SDS or Hawk???

[Questsi]

I've decided to stop d1cking around with the stock injection and have ordered my Magna from Fred.  Once I recieve it, I'll send it to Chad for modification and then start piecing together what I need.  Obviously, the most important is the EMS but I can't decide which is better.  I have read info on both of their websites but there is no better info than hearing it from the horse's mouth.  I think most are running SDS, but the Hawk seems to be very popular as well.  What I want to know is which is easier to install, diagnose, tune, etc.....  

 

Thanks......Ivan

[chiplee1]

that info could only come from someone who's installed diagnosed and tuned both.

[Questsi]

Not exactly the answer I was looking for.  Maybe I asked the wrong question.  Based on the fact that I want something not too expensive, and not too difficult to install and tune, what would be a better choice?  Or let's make it easy for me and you and I can trade cars

[chiplee1]

imo, because the hawk and sds both require essentially the same wiring installation, the hawk would edge out the sds in tunability because of the vast array of available ecu files that you could just borrow/download and upload to your ecu.  This makes the day you finish the install the day you turn the key, and then you adjust your map from there.  With the sds you start from scratch with no way to share maps from user to user.  What works for a user with a 20g at 18psi will work enough to make it run for a user with a 16g at 18psi.  The MAP sensor makes it nice because it reacts well to changing boost on the fly.  Good luck, oh and I'll get back to you on the trade.

[Chad]

Chip is correct, you can't download an SDS file, but you can copy one.  I have my program on a spread sheet, I use this whenever I make adjustments, I update the spreadsheet every time.  I have about a dozzen paper copies, each with different pro's-cons, with notes and the date.  

 

The problem with programing the SDS is it's time consuing to enter the first program because you have to use the provided interface, and there are a lot of entrys.  It is however easy to tune this way, you can hold the interface in your hand while you drive.  I had to do this to get the MAP program correct, something rather difficult to do with a laptop or by having to stop driving to change entrys.  I just throttled it, made adjustments, throttled it again, made changes,  again and again till I got the mixture correct.

 

There is just about every combo of mods in use so you may find an SDS program from  someone with similar mods to base your program off of.  

 

With the SDS, the base RPM program is the most important to get setup correclty in the beginning, it is a function of your compression ratio, cam and basicly the intake/exhaust efficency of your motor.  If you can find someone with the same cam and bottom end you'll be pretty close to perfect on that program.    

 

the MAP is a measure of the turbos efficency range, it will follow the turbos compressor map and is dependant on the exhaust mods you have (headder/no cats/etc).  Same deal here, copy a program with similar mods.

 

no matter what you choose, you should be able to get hepl tuning it here.

[Questsi]

Thanks for the info guys.  From what you are telling me, I'm kinda leaning more towards the Hawk.  I already have a laptop, so I'm covered there .  Now all I need is everything else

 

---Ivan

[jinx]

For anybody looking into standalone systems, u may wanna check out the aussie starion forums, where you'd see quite a few options.

Oddly enough, the Hawk is not popular with them - I wonder whats up with that? maybe I'll post an ask em

Chiplee & Lizzs' cars seem to deliver the goods. I'll probably get a hawk to play with (on something else), since I too, am looking for a reasonably priced standalone. $7xx shipped will work.

I use to, but haven't really paid too much attention to sds because I thought the price was a bit high for what it was/did. Some of my friends run 'em and paid $12-1400 for the magnet/gm coil version.... then u see probs with magnets moving/being disloged, coils overheating etc.. The most disturbing one I've seen is my buddys' 7m actually *welding* his crank pulley to the crankshaft. 3 times! did considerable damage removing em. Never happened before the crank trigger went on.

I guess most here run distributor versions so these probs won't apply. I'd think a dizzy version sds should run no more than $500ish.

 

Lotsa folks must be going after a better value for their dollar, as I've actually been noticing an influx of standalones from oz - just browsing other forums alone - under $800 shipped. This trend maybe cathing on.

My neighbour has been doing this over 2yrs now, and to see these various systems in action is pretty neat.

 

Actually I think the stock distributor ignition is a pretty good piece and can be retained for multiport ignition timing duties, as long as its in perfect shape... and you're not after *monster* power.

The springs/weights are tweakable

vacuum advance/retard cannister is inexpensive to replace & works

$25 replacement pickup

u can trigger the cheap ford ignitor or others

the distirbutor is old but has proven a pretty rugged piece, huh

 

You can then pick up new fuel-only imports, or local used systems cheap. Main thing is to get away from the poor tbi distribution, $3xx replacement injector rape, aging / limited availability, expensive oe sensors.

 

just some ideas. I'll read the standalone threads in detail

[chiplee1]

Personally I think the aussies are ahead of us in that department.

[TopDawg_43]

Personally I think the aussies are ahead of us in that department.

 

Definatly!!!!!  They do produce the Hawk and the Haltech, that I know of.

 

 

Jinx~  If you can find a complete system for $800, feel lucky.  I thought I got lucky when I found my E6K for $1K.  But after buying all the nesscary parts, i spent well over $1,500.

