19cturbo Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 Doing troubleshooting and repair work according to the Factory Service Manual, and doing modifications to these cars are two completely different things. I know how to do both.........Do you? Funny. Not one member that I have given advice to concerning the Factory Service Manual or doing modifications to these cars has ever told me that I was wrong in providing the information to them. Try it Bill Im pretty sure i know how to do both, as I first went with the MPI modification and then later went with the 1jz modification (both of which require more work and modification than what you have done to your car so i guess i win that battle) no one here said you was wrong either, can you read properly? you took a personal stab a BOHO for what reason? because he said the SAFC can also alter the singnal the same way? Ive also never been told i was wrong in offering up information, guess that means im still correct! To the original poster, I dont see why you cant just use the SAFC to alter the MAF signal for the larger injectors at idle, BOHO, is basically doing that on the JZ motor but it does the exact same thing. You can tune the amount of fuel given with the SAFC. without all the other jazz that goes along with it. If you are on a lightly modded car, this would be the least expensive route youd need to take to have tunability with your injectors. it works off of percentages. I have one installed on my car as well, and i tuned the stock injectors with it (1jz) just fine. You can add or remove fuel easly with the SAFC, the same way you can with the MAF-translator and a GM maf.. if you are on a slightly modded car, do you need all the extra air flow? if you really think about the setup its kinda silly.. for more reasons than one.. The GM maf is 3 inches, what pipe on the turbo system of your car is 3 inches? none.. the pipes are already restricting the air flow so having a big 3 inch section in the middle doesnt give you any benefit really. it doesnt matter if your going blow through or draw through.. The only way it would be benefical to have the 3 inch GM maf is if you had a aftermarket turbo with a 3 inch inlet... other wise you are just bottle necking it anyway. correct? So if you needed a way just to tune the fuel a little at say idle and cruising, the SAFC would be the way to go, its cheaper, and just as affective.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 (edited) HeroJr, Is your setup draw through or blow through...as this is a big difference in the setup. No it isn't. I have ran both ways. The BOV set up before metered air enters the Throttle body (BLOW OFF), and metered air that goes into the Throttle body after the BOV (BLOW THROUGH).This has no bearing on Air/Fuel Ratios as a whole. The only difference is with the BOV blowing off after the intake air has been metered. Then, for a split second the car will run rich. If the metered air goes to the Throttle body AFTER the BOV...no changes. A big difference????? NO. And irregardless, this doesn't answer the posters question about running lean when using Delphi Fuel Injectors. That has already been covered by myself in suggesting that Delphis require at least 40 to 45 psi Fuel Pressure to function properly. The only way I know of to remedy this is to install a Aftermarket Adjustable RR Fuel Pressure Regulator. A SAFC or MAF-T cannot raise your Fuel Pressure going into the Throttle Body from your Fuel Pump. Bill Edited November 4, 2013 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOHO Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 (edited) Hero, If you would like any advice that you think I can help with PM me....Bill......If you believe that running draw through vs. blow through has no difference other than the bov you would be mistaken yet again. Are you going to continue to wear the editing button out and not answer my question? Why are you name calling for me trying to help the OP? Do we need to have a separate Virtual Mech section where You are the only one allowed to post? You gave him an option...it doesn't mean it was the right answer... Edited November 4, 2013 by BOHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19cturbo Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 No it isn't. I have ran both ways. The BOV set up before metered air enters the Throttle body (BLOW OFF), and metered air that goes into the Throttle body after the BOV (BLOW THROUGH).This has no bearing on Air/Fuel Ratios as a whole. The only difference is with the BOV blowing off after the intake air has been metered. Then, for a split second the car will run rich. If the metered air goes to the Throttle body AFTER the BOV...no changes. A big difference????? NO. And irregardless, this doesn't answer the posters question about running lean. That has already been covered by myself. Bill The safc can answer his issue about being lean.. i can lean my car out or make it pig rich on stock injectors with the turn of a knob.. but im not sure if i know how to properly mod.... Im like Thomas the train though..... i think i can.. i think i can... i think i can! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 Hero, If you would like any advice that you think I can help with PM me....Bill......If you believe that running draw through vs. blow through has no difference other than the bov you would be mistaken yet again. Are you going to continue to wear the editing button out and not answer my question? Why are you name calling for me trying to help the OP? Do we need to have a separate Virtual Mech section where You are the only one allowed to post? You gave him an option...it doesn't mean it was the right answer... I hit the z instead of the h. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 The safc can answer his issue about being lean.. i can lean my car out or make it pig rich on stock injectors with the turn of a knob.. But you can't make the SAFC introduce regulated fuel pressure at 40 to 45 psi into the Delphi Fuel Injectors. That is my point. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19cturbo Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 But you can't make the SAFC introduce regulated fuel pressure at 40 to 45 psi into the Delphi Fuel Injectors. That is my point. Bill i quoted you, that is also not what you said the first time... you went back and changed it. Correct you can not regulate the fuel. however i believe he can fix his lean issue with the SAFC. Can it also be fixed with the regulator by upping the pressure? yes, however he cant really tune with the regulator and both the SAFC and the regulator is gonna end up costing about the same... so if you could just fix your issue OR you could fix your issue and have the ability to tune a little for the same price, which would you do? Personally, im going with the fix and ability to tune... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_99 Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 (edited) Bill, The question was very simple.... My question is, could you not tune with the apexi and a 1g or 2g maf or even a stock maf to overcome some of these issues? Just a thought... BC_99 At no point in this thread did I mention anything about airflow numbers or anything else. So, I tried a second time to ask you a very simple direct question... Good info Bill. I got my apexi unit used for $125ish but I wasn't aware the fpr needed to be upgraded for delphis until you mentioned it earlier. However I still want to know if the apexi piggybacked into the ecu with a 1g or 2g mas could work. Regardless of which is cheaper. BC_99 and yet you guys have turned this into something that it is not...again.... with your childish bickering. And Bill that last part is directed at everyone, not just you, so don't get get all "everyone is picking on CAL308 again". Now, will you please answer my question and clean up the mess you have started in this thread so that I might be able to help a friend get his car running reliably on either setup? It is a simple yes or no answer, and acting like an adult from this point forward in this thread, that I am seeking from you. Quit the pissing match with everyone else and direct a simple answer to me. Can it be done or not? Mods please clean up this mess. AGAIN. BC_99 Everyone else please STFU and leave this post alone. Edited November 4, 2013 by BC_99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarquestRescue Posted November 5, 2013 Report Share Posted November 5, 2013 I have the GM Maf/Maft on my car and the Maft is zero'd out and I am tuning with the apexi SAFC which piggybacks into the stock ecu. It has a much finer adjustment range than the Maft alone. My question is, could you not tune with the apexi and a 1g or 2g maf or even a stock maf to overcome some of these issues? Just a thought... BC_99A safc2 $150 used, may get the job done. Some people have used them successful, but I do not recall what injectors they had. The 2g mas is best used with upsized injectors, as it's signal is 20-28% leaner than the 1g. The 2g and maft are both good to about 400 hp by the way...........The stock regulator can be modified at 0 cost, but it is not a reversibly mod. I ran 48 psi base and maintained 68 under boost with a modified stock regulator...................The problem with the stock and 1g mas is that the signal becomes erratic at higher airflow or a rapid increase in airflow.... Both the maft and 2 g mas address this problem. The op has a 19c turbo which tends to spool slowly vs the explosive spool of say a 16g, so he should be able to get away with a stock or 1g mas if he sticks to his modest power goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarquestRescue Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 A 2g mas picture Not to be confused with a base maft for a 2 gen DSM, or the maft gen2 model which incorporates the features of a good afc and can be used on many different car models. http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/2012/DSC02785.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT Posted November 10, 2013 Report Share Posted November 10, 2013 Hero, I would get in that group buy for the Trilogy FPR. This will be the cheapest and easiest way to get your base pressure up and it appears to be a simple install. The 2G MAS will support more power than your 19c can produce, so you will be good with that and a MAF-T or II. You'll need more injector though as the stock sizes only support ~260HP and your 19c should be good to ~400HP @ 22PSI (very rough interpolation). Read through StarquestRescue's build thread for TBI. It's a good read with detailed data. Good luck, KT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroJr Posted November 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 Oh, this thread is still working..? Anyway, as an update - I bought some stock injectors from 19cturbo. I haven't had a chance to clean them yet, but I hope to soon and that should get me squared away for awhile. Starquestrescue - do you know if there is a thread for modifying the stock fuel pressure regulator? I think I have two, possibly three floating around extra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarquestRescue Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 (edited) The root of the problem with the aftermarket injectors is something called dead time or latency. The after market injectors take longer to open than the mhi. That's why they do not deliver the fuel they should when pulsed by our ecu vs the drivers on a injector flow test machine. A peak and hold injector driver box will fix that. Years ago some guys experimented with replacing the stock resister box with different ohm resisters and reported improved injector performance. The details of that are long gone though.Sep 10 2011Last year i thought it was odd that i had to run more positive afc correction than the math predicted with the 850 delphi at idle and cruze.When i stepped up to a 1050 primary for my e85 project and it barely delivered more fuel at cruze and idle i thought what the heck?So i picked up a used versafuler http://www.acceleron...versafueler.htm and hit pay dirt. Went from plus 50 and still to lean on the afc, to 0 and just right. Seems the stock ecu does not like after market injectors. The fuel delivery is much more linear now, instead of progressively getting richer as the injector duty cycle increased. Edited November 12, 2013 by StarquestRescue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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