BRAKE UPGRADE 3000GT vr4

[shift1313]

found this while browsing the net. looks like some good info.

 

http://www.hotrodheaven.com/tech/brakes/brakes5_index.htm

 

just use the center drop down box at the bottom to navigate the different articles

 

also wilwoods tech tips

 

http://www.wilwood.com/Centers/Information/pages/techtip.asp

 

I sent an email off to wilwood to see what they think about the difference in caliper piston area and what size master they recommend.

 

I also forgot to post numbers for the brake pedal yesterday. Its roughly 14" from pivot to the center of the pedal pad, and its roughly 3.5" from the center of the pivot to the brake clevis pivot. This gives a pedal ratio of 4. If i alter this pivot point up it would give us a larger advantage requiring less force input to get the same force output but more travel of the brake rod. This would only be beneficial if there is enough pedal travel with the stock master or whatever master cylinder upgrade is found. Master cylinder stroke is 1.5"

Edited July 12, 2008 by shift1313

[JamesR]

What year & engine 300ZX? I looked through all combinations (NA, 2+2, turbo) on the later years (94-96) and didn't see a 1 1/16" MC listed.

 

Here's some info from my notes:

 

46010-30P01 Manufacture date 2/89 – 7/90 (17/16" NA Tokico)

46010-30P02 Manufacture date 7/89 – 7/90 (17/16" TT Tokico)

46010-30P02 Manufacture date 7/90 – 2/91 (17/16" NA & TT Tokico)

46010-30P21 Manufacture date 2/89 – 7/90 (17/16" NA Nabco)

46010-30P22 Manufacture date 7/89 – 7/90 (17/16" TT Nabco)

46010-30P22 Manufacture date 7/90 – 2/91 (17/16" NA & TT Nabco)

[shift1313]

Here's some info from my notes:

 

46010-30P01 Manufacture date 2/89 – 7/90 (17/16" NA Tokico)

46010-30P02 Manufacture date 7/89 – 7/90 (17/16" TT Tokico)

46010-30P02 Manufacture date 7/90 – 2/91 (17/16" NA & TT Tokico)

46010-30P21 Manufacture date 2/89 – 7/90 (17/16" NA Nabco)

46010-30P22 Manufacture date 7/89 – 7/90 (17/16" TT Nabco)

46010-30P22 Manufacture date 7/90 – 2/91 (17/16" NA & TT Nabco)

 

 

James, are those nissan part numbers?

 

 

all the info you need to know is cast into the master cylinder. There is a BM number associated with these masters. BM57 is the 1-1/16" bore master from a 90-96 300zx TT abs car. The non abs cars were BM50 and 1" bore i believe. there is also a BM44 and a BM30 I believe 15/16 and 7/8 respectively. There is also a BM38.

 

 

300zx turbo BM50/57 25.4 and 26.9mm used 1" and 1-1/16"

 

 

i saw the BM info on a site for nissan brake upgrades earlier. let me see if i can find it.

Edited July 11, 2008 by shift1313

[shift1313]

i couldnt find the same site i was looking at before but here is something else i found

 

"

 

Nissan has always used two suppliers for its brake hydraulics, Nabco and Tokico. The part number we listed is for the Nabco part, but be sure you're clear about what you want or the dealer may substitute the Tokico part. Though the parts are functionally identical, they aren't exactly the same. The 1 1/16 master cylinder only came on cars with ABS, and those cars only needed two brake lines from the master cylinder--one for the front wheels and one for the rears.

 

Non-ABS cars had three lines, one for each front wheel, and one for both rears (it was split into two at the rear of the car). ABS cars had the extra front brake line port plugged, but here's the difference. On the Nabco cylinders, a simple hex-key plug is used, so an Allen wrench can be used to remove it. After that, the 240SX brake line goes right in. The Tokico cylinder, though, uses a five-sided plug. We were only able to remove the plug after hammering an oversized TORX socket into the five-sided hole.

 

That's when we discovered the second problem. The hole is machined for a Volkswagen-style bubble-flare brake line, not the standard Nissan reverse-flare. In other words, if you get the Tokico cylinder, be prepared to fabricate some brake lines.

 

As a final bonus, the brake proportioning valve is built into the master cylinder. Since the Brembo kit was designed around a Z32 master cylinder, proportioning valve and rear brakes, using this master cylinder completes the brake system well. In practice, the front wheels now lock before the rears--a major improvement.

"

[shift1313]

ive been a little lax on getting this stuff drawn up but this morning i drew up the master with most of the detail in it. Enough for the major dimensions anyways. After I draw the booster ill dimension both drawings and post them.

