anyone running a "boost cooler" from snow performa

[chiplee]

Well I am, and I'd like to chat with anyone else who thinks this is worth it. I'm running their "boost juice" through it for now but that crap's expensive and the point of the system is to not need race gas. Boost Juice is a 50/50 water methanol mix and supposedly allows for more timing and boost on pump gas. I have ultra conservative timing right now and I'm terrified to mess with it until I get some kind of knock sensing going on. I saw on the hawk website that they offer a "pro" upgrade to the computer I have. Guess I'll call AU.

 

here's a link to the site http://www.snowperformance.net/

[Alcyone]

you know what else is 50/50 water ethanol?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

wind shield wiper fluid.

[chiplee]

close, but not exactly. They actually tell you that in the instruction booklet. if it's safe to at least 20 below zero then it's probably about 60/40 water/methynol. It would do in a pinch but methynol isn't too hard to come up with so I'll probably just mix my own when I run out.

[button]

I've wondered but never really asked, where do you buy methynol?

 

one of my friends is running a similar setup on his turbo trans am, and he loves it. he has had nothing but good things to say about it.

[chiplee]

Methanol can be purchased at chemical supply places, and go kart shops run the stuff in their race engines so they might be able to get it for you. Also, most places that sell race gas also sell methanol. VP charges about $6.50/gallon. Do a google search in your area and call around a few places to see if you can get it in 5 Gallon buckets or if you'll have to buy 55 Gallon drums. Even at $4/Gallon though, a 55gallon drum would only be $220. The benefits from methanol are usually slightly prefered over alcohol. There is some talk of methanol having corrosive properties but when mixed 50/50 with water and not used as a primary fuel it's fine. The real savings comes from the fact that you're not using it unless you need it. It only sprays when you're on boost so a quart might last a whole tank of gas..

 

The controller on the Snow Performance system has a start psi pot and a max psi pot (dial). It senses boost and turns the pump on as soon as there is any positive PSI in the line, but it doesn't begin spray until the pressure reaches whatever your start setting is. Mine is set to start spray at 7psi. I have the max pressure dial set at 25psi so that it is spraying the full 220psi mix at that level. There is a simple linear and gradual increase between the two settings. There stage 1 kit is not tunable at all, it's either on or off so I got the stage II kit. I'm not sure why this system isn't more popular with us but when I get done on the dyno we'll see. I see no reason why a good tuner couldn't use it to get at least the same benefits as race gas if not more. Most say more.

 

Here's an idea of how it works from their site. With no Methanol, you tune to an A/F ratio of 12-12.5:1 with conservative timing.

 

Once this is complete, turn on the methanol and make no other changes other than turning on the methnaol. Your rwhp, rwtq will drop (loss of HP)

and your looking for an A/F ratio drop of .5-1.0. Anything more than 1.0 drop in A/F ratio is too much and can be corrected by using a smaller nozzle or turn the pressure down on the pump.

 

Once your desired A/F ratio drop (.5-1.0) is achieved than you can add in more timing, boost or both.

 

to me it seems like the best of both worlds. you get to run around on pump gas tuned at 12.5:1 which is safe up to say 18psi, but then when needed you can flip a switch, to turn on the methanol, and up the boost on the fly with an electronic controller to say 25, and be completely safe doing it.

 

The real power potential they talk about on the website is in added aggressivenes with timing. There's even a failsafe available that acts like a knock sensor but instead of sensing knock it senses when there's no water/meth flow.

[Shelby]

Chip this is about the umteenth time i've heard you say your runing a very conservative timeing map,, you do know not enought timeing is just as hard on your engine as too much

i think theres more free hp in your car from proper timeing curve then you may think , a lot more

i play'd with the Hawk timeing curve for a couple years and to be honest i'm much happier with the performance i get from my stock dist and the factory advance system then the Hawks , true i have blown a couple vac adv diaphrams but it's worth it , i also realize your after some thing i'm not and thats to get as much HP out of the motor as possible , the only way to find the limit is to go past it

[pure_insanity]

chip, am i correct that r/c gas is largely methanol based? might be a little easier to find at the local hobby shop.

