to them. In other words, a "basically educated" human without the benefit of serious research will tend to espouse conservative political views. Then, and much more research is required on this subject, after gaining some perspective and perhaps a degree or two, people seem to tend toward more liberal views. Again, we have to do the research, but common stereotypes corroborate our analysis. There is a "left wing/intellectual/socialist/wealthy" stereotype, and there is a "right wing/uneducated/fearful/poor" stereotype.

 

I don't necessarily think either stereotype is purely accurate, but I do wonder why there seems to be such a mental disconnect on the right. How do they not catch themselves applying one standard to themselves, and a completely different standard to everyone else? Is it as simple as what you said? They're not intellectual and they're dishonest? I'd like to think not but it's difficult. And, don't get me wrong, I realize there are stupid liberals and brilliant conservatives, but I'm talking about trends here; trends about the general standards people of differing "worldviews" hold themselves to when they "think". I for instance literally cannot stop myself from questioning my decisions on important topics. I wonder if my natural tendency toward self deception and thought bias has crept in unobserved and muddied the picture I've developed. The more I learn the more humbled I am by how much I really do not know. If I begin to feel confident about a certain topic I start to suspect that I must be missing something and that more research is required. It's exciting and frustrating at the same time. I've come to realize there are no absolutes, and that smart sounding one liners tend to really suck upon further examination. Default respect of one's elders' opinions is polite, but not necessarily wise. We shouldn't necessarily honor tradition.

 

I'm rambling I know, but I really would like to figure out what about self questioning frightens some humans to the point that they flat out refuse to do it. I mean eventually it is very liberating and rewarding. When you finally do arrive at ideas you're willing to call "conclusions" you can have more confidence about them, and feel more sure of yourself and your surroundings. When someone doubts you you will most likely have evaluated the merits of that person's argument on your own before allowing yourself to settle on your current view, so you'll be prepared for their argument.

 

I wonder if most people have even conceptualized "intellectual honesty". Do they know it's as simple as not allowing yourself the comfortable mental benefit of a logical double standard? Do they know what that means? If so and they ignore it then how can they be happy? If not then how can they be happy? Or is ignorance truly blissful?

 

Anyway, over the years I've come to be very happy for you as a person, man. It's apparently more of an accomplishment than I've been realizing to arrive at a worldview as healthy as yours and mine, and we should be proud of it. What a shame it must be to die in fear and ignorance. Amy and I celebrate every day together in our intellectually honest home. I wish I could figure out a way to tell people how to get that for themselves.

Edited November 6, 2009 by chiplee

[Komeuppance]

I think the short answer is: "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

 

-Robert

[JustPaus_88TSi]

I couldn't agree more. As soon as this hit the news today the shooter's name caused a rash of speculation about the guy's motive being related to his "Muslim" faith. The hypocrisy is disgusting. When a Christian bombs an abortion clinic the consensus among moderate Americans is that the bomber was simply misguided, or that he/she didn't understand Christianity. When a Muslim caps a dozen people though it's "THAT'S HOW MUSLIMS ARE!!!!" They're ALL murderers and that's what Islam does to its followers. One bad deed performed by a member of ANY other faith is a referendum on the ENTIRE faith system. One bad deed done by a member of their OWN faith is a referendum solely on that individual. What a joke. How do people that intellectually dishonest not catch themselves telling intellectual lies in their own heads?

 

Chip, that would require people to employ a level of extrospect(extrospection?) that is epistemically distinctive without being subjectively reactionary in their thought processes. Do you really expect the majority of people to fall into such a realm of self knowledge? If so, you have a lot of faith brother. Most people lack the self-tenacity(I think I just made that term up) to even strive towards understanding their own cognitive awareness at all, let alone any senior aspect of it beyond mere acknowledgement.

 

Before 9/11, muslims were from "over there" somewhere and their culture wasn't really understood by anyone other than people who were interested for their own reasons. After 9/11, everyone got their own form of crash course on islam and their opinions/feelings were formed from nothing more than the acts of those who chose to inflict terror and mayhem in the name of an imaginary friend. Is it wrong to form such knee-jerk opinions? I think so, yes. However, given the events in New York, I really can't fault them.