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/MasterCylinder-Modelside.jpg

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/MasterCylinder-Model.jpg

[shift1313]

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/MasterCylinder-Modelsidedim.jpg

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/MasterCylinder-Modelfrontdim.jpg

 

 

The hole spacing on the master cylinder studs is roughly 60mm. which is close to what that wilwood master you mentioned before rob is at 57.2, you could make that work, but here is the interesting thing. That master is a 1" bore with a 1.1" stroke. Our master with the 15/16bore and a 1.5" stroke actually flows more. So the change in piston diameter changes the force transmitted but the stock master may be enough flow for the larger calipers assuming the pedal ratio is modified.

 

Im still waiting to hear back from wilwood, i sent their tech department a question regarding master sizing for this project.

 

Here are some numbers:

 

Wilwood 1" bore master

Piston area = 0.785 sq inches

volume = 0.8635 cubic inches or 14.15 cc's

 

Starion 15/16" bore master

Piston area = 0.6936 sq inches

volume = 1.04 cubic inches or 17cc's

 

 

I guess really the only thing to keep in mind is that the dual masters like our stock one separate the front and rear brake circuits. So when we talk about fluid requirements and flow amounts that piston area x stroke is only for the front circuit. The rear circuit is the same but it is divorced in terms of these numbers. I guess if needed instead of a proportioning valve which will decrease your line pressure to the rear would could actually use a flow diverter and split the flow from the rear to give the front more. It may be a feasible option but really i just thought of it so I havent given it too much time. The only downside is in the event of a brake failure in the front or rear, the two systems would now be connected. If thats the case i would not do a rear caliper upgrade without a mechanical parking brake setup for safety reasons.

[shift1313]

oh and i havent drawn the booster, thinking about it there is really no need to draw it, but then there was probably no need for the master drawing either.

[shift1313]

my brackets are water jetted and being delievered tomorrow. also another member sent me a disc catalog with a lot of great info that will make finding disc options much easier. i havent looked through it much but its a great source of info.

[MainstreaM]

Got a drawing of the booster bolt pattern where it enters the firewall? Send it in jpg to:

 

Mainstreamcc@trinitycable.net

 

I'll try to help.

Kane

 

 

EDIT: nevermind pics finally downloaded.

Edited July 17, 2008 by MainstreaM

[shift1313]

mainstream, i didnt draw the booster because i didnt think it would be helpful but the numbers are.

 

hole dia 0.365"

height 1.89"

width 3.145"

[shift1313]

Loaded Caliper with ebc greens

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/Brake%20Conversion/LoadedCaliper.jpg

 

Caliper Bracket

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/Brake%20Conversion/CaliperBracket.jpg

 

Bracket Installed

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/Brake%20Conversion/CaliperFront2.jpg

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/Brake%20Conversion/CaliperFront.jpg

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/Brake%20Conversion/CaliperBackNoRim.jpg

 

and the clearance

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/Brake%20Conversion/CaliperBackRim.jpg

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/Brake%20Conversion/CaliperClearFront.jpg

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/Brake%20Conversion/CaliperRim.jpg

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/Brake%20Conversion/CaliperRimClear.jpg

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/Brake%20Conversion/CaliperRimClear1.jpg

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/Brake%20Conversion/CaliperRimClear2.jpg

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/Brake%20Conversion/CaliperRimClear3.jpg

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/Brake%20Conversion/CaliperRimClear4.jpg

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/Brake%20Conversion/CaliperRimClear5.jpg

 

and here is the caliper on the bracket centered on the rotor

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/Brake%20Conversion/CaliperTop.jpg

 

and the space between the factory caliper mount and the bracket

 

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj39/shift1313/Starion/Brake%20Conversion/CaliperSpace.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

So, there is plenty or room! well not really but there is enough. The pics are slightly deceiving. There is enough room to fit my fingers between the caliper and the rim but on the front edge where the rim rolls into the "spokes" it gets close. I think there is more than enough clearance but this is the absolute largest you can go with rotors on these rims. I know i moved the caliper out .15" from the aus guys bracket and my pads line up perfectly with the edge of the rotor per wilwoods specs, so im sure the aus guys had a little more clearance than i do, but thats okay.

 

Here is the hardware parts list that you will need.

 

6 8mm x 1.25 x 20mm bolts - i recommend flange head grade 10.9 bolts. these are the small bolts that orig held on the backing plate.