 

and what actually is the deal with methanol? does it turn seriously cold during evaporation or resist burning or ........how does it work for us.

[chiplee]

chip, am i correct that r/c gas is largely methanol based? might be a little easier to find at the local hobby shop.

 

and what actually is the deal with methanol? does it turn seriously cold during evaporation or resist burning or ........how does it work for us.

 

no, it's nitromethane if I recall correctly. Now, would nitromethane work in a big engine? I have no idea. it's expensive as all get out though. The 20% I run in my OS .30VG is $10/quart. yeah, $40/gallon.

[heefner]

If you don't need the extra fuel I would recomend just running straight water. You get more cooling effects from straight water and it's less hassle. When you start "mixing it yourself" you run the risk of a diffrent cocktail everytime wich translates to different A/F every time you run a new batch. I had a few posts about alky injection with some usefull links. I've been running straight water with 30psi on 93 pump gas with out issues. Lastly, DI water is much cheaper than any alcohol you buy.

[chiplee]

If you don't need the extra fuel I would recomend just running straight water. You get more cooling effects from straight water and it's less hassle. When you start "mixing it yourself" you run the risk of a diffrent cocktail everytime wich translates to different A/F every time you run a new batch. I had a few posts about alky injection with some usefull links. I've been running straight water with 30psi on 93 pump gas with out issues. Lastly, DI water is much cheaper than any alcohol you buy.

 

I used to bake alot, I think I can probably measure two quarts of water and two quarts of methanol pretty acurately, but if it was only cooling effects I wanted then I might go for that. Not knockin' your experience but snow performance is trying to make a living with it, and has done a fine job of it. I think you could probably run this system up to 18psi with NO intercooler at all using a 50/50mix. An efficient intercooler plus a 50/50 mix of water and methanol doesn't just mean you can run tons of boost. It means you can run tons of timing, which unleashes the beast in more than one way. I wish there was a direct octane correlation but I think it's safe to say it's about like running 110octane all the time, without the damaging lead content, and constant $7/gallon price tag. This system just sounded like it would be highly desirable for our cars when I read about it so I bought it, but I'm not done tuning it yet so we'll see. I see no reason why it won't make me safely able to make 50 to 75 more HP on pump gas than I could without it.

[heefner]

Don't confuse adding methanol as being the same as running 110 race gas. The reason the water/alky injection allows you to run more timing and or boost is because it absorbs heat energy by vaporizing the water and reduces the opportunity for knock. As I said in the last post it takes more energy to convert water to steam than it dose to convert methanol from liquid to gas. Thus you get a greater cooling effect IE more efficient by using 100% water rather than a mix. When you run a higher octane gas you reduce the chance for knock which also allows you to run more timing and or boost but not because of the same reason.

 

So like I said earlier, unless your injectors are maxed out and you need more fuel, you really aren't serving any purpose by adding methanol into the mix.

[chiplee]

Don't confuse adding methanol as being the same as running 110 race gas. The reason the water/alky injection allows you to run more timing and or boost is because it absorbs heat energy by vaporizing the water and reduces the opportunity for knock. As I said in the last post it takes more energy to convert water to steam than it dose to convert methanol from liquid to gas. Thus you get a greater cooling effect IE more efficient by using 100% water rather than a mix. When you run a higher octane gas you reduce the chance for knock which also allows you to run more timing and or boost but not because of the same reason.

 

So like I said earlier, unless your injectors are maxed out and you need more fuel, you really aren't serving any purpose by adding methanol into the mix.

 

I believe you, but to do it I have to assume the guys at snow performance are liars since this is a quote from their website:

 

"In gasoline engines, as with any intercooler, this suppresses detonation so more power producing boost and timing can be utilized. Water, with its high latent heat of vaporization cools the intake charge and combustion. Methanol cools the charge and combustion but also acts like an extremely high octane fuel (some researchers claim as high as 120 octane) as well as adding more oxygen to combustion."

 

I have been told, on their message board, that running 50/50 water/meth mix should be about like running 110 octane fuel.

 

Do you dispute that assertion? I'm only asking, so I know how much they can be trusted.