 

It breaks down to a defensive mechanism really. If we grew up together, and once a week you paint your face blue and punch me, I wouldn't trust those other blue faced psycho's for a long time(if ever).

What do I gain from being weary of the blue-faced-freaks? Heightened awareness that may thwart further physical abuse.

What do I lose? Not getting to know the "good" blue-faced people which i've only heard about thus far, and the possible ridicule from those who don't attribute violence to all the blue-faced people.

Which actions keep me safe? The former, as wrong as it may seem from the outside, i'm still safer by having some situational awareness.

 

In reality, I treat most people as if they plan to do me harm, because you never know. Be polite, efficient, and have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

 

The fact that "most" terrorists we hear about in the news are Muslims does not give any of us the right to apply a double standard like I've described above. Why is it so hard for so many people to be intellectually honest?

 

It's hard to be self-serving and objective all the time while living in the midst of any religion and its double standards.

 

Sometimes I have to remind myself that most people you speak of are religious, and it doesn't usually pertain to me.

Edited November 6, 2009 by JustPaus_88TSi

[BrazilBoy]

Bad news...I heard another of our brave soldiers did not survive surgery so the death toll climbs to 13...May God be with thier family...

[AutoBodyGod]

This is really sad and has made me feel as if I lost my whole family. Edited November 6, 2009 by AutoBodyGod

[redecocav]

I don't care if your whole family is from the middle east, we can go on & on about this crap about rape and murders. This is about today and what homeland security is not doing to prevent this s*** from happening again. Do you think the middle east would let Americans come over there to live and fight with their troops against us? Hell no they wouldn't! Just because your friends from the middle east was born here, does not justify Americans are safe. You just remember one thing....blood is thicker than water.

 

Just to let you know I am in NO WAY defending his actions.

 

Anyone can "snap" and go on a killing spree. Some people are mentally stronger than others. Hell I am deploying in less than 40 days to do a year tour in Iraq, but I haven't had one crazy thought, does that mean others haven't, NO. I have a couple of soldiers in my unit that are getting discharged from the service because they are mentally unstable. Had he have gotten discharged could it have prevented this, NO. Civilians have certain access to military installations, so any loon could damn near come on post and go on a shooting spree.

 

Its purely ridiculous to drag an entire religion through the mud due to a few peoples actions.

 

They haven't even said anything about the other 2 suspects. For all you know they could be Americans.

 

How would you suggest the military prevent these actions?

 

There are thousands of people on a military installation at any given time. Its IMPOSSIBLE to keep eyes on everyone.

 

That's like asking why haven't the local police prevented all the murders that happen in your area.

 

Here's something to choke down...

 

1 killed, 20 injured; Ft. Bragg, NC 1995

http://edition.cnn.com/US/9510/sniper/am/index.html

 

1 killed, 1 suicide; Ft. Lewis, WA 2009

http://www.kirotv.com/news/20144615/detail.html

 

Next thing you know you will be saying the military should just shut down so no one gets killed.

 

Ignorance is bliss after all, I guess.

[xtremeboost]

This is about today and what homeland security is not doing to prevent this s*** from happening again. Do you think the middle east would let Americans come over there to live and fight with their troops against us? Hell no they wouldn't!

 

 

Think about what you just stated there ...... Get ready for gun control !

[FlattopMike]

I treat most people as if they plan to do me harm, because you never know. Be polite, efficient, and have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

 

 

Quote of the day

[RWDAddict]

Think about what you just stated there ...... Get ready for gun control !

 

Gun control? This wasn't a civilian shooting it was done by a ranking officer. This isn't the wild west, most people are well intentioned and if they were allowed to free carry in that base there would have only been one death.

[xtremeboost]

Gun control? This wasn't a civilian shooting it was done by a ranking officer. This isn't the wild west, most people are well intentioned and if they were allowed to free carry in that base there would have only been one death.

 

 

ok .....

[Shelby]

I treat most people as if they plan to do me harm, because you never know. Be polite, efficient, and have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

.....................................................................................................................