 

4 10mm x 1.5 x 25mm bolts - these are the caliper to the new bracket bolts. Im running 8.8 right now but im going to upgrade to 10.9 bolts. The bolts i used had a flat and lock washer under the head. You also need a washer between the caliper and the caliper bracket to get the correct spacing,

 

4 10mm x 1.5mm washer for between caliper and caliper bracket. This can be anywhere from 1.35mm to 1.8mm thick

 

4 12mm x 1.25 x 25mm bolts, i reused the factory caliper bolts to thread into my bracket but you can replace them if you like, i saw no reason to as i know they will take the load. They may require an additional washer under the head.

 

4 12mm x 6mm washer. This will account for the space between the caliper bracket and the factory casting for the stock caliper mounts.

 

I still need brake lines but Jr(Star-Orion) is working on a set for me with all the fittings. Once he comes through with something ill post it here.

[emagdnim]

Maaan... just gotta get that five lug set-up psot on and we're golden!

[shift1313]

im going to try and find a 5 lug rotor that will work but the only problem now is i dont have a 16" stock rim to check clearance on. Clearance is tight on this setup but i would imagine you could go to 12" without clearance issues.

[88TSI_Rob]

That looks perfect Matt, great work!

 

What's the plan after you have the right brake lines? Test how things work with the stock master?

[Komeuppance]

Lookin' good!!

 

It looks like your brake pads sit a bit high above the rotor... unless in that pic it wasn't bolted down all the way...

 

-Robert

[shift1313]

Lookin' good!!

 

It looks like your brake pads sit a bit high above the rotor... unless in that pic it wasn't bolted down all the way...

 

-Robert

 

 

the edge of the pad is perfect with the edge of the rotor so you get every bit of leverage from the rotor.

 

 

Rob, thats the plan. Right now ive adjusted the clevis on the brake pedal all the way out. this will allow me to get the full travel thats available. If this is enough for the brake system but the pedal travel isnt ideal i can modify the brake clevis location to get more travel per pedal input. I think it will work just fine looking at bore vs stroke of stock vs aftermarket masters. Wilwood still hasnt responded to my email though, id really like to know what they say about fluid requirements.

[FijiPhil]

Matt im sure i have an extra front rim you could borrow to test clearance if you want, but id imagine there may be a member closer that could help you out. Just let me know if i can help.

[shift1313]

Matt im sure i have an extra front rim you could borrow to test clearance if you want, but id imagine there may be a member closer that could help you out. Just let me know if i can help.

 

thanks phil, ill let you know when i get to that point. Im sure i could probably find one with some pretty bad curb rash also for mock ups:)

[FijiPhil]

Actually i just remembered i definately have an extra front 7 inch rim. You can have it for the cost of shipping if youd like.

[shift1313]

deal:)

[MainstreaM]

Found a really close booster. My camera is broke so I couldn't get pics.

 

Measuring center to center.

Where you have 2 1/8" I have 2 3/8"

Where you have 3 1/4" I have 3 1/8"

Where you have 1 1/2" I have 3/4"

 

I only have the spacer with me at the moment so I can't get the booster diameter. But it is setup for four wheel disk brakes with dual piston calipers on the front. The bolts for the master cylinder are oriented horizontal. Hope this helps.

 

97 Montero SR 3.5 DOHC

 

Kane

[shift1313]

good deal kane, ive got some bad news though. My HD crashed last week and it looks like all my data is gone. all my docs, links and cad files! I have a few things that ive emailed off still and some things ive backed up but a lot of the brake work stuff ive done in the last month hadnt been backed up yet:(

[shift1313]

a friend of mine just picked up a 2000 crown vic police interceptor, and it happened to need front brakes. So he gave me the older rotors for mock ups(which can be turned down and used). I should be getting that rim from phil next week some time so hopefully i can start playing with the 5 lug brake upgrade. ill update when i get things done. Edited September 19, 2008 by shift1313

[lionbull]

UPDATES?

[Guest]

Hey guys, just to rehash the 3000GT VR4 caliper subject. I brought up the same question some time back when we were doing those caliper upgrades onto a 2nd gen DSM. After all said and done, the 3KGT calipers are on the DSM now and work great. But the biggest problem we found it that the 3KGT VR4 calipers are really hard to come across.

 

Sure Autozone carries them, but without a core you're looking at $112 bucks each caliper, plus the rotors, plus the custom bracket and brake lines. In the end we blew $600 bucks on this upgrade.

 

DSM guys don't do this upgrade anymore because it's hard to get the calipers. So the trend now is Evo 8 calipers. It got me thinking that maybe we should be looking at something more commonly found to upgrade the brake calipers. Like those Evo 8 Brembo one. YOu can find a full set of them on craigs or ebay for around $500 bucks.