[heefner]

I stand corrected after I went back, did a search and read through my old posts;

http://www.starquestclub.com/forums/viewto...=alky+injectoin

 

I found that it did in fact consider the methanol as an octane booster. Also, a 50/50 mix would probably be a decent ratio. I just chose to run straight water due to the lack of fail-safe system checks that would prevent a catastrophic failure if my injection system went down. I really don't need the extra fuel under high boost so I'm basically using the water as an additional inter cooler.

 

So the info you have from Snow is correct.

[chiplee]

I stand corrected after I went back, did a search and read through my old posts;

http://www.starquestclub.com/forums/viewto...=alky+injectoin

 

I found that it did in fact consider the methanol as an octane booster. Also, a 50/50 mix would probably be a decent ratio. I just chose to run straight water due to the lack of fail-safe system checks that would prevent a catastrophic failure if my injection system went down. I really don't need the extra fuel under high boost so I'm basically using the water as an additional inter cooler.

 

So the info you have from Snow is correct.

 

I hear you on the "failure of the injection system" worries. Especially if I'm correct in assuming you mean the water injection system. They have a failsafe available for just that situation that will retard timing (I believe) in the event of a blockage or water/meth mix shortage, as well as fluid level indicator lights and flow indicator lights and so on. I intend to use the system basically one pass at a time for the fun of it. I drained the first tank in about 3 miles so it's definitely not for daily use unless you run a huge tank. Since the hawk has the ability to switch between fuel and timing maps on the fly I'll just run the regular map normally and the boost juice map at the track. Again, this seems to save alot of the worry and expense of race gas, while adding most of the benefit.

[JeffS]

I run an Aquamist 1S kit on my 1G Talon and I love it.

 

The Aquamist nozzles and pump are really good. I am pretty sure the WRC cars run the same pump.

 

I run 2 nozzles...

 

1 right on the turbo outlet and 1 about 6 inches before the TB.

 

I have also experimented with different mix ratios of alcohol, and oddly enough I find the -20 washer fluid to be the most consistent and seemingly the best power.

 

FWIW

 

Jeff

[mstieg]

Chip:

 

How many extra input and control options does your Hawk have? If you have one of each, you could use an intake temp sensor input value to the Hawk and set it to automatically turn on your cooling unit when temps get above a set value. Of course the Hawk's response would be near instant, but the effect of the spray might not help much during the first run.

 

You could even put in a manual dash switch on the signal wire going to the sprayer to disable when you don't want to waste it.

 

The cooling deal sounds cool. Good luck with it.

[shift1313]

alot of the grand national guys run isopropyl alcohol like you buy at the drug store

 

water has a slighly higher heat of vaporization then methanol.

 

here is something i found online when doing some research awhile back.

""

Water injection: 0.40 lb/min of water will vaporize, cooling the air down from 150 F to 109 F.

 

Methanol:

100%: 1.08 lb/min of methanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 96 F.

50%: 0.55 lb/min of methanol/water will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 107 F

 

Ethanol:

100%: 1.26 lb/min of ethanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 100 F.

50%: 0.57 lb/min of ethanol/water will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 108 F

 

Isopropyl:

70%: 0.76 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 107 F.

91%: 1.14 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 104 F.

100: 1.50 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 102 F.

 

""

 

Alcohol is an oxygenated fuel, this means that it does not release free oxygen to promote combustion. It has about half the engergy of gasoline as well but it does have a much higher heat of vaporization which is where its benefit comes in. Because it doesnt release a free oxygen molecule it actually combusts more completely.

 

 

Running straight water only takes benefit of the cooling since the water has a higher heat of vaporization, cooling the intake charge and making it denser allows more ignition timing.

 

 

Running straight methanol gives you the octane boost(methanol is about 116(r+m/2) and ethanol is about the same, and the benefit of cooling but to a lesser extent.

 

running a 60/40 mix seems to be pretty popular.

 

also the amount you spray can be detrimental. it can cool the combustion down enough to actually slow/reverse boost production until the temp equalizes.

 

I have found a few sites that seem to offer good products but i have no experience with any of them.

 

www.usrallyteam.com

 

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/

 

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/