 

 

if this is realy true , then you need some professional help

thats not a normal feeling

 

I meet strangers as a friend i haven't met yet , but that don't mean you can't keep a cautious eye open , if you look for the good in people you may find it but if all you look for is the bad you'l certianly find it

[Guest]

The capacity for the mind to "snap" is present in humans of all colors, race, religion, sexual preference or whatever other label you want to slap on them. Making a judgemental statement about an entire race of people is crossing the line from prejudice to just plain racist. We are all prejudice, it's just impossible for us to filter out all that we have seen, heard or been exposed to that shape our perspective of our social surrounding and understanding of all that is our environment.

 

But when you act on those prejudicial precursors, you cross the line to racism. The fact is, a person killed other persons. His mind snapped, that happens to people of any background.

 

Does his association with Muslims or his views on Mid East wars and anti American sentiment have an influence in his thought process or lack thereof? It most certainly does. But does that mean we must go beyond prejudgemental sentiment to racist ideology against all Muslims and Arabs? No.

 

It's impossible for authorities to monitor the everyone on the internet.

[indy_85stariones]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stereotype

Main Entry: stereotype

Function: noun

Etymology: French stéréotype, from stéré- stere- + type

Date: 1817

1 : a plate cast from a printing surface

2 : something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prejudice

Main Entry: prej·u·dice

Pronunciation: \ˈpre-jə-dəs\

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin praejudicium previous judgment, damage, from prae- + judicium judgment — more at judicial

Date: 13th century

1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims

2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

 

On one side of the equation...

Much harm comes to individual members of those groups that have fallen prey to stereotypes and prejudice. It is not fair to the individual to classify that person into one broad negative generalization.

 

 

On the other side of the equation...

There were many warning signs before this tragedy. It is unfortunate that there exists a subset of the Islam faith that see nothing wrong with using murder to further their cause. It is also unfortunate that this subset is growing in numbers.

 

If it is revealed that the person responsible for these murders did make the statement -- that muslims should rise up against the US forces (CONFIRMED by army report and FBI 6 months ago)...

 

Then those authorities of Ft Hood that were aware of those statements made a grave error on the wrong side of this equation. They errored on the side of (not falling into the trap of) Stereotypes and Prejudice.

 

Their error cost the lives of 12 of our finest soldiers.

[RWDAddict]

The capacity for the mind to "snap" is present in humans of all colors, race, religion, sexual preference or whatever other label you want to slap on them. Making a judgemental statement about an entire race of people is crossing the line from prejudice to just plain racist. We are all prejudice, it's just impossible for us to filter out all that we have seen, heard or been exposed to that shape our perspective of our social surrounding and understanding of all that is our environment.

 

But when you act on those prejudicial precursors, you cross the line to racism. The fact is, a person killed other persons. His mind snapped, that happens to people of any background.

 

Does his association with Muslims or his views on Mid East wars and anti American sentiment have an influence in his thought process or lack thereof? It most certainly does. But does that mean we must go beyond prejudgemental sentiment to racist ideology against all Muslims and Arabs? No.

 

It's impossible for authorities to monitor the everyone on the internet.

 

I do see where you are coming from and may very well be the case in this instance. The fact is we don't know what his train of thought was. Although what I do find interesting is what he screamed out before he started attacking - "Allahu Akbar!" (God is great!). Below is an eye witness account I found. The fact is everything is pointing to this being a sleeper cell or something to that extent. You don't just "snap" and yell out God is great and then carry out a killing spree in a very calm and organized manner.

 

"The Army psychiatrist suspected of being the lone gunman in a horrific massacre at Fort Hood in Texas took a "very calm and measured approach" to carrying out the mass shooting, the commanding general said Friday.

 

Survivors of the rampage that killed 13 and wounded 30 said the suspect, Major Nidal Malik Hasan, shouted "Allahu Akbar!" — "God is great!" in Arabic — before opening fire, base commander Lt. Gen. Robert Cone said."

Edited November 6, 2009 by RWDAddict

[brianpaul98]

it's sincerely wonderful to read a rational comment from an old friend right now, Edde. It gets pretty frustrating being surrounded by "anti-thought" as my fiance and I have taken to calling it.