 

I used my stock disturbutor with my E6K.  I removed the weights.  And locked the vacuum advance with a screw (had to drill a hole).  I should be good with that.  If and when the pick-up coil goes bad, I'll just have to replace that.

[Boosted_One]

No complaints from my end. I like my SDS. Never had any troubles with the magnets in the crank.

 

Coupled with my WB O2 it's one hell of a nice system to dial in.

 

No bling bling, all function.

[eeaston]

Add Motec to the list of Aussie EMS makers.

[Joel]

There are only a select few I would consider buying.

 

Haltech, Autronic, AEM, and Motronic. All four have good offerings that aren't questionable in my opinion. I run a haltech now and love it.

 

I wouldn't chose, for myself, a Hawk or an SDS. I don't care for either as a personal opinion.

 

Joel

[jinx]

Joel, for what reasons u dislike sds and hawk

 

even after all those problems, my buddy still likes his sds.

No doubt, it gets the job done, but I guess I got spoiled being right in the middle of "standalone alley" (my neighbourhood, heheh)... and being able to actually see what more u can get for your dollar kinda stole sds thunder - its all preference.

 

Another buddy runs a microtech on his rb26. Pretty impressive. Used the stock nissan cam trigger, ignitor, sensors and fires multi coils. Flipping screens back & forth, to guage display and maps gives u a visual of whats goin on, so you can fine tune easier. Very handy. He landed his for under $900.

[pinale69]

I just got my car running with my sds last night and I love it, I already started programming it, and its super cool, I just sat there reving my motor while making adjustments.

I personally like the sds. its cake to make adjustments with, and I scored and the one I got came with the backlit lcd. One thing it probably does have over the rest is that the guys at SDS are superchill. I wrote them an e-mail inquiring on some parts for it I needed and they responded within and hour and I had the parts in 2 days, and I sent several e-mails back and forth with them and the were a great help. the best part is that I bought my sds on ebay, so they really didn't have to help me out if they didn't want to.

[Joel]

A standalone is only as good as you can tune it. I don't prefer any Computer with a handheld controller, as there isn't ample room for a good/big display that makes the maps more visual. The Hawk also fails the test on making a nice display, even though it requires a laptop.

 

While numbers are great, its much nicer to be able to graphically adjust once you have a general idea of the peak number you need. Throw around the fact that its easier to smooth a map out graphically then numbers, add some more features and some garuntees that you'll have success with the computer itself, and its a done deal for me.

 

Haltech, Motec, Autronic, and the like all have many more successful implementations than others. AEM is catching up fast.

 

It certainly will take you longer to tune a car, start to finish, for the same power goals on an SDS vs one of the other systems. A Hawk system is half way inbetween the mark in my opinion.

 

Joel

[Questsi]

I just came across an old issue of Turbo Mag where they install a SDS on a Nissan Sentra.  I think it's the older version of the SDS, but it seems pretty straight-forward on the install.  I also just got a recent issue(can't remember if it's Turbo Mag) that tests like 15 different stand alone systems.  There are 3 or 4 that are SELF TUNING!  Obviously those are the high $$$ ones, but that would be nice to have.  I have taken a recent interest in the Haltec, but I still have plenty of time to decide on one.  

[artinist]

the TECII I have has that self tuning feature but from what i remember, it didnt work right when we tried to used it. but then again, it was relatively easy to get it started.

[TopDawg_43]

I have a Haltech in my car.  The main resaon I went with it, is about the same reasons that Joel mentioned.  I converted Chipps map from Hawk to Haltech.  It took me about an hour to smooth out the ignition curve.  But I could not imgion doing that on a little LCD screen.  Plus a Haltech is more tuneible then a SDS.  And to tune a Haltech, you also just sit there and rev the engine to adjust the fuel curve.  After installing my Haltech, I lead to doubt that there any stand-alones that are hard to install.  What's hard is installing your intake IC, piping, and fuel pump, that's where most if not all of your time is spent.  Expect to pay upwards of $20G for any complete self-tuning standalone.

 

Take it EZ

[Joel]

The self tuning features are excellent for cruise tuning, but I would never use it for WOT tuning.

 

Joel

[Boosted_One]

I have a Haltech in my car.  The main resaon I went with it, is about the same reasons that Joel mentioned.  I converted Chipps map from Hawk to Haltech.  It took me about an hour to smooth out the ignition curve.  But I could not imgion doing that on a little LCD screen.  Plus a Haltech is more tuneible then a SDS.  And to tune a Haltech, you also just sit there and rev the engine to adjust the fuel curve.  After installing my Haltech, I lead to doubt that there any stand-alones that are hard to install.  What's hard is installing your intake IC, piping, and fuel pump, that's where most if not all of your time is spent.  Expect to pay upwards of $20G for any complete self-tuning standalone.

 

Take it EZ

 

The ignition curve is easy to do on an SDS

 

You simply set the desired timing value for the desired rpm value.

 

Example:

 

1000 RPMs= 10*

1250 RPMS= 11*

1500 RPMS=12*

2000 RPMS=14*

 

 

and so on. I don't see the small display effecting the simplicity of programming it. I can't see how it could be any simplier.