 

To that point tonight at dinner we discussed how infrequent it is for a person's political views to migrate from liberal to conservative, vice the other way around. She was once a Republican as was I. We seemed to agree that our experiences, or "migrations" from conservative to liberal were the more "common" directions to migrate. This "seems" telling if you think about it, but as I'm about to discuss, we don't particularly like to allow ourselves to value how things "seem". I suggested that conservatism sort of "comes naturally" when a person relies on how things seem to them. In other words, a "basically educated" human without the benefit of serious research will tend to espouse conservative political views. Then, and much more research is required on this subject, after gaining some perspective and perhaps a degree or two, people seem to tend toward more liberal views. Again, we have to do the research, but common stereotypes corroborate our analysis. There is a "left wing/intellectual/socialist/wealthy" stereotype, and there is a "right wing/uneducated/fearful/poor" stereotype.

 

I don't necessarily think either stereotype is purely accurate, but I do wonder why there seems to be such a mental disconnect on the right. How do they not catch themselves applying one standard to themselves, and a completely different standard to everyone else? Is it as simple as what you said? They're not intellectual and they're dishonest? I'd like to think not but it's difficult. And, don't get me wrong, I realize there are stupid liberals and brilliant conservatives, but I'm talking about trends here; trends about the general standards people of differing "worldviews" hold themselves to when they "think". I for instance literally cannot stop myself from questioning my decisions on important topics. I wonder if my natural tendency toward self deception and thought bias has crept in unobserved and muddied the picture I've developed. The more I learn the more humbled I am by how much I really do not know. If I begin to feel confident about a certain topic I start to suspect that I must be missing something and that more research is required. It's exciting and frustrating at the same time. I've come to realize there are no absolutes, and that smart sounding one liners tend to really suck upon further examination. Default respect of one's elders' opinions is polite, but not necessarily wise. We shouldn't necessarily honor tradition.

 

I'm rambling I know, but I really would like to figure out what about self questioning frightens some humans to the point that they flat out refuse to do it. I mean eventually it is very liberating and rewarding. When you finally do arrive at ideas you're willing to call "conclusions" you can have more confidence about them, and feel more sure of yourself and your surroundings. When someone doubts you you will most likely have evaluated the merits of that person's argument on your own before allowing yourself to settle on your current view, so you'll be prepared for their argument.

 

I wonder if most people have even conceptualized "intellectual honesty". Do they know it's as simple as not allowing yourself the comfortable mental benefit of a logical double standard? Do they know what that means? If so and they ignore it then how can they be happy? If not then how can they be happy? Or is ignorance truly blissful?

 

Anyway, over the years I've come to be very happy for you as a person, man. It's apparently more of an accomplishment than I've been realizing to arrive at a worldview as healthy as yours and mine, and we should be proud of it. What a shame it must be to die in fear and ignorance. Amy and I celebrate every day together in our intellectually honest home. I wish I could figure out a way to tell people how to get that for themselves.

 

 

 

You know Chip I find it very difficult to even read your backward thinking comments. What you, your fiancee and every other like minded over educated intellectual liberal fails to understand in your very educated and very flawed way of thinking is that if CONSERVATIVE thinkers didn't found this country on CONSERVATIVE PRINCIPLES this country wouldn't be here because there weren't any brilliant intellectual socialist liberal thinkers among the founders. As a matter of fact that's exactly what our founding fathers were fighting against "tyranny" which is what the conservative is fighting against right now on the steps of our capital building. Looking at the way things are going its clear the liberals are trying to transform this country back into the European system of government which is exactly the reason why the great men who founded this country left Europe to start a new country here in the first place. Its the reason why they created the constitution to protect the American people from HUGE government and HUGE government control over our lives, our property and our finances. I tried to explain this to you before, re-read your constitution and show me where any liberal thought is aligned with anything our forefathers wrote in that great document.

 

 

Conservative -------------------- Liberal

 

Limited Government -------------------- More Big Government

 

Peoples Rights and Liberty ------------------- Government Laws and Regulations that take away our liberty

 

Capitalism -------------------- Socialism

 

 

 

 

This political fight between right and left or right and wrong has just begun.

 

 

My reply to your religious comment is this, read the Bible and the Koran and then you can compare the faith of the Christians and the Muslims and then you might understand why the two are on totally opposite ends of the religious spectrum.

 

 

Bible --- #6 commandment - Tho shalt not kill

 

Koran -- Kill the infidel - "a person who does not believe in religion or who adheres to a religion other than one's own"

 

 

If you need a few more examples here they are :

 

 

KORAN commands to kill infidels:

 

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

 

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

 

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

 

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

 

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216

 

(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you...... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

 

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

 

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

 

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

 

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

 

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

 

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

 

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

 

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

 

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

 

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

 

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

 

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

 

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

 

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29

 

(another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell.

 

(another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

 

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

 

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

 

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

 

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123

 

different translation: Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you.

 

(another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

 

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

 

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

 

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

 

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4

 

(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

 

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

 

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

 

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

 

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

 

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

 

 

Now I'm not saying that every single Muslim follows this teaching strictly but ther eare many very radical Muslims who do just the same as not all Christians follow the teaching of the bible. What I am stating is the VERY different contrast in teachings between the two religious beliefs.

Edited November 6, 2009 by brianpaul98

[FlattopMike]

Throughout history Christians have killed a lot more people in the name of their imaginary friend than Muslims have.

Although it does seem that they are trying to catch up.

 

In any case, I'm sure that this tragedy must be Obama's fault.

[brianpaul98]

Throughout history Christians have killed a lot more people in the name of their imaginary friend than Muslims have.

Although it does seem that they are trying to catch up.

 

In any case, I'm sure that this tragedy must be Obama's fault.

 

 

I can see how much you and your little athiest friend Chip have in common. I can also see that you research your replies about as well as Chip does... There is more documentation in every culture that proves Christ existed than any other faith on the face of the earth. You wouldn't happen to be a Mormon there would you flatty???

 

and of course its not Obamas fault, ITS BUSH'S FAULT same as everything else you libs come up with.

Edited November 7, 2009 by brianpaul98

[chiplee]

You know Chip I find it very difficult to even read your backward thinking comments. What you, your fiancee and every other like minded over educated intellectual liberal fails to understand in your very educated and very flawed way of thinking is that if CONSERVATIVE thinkers didn't found this country on CONSERVATIVE PRINCIPLES this country wouldn't be here because there weren't any brilliant intellectual socialist liberal thinkers among the founders.

 

For the sake of time I'm going to respond as if this is all true and simply say "so what?"

 

As a matter of fact that's exactly what our founding fathers were fighting against "tyranny"

 

True, but it was the tyranny of the conservative church.

 

which is what the conservative is fighting against right now on the steps of our capital building.

 

No, you're just listening to the wrong radio stations and believing things that reinforce your world view. You're the classic drunk under a lamp post with your "research". You need it for support, not illumination. You want to hear what supports what you already believe, so you don't care whether they're telling the truth. You just don't think about it that much.

 

Looking at the way things are going its clear the liberals are trying to transform this country back into the European system of government

 

How is it that it's clear to you but not clear to me? Could you please make it clear to me too so I can join you in your fight against it?

 

which is exactly the reason why the great men who founded this country left Europe to start a new country here in the first place. Its the reason why they created the constitution to protect the American people from HUGE government and HUGE government control over our lives, our property and our finances. I tried to explain this to you before, re-read your constitution and show me where any liberal thought is aligned with anything our forefathers wrote in that great document.

 

Yeah you did. And I replied, at length, telling you that I have read the constitution, the declaration of independence and the federalist papers. Apparently they didn't effect me the way they effected you.

 

 

 

 

My reply to your religious comment is this, read the Bible and the Koran and then you can compare the faith of the Christians and the Muslims and then you might understand why the two are on totally opposite ends of the religious spectrum.

 

Oh I might, might I? Why thank you. I suspect I've read more of the Bible and the Qur'an than you have, but lets ignore how obvious that is for just a few minutes.

 

 

Bible --- #6 commandment - Tho shalt not kill

 

Koran -- Kill the infidel - "a person who does not believe in religion or who adheres to a religion other than one's own"

 

Ok, just a quick disclaimer here. At this point I feel compelled to inform you that you have picked the wrong individual to engage on this subject. I've mended some fences recently and I'm doing everything in my power to turn over a new leaf and try not to crush people so harshly as I used to. To that end, you can back out now and simply not reply, and I will give you only a mild dose of reality. If you persist however, you are hereby forewarned, and the follow on dosage will be more severe. In either case, I will not be held accountable for your reaction to the truth you're about to be exposed to. You've clearly dodged the truth quite successfully in life to this point, and I wouldn't want to make your brain melt or anything.