 

I think use what works and what you like. To me I don't need to go real criticle with the fuel ECU to get a decent MPI swap. Either way the performance is enhanced greatly beyond the TBI.

[Joel]

The Haltech has 32 load points and, 22 rpm ranges in 10,500RPM Mode. Thats 704 Load points.

 

Adjusting 450 of those load points for fuel and then ignition means you visit over that tune, at least 900 screens (and likely more) on the SDS. I can zip into one rpm range, tune a low load bar, then a higher load bar, slap the bars in between down below the two on either side, hit a hot key to smooth the map. Now all I have it fine tune adjustments to make inbetween, as I just pretty much marked everything else on the map close to what it will be.

 

I like the compatibility as well. Haltech's will install on virtually any vehicle without having to purchase crank triggers/sensors unless you have special requirements and change the ignition system around like I did. It would have worked without issue if I kept my stock dist.

 

I've updated my E6K to a newer firmware, so just like the new E6X it does boost fuel cut off, dual mapping (you can have 2 fuel maps stored/tuned in the ECU for different gas etc, then either use laptop or flip a switch to switch between them). It will do Sequential injection, staged injection, batch fire, multipoint. It will do Waste spark, Distributor, COP if you really wanted. It does altitude correction (not needed when using a MAP sensor), TPS load mapping if you care for that (I use the MAP sensor, which is more common). It supports high or low impedence injectors. In fact, as long as you put the injectors on seperate channels, you can mix and match them.

 

You also have a Trim control input which you can use for any one of the following (and you can change it on the fly with the laptop for any reason). This allows you to change the map based on a percentage of the current map location.

 

 

Fuel (fine) Trim - Potentiometer of 10k type, fine adjustments of -12.5% to +12.5% Fuel Fuel (Coarse) Trim - Potentiometer of 10k type, fine adjustments of -50% to +50%

Ignition trim - Potentiometer of 10k -8 degrees to +7 degrees

Boost Control - When using wastegate control open, adjustment for duty cycle.

 

You also have the Spare A/D, which can be used for another Trim knob of the above, or any of the other following features:

 

General - Input any 5v source for datalogging.

Baro sensor - Altitude corretion on TPS load based cars

Exhaust Map Sensor - For datalogging

Aux RPM Limit - Basically, built in studder box (lower the RPM for launching RPM)

O2 Sensor  - Like a wideband, or standard O2, for datalogging.

 

Then you have an Aux IN function, which allows any of these features:

 

Nitrous Input (must use Aux OUT for nitrous output to solinoid)

TCC Input - Torque convert lockup control for automatic trannys

Turbo Timer - I dont use it for this, but if you don't have a use for the rest and have no turbo timer, here ya go.

Anti-Lag Switch - Builtin "bang-bang ALS" built in. You can use this at your own risk unless you have a special turbo to take the beating.

Flat shift switch - Allows you to hold the throttle open while shifting gears and not overrevving the motor. This is achieved with an on-the-fly drop in ignition advance by 15 degrees.

 

Closed loop O2 control for gas milage, as well as a Decel cut off (pretty standard shiz there). You can use an idle speed motor of almost any type (aside from out stock ISC, but not hard to rip one that will work off a chevy.

 

On the typical Batch mode Distributor car, you would have 6 outputs left when all is wired up as far as the digital and PWM (pulse width modulated) outputs. You can use these for a ton of different things like some mentioned above, and also:

 

Dual Intake valve solinoid

VTEC (or anything needing RPM engagement)

Torque converter control

Thermofan

Intercooler fan

Shift light

Aux Fuel Pump

Staging signal

...And others

 

They also include zero and full throttle maps (in case you have interesting cams).

 

I dunno, I probably sound like a sales guy. I don't think anything I buy would do anything less, even if it's not a haltech. Just thought I would post this up for a read or two. It really is down to personal preference.

 

Joel

[TopDawg_43]

I think use what works and what you like. To me I don't need to go real criticle with the fuel ECU to get a decent MPI swap. Either way the performance is enhanced greatly beyond the TBI.

 

Pretty much right.  It's hard to say one system is over all better then the other.

[Questsi]

Got my manifold from Fred.  Was filthier than a rats a$$, to say the least.  The box stunk like fuel even before I opened it.  After half a bottle of Grease Lightning and half a bottle of Simple Green, it looks pretty good.  Simple Green worked better BTW.

I'll be sending it to Chad for modification as soon as I get my $19.99 E-Bay Throttle Body.  It's a 65MM off a 4.6 Crown Victoria.  Same as a stang, right??  

[Boosted_One]

Check out the February 2004 Sport Compact Car page 68 . They have an Ultima BMW V12 running an SDS EFI.

 

They commented "how surprisingly simple" it is.

 

That's one nice thing, the SDS system is quite easy to use.

[ZPI28]

After reading all this, im still not bought on a single one. The SDS has lots of good points as does the Hawk and Haltec.

 

You guys arent making it easy for us.  ;D  and I know it wasnt easy for you either.

 

Steven