 

 

If you need a few more examples here they are :

 

You could use a few examples yourself I see.

 

 

KORAN commands to kill infidels:

 

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

 

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

 

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

 

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

 

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216

 

(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you...... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

 

Deuteronomy

 

Kill everyone who has religious beliefs that are different from your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

 

All nations shall be terrorized by the followers of Yahweh. Deuteronomy 2:25

 

After God kills those of other faiths, be sure to reject their beliefs and do not learn about them. Otherwise God will have to kill you too. 12:30

 

Prophets and dreamers are to be executed if they say or dream the wrong things. 13:1-5

 

If your brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend tries to get you to worship another god, "thou shalt surely kill him, thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death." 13:6-10

 

If you hear of a city where another god is worshiped, then destroy everyone in the city (even the cattle) and burn it down. (Watch out Salt Lake City, Utah, Brian is on his way to burn your shti down!) 13:12-16

 

continued

[chiplee]

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

 

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

 

Hate the sinner -- or God will pour his wrath out on you. Psalms 19:2

 

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

 

The first commandment ("Thou shalt have no other gods before me.") condemns those who worship any other than the biblical god. Deuteronomy 5:4

 

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

 

At God's instructions, the Israelites "utterly destroyed the men, women, and the little ones" leaving "none to remain." Deuteronomy 2:33-36

 

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

 

Burn and "utterly detest" the religious symbols of other faiths. They are an abomination to God. If you bring such an image into your house you will become "a cursed thing like it." Deuteronomy 7:25-26

 

 

 

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

 

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

 

If you pray to God, he will kill your enemies for you. Psalms 9:3-6

 

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. Psalms 9:123

 

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

 

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

 

Also all from Psalms, but there are countless examples.

 

Atheists are fools who never do anything good. 14:1, 53:1

 

The God of peace teaches us how to kill our neighbors in war. 18:34

 

If you make God angry, he'll burn you and your children to death. 21:9-10

 

The psalmist sets an example for Christians by hating people but loving God. 31:6

 

A sweet prayer for the destruction of one's enemies: Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them.... Let destruction come upon him at unawares." 35:6,8

 

The Psalmist praises God for driving out and afflicting "the heathen" with his own hand. 44:2

 

If you forget God, God will tear you into pieces. 50:22

 

If you don't trust in God, he'll kill you and while you're dying the "righteous" will laugh at you. 52:5-7

 

God will send evil on the enemies of his followers. 54:5

 

 

 

Now I'm not saying that every single Muslim follows this teaching strictly but ther eare many very radical Muslims who do just the same as not all Christians follow the teaching of the bible. What I am stating is the VERY different contrast in teachings between the two religious beliefs.

 

What "VERY different contrast in teachings" were you referring to exactly? I'm also not certain why you thought it was necessary to post the same exact idea 5 or 6 times over and over again but I'm pretty quick on the uptake man. I get it. I've abbreviated my response but the point is that Biblical intolerance is common. It's also commonly understood that the Qur'an is a plagiarism of the Old Testament. It's also commonly understood that no part of the old testament law shall pass away until it is all fulfilled. It's obvious that you're a baby Christian, and a new testament reader only, but I suggest you reconsider that approach to your faith you think you know so well.

Edited November 7, 2009 by chiplee

[chiplee]

I can see how much you and your little athiest friend Chip have in common.

 

how much? I can't see it in that post but I want to know. How much?

 

I can also see that you research your replies about as well as Chip does...

 

I'd like to think Mike would take that as a compliment, but then he knows me a little better than you do.

 

There is more documentation in every culture that proves Christ existed than any other faith on the face of the earth.

 

Here we go. It's proven. It's a matter of faith. There are mountains of evidence, but you have to believe.

 

What difference does it make if Christ was a real person? Unless there are 24 hour surveillance tapes verifying that Mary was a virgin and the Christ rose from the dead, and Mary was assumed bodily into heaven, it's not very interesting to prove JC was a real guy.

 

You wouldn't happen to be a Mormon there would you flatty???

 

I would love to hear what you're getting at here. He's not, but what are you suggesting?

[Shelby]

whos to say how many have been kill'd by the Muslim followers , they have been fighting sence befor Mose's time and are still fighting amoungst them selves , i'l certianly grant that many have been kill'd in so call'd christian wars

but to say that those wars have kill'd more then they have them selves in several thousand years is streaching it a bit

we have no way of knowing the number of those kill'd but it has to be a huge number

 

actualy i'd be interst'd in knowing how many people the earth had on it 3 thousand years ago certianly wasn't any 5 billion people

and Hitlers killing 5 million people has to be more then any christian war ever even got close to matching

[chiplee]

whos to say how many have been kill'd by the Muslim followers , they have been fighting sence befor Mose's time

 

Sorry, no. Islam is roughly 1400 years old. The truth is that Islam is currently a more violent religion than Christianity, but to be fair, you would have to compare the two when they were closer to equally "old". When Christianity was 1400 years old it was a violent and ugly faith. There's no reason to expect Islam to be any worse once it's had as much time to Modernize.

 

and are still fighting amoungst them selves , i'l certianly grant that many have been kill'd in so call'd christian wars

but to say that those wars have kill'd more then they have them selves in several thousand years is streaching it a bit

we have no way of knowing the number of those kill'd but it has to be a huge number

 

The real point buried in what you're pointing out, Shelby, is that ALL religion is a cancer on this earth. So thanks.

 

actualy i'd be interst'd in knowing how many people the earth had on it 3 thousand years ago certianly wasn't any 5 billion people

and Hitlers killing 5 million people has to be more then any christian war ever even got close to matching

 

It is now known that Hitler conspired with the Catholic Church to commit the Holocaust, but even if you refuse to believe that, Hitler's motive was dogmatic thought. People who contend that Hitler's actions are a point against "atheist" thinking are people who miss the broader point. The same is true of Mao and Pol Pot and Stalin, the other commonly proclaimed atheist exemplars.

[Shelby]

Chip i'l give you one thing , as a young man i read the bible old testiment

and as an adult i reread it, and was taken back by all the killing .

even after being convert'd to christian belief ,they were kill'd .

if you don't beleave this read the life of Moses in the old testiment .

it certianly was a hard time to live thru ,,sort of like today

[hiko_seijuuro]

I feel very sad for all the people that are ignorant in this world always blaming everything on what race he is or who's fault is that it happened . but the truth is that this happens everywhere in the world and here in the united states on all races, white's, blacks, asian, hispanics, indians and yes also muslims. but the truth is that until the investigation is over nobody can sayor determine what is the cause of this, so far yes it looks like it might be something with terrorism but only when the investigation ends you will know the truth behind this so stop blogging about BS when none of you know the truth cuz none of u where there but i was there cuz yes thats where i work i was on lockdown till 0730 pm and wasnt able to leave base till almost 10pm but guess what even by me being there only a couple of blocks away from the situation, I still dont know what was the reason for this person to lose his mind and do what he did. Stop blaming races, presidents or religion for anything that happens cuz even one of your neighbors can lose his mind and kill everyone in your neighborhood including every single one of you and what are u going to blame it on if it happens race, religion oh yeah and the president come on guys anyone can get a nervous breakdown and who knows what will happen next. so remember that anything can happen at anyplace and at any second so dont be pointing fingers to say its your fault cuz u could be there and guess what some will point that finger to you and blame u for it and you will probably say it wasnt my fault so thats my 2 cents.

[FlattopMike]

I can see how much you and your little athiest friend Chip have in common. I can also see that you research your replies about as well as Chip does... There is more documentation in every culture that proves Christ existed than any other faith on the face of the earth. You wouldn't happen to be a Mormon there would you flatty???

 

and of course its not Obamas fault, ITS BUSH'S FAULT same as everything else you libs come up with.

 

This really isn't worth replying to but I did want to say to Chip that I would consider the research comment a compliment if it were true. You obviously research the subjects you discuss for more than I do.

 

And I too would like to know what the Mormon comment was about but I doubt we ever will.