speedyquest Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 (edited) So the situation is that my 87 flatty has a bit of rot in the rear quarters, specifically on the lip of the wheel wells. Now maybe I'm mistaken but I have the impression that it would be rather difficult to fix the lips. Maybe I'm totally wrong and if thats the case id be pleasantly suprised. BUT assuming I'm correct I would think my next option is to weld in replacement sheet metal. I have two issues with this though.. 1. Where to find non rusted flatty rear quarters that don't belong to a car that can be saved? 2. How do I ensure that this will be done correctly without spending a ton of money? About number 2, my brother is a very skilled welder using several different techniques and welders, but he has never done any body work before. My thoughts are if I could get some input and tips to pass along to him he will have no issues welding in the fender, he has the skills but not the knowledge. Now I'm not asking for a step by step break down but I would greatly appreciate any of the body work guys on here to give me some info, things I need to consider before doing this, and if at all possible specifics when it comes to welder size, welding type, etc to use. So your aware I haven't simply just decided to have you guys do all the information gathering for me, I've been looking around on the web about what works well to weld in fenders or body patches. But I would rather hear thoughts from you guys, Id trust you guys and your input more. So far what I've kinda read is that MIG is best for this kinda work and that a relatively small welder should work well as to not generate alot of heat to creat warping. As always I appreciate any info you give or thoughts. Allen Edited October 11, 2011 by speedyquest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ucw458 Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 DO NOT WELD IT ALL AT ONCE. That will warp the panels very bad. Weld it with small tack welds. Then slowly grind the welds flush. Pay attention to the metal temp the whole time. If it gets too hot stop tacking for awhile to let it cool. Small areas like door keyholes take more time because after a couple tacks you have to let the metal cool down or it will warp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_99 Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) have a blow gun hooked up to an air compressor and tack weld and cool off the area with a blast of air..continue.. read through this also...chapter 4 will cover alot of your questions. http://www.26liter.us/forum/index.php/topic,1604.0.html As far as types of welders goes, it just depends on what the person doing the work is comfortable with. body panels can be tig welded in place, but just like mig welding them, you have to work slowly and move around and do alot of waiting for it to cool or cool it with compressed air and damp sponges which is Also a good trick to control warping. Also, what alot of people dont realize is, if you are butting two pieces of metal together and welding them, they need a small gap between them for the draw of the heat. For instance, if you just butt the pieces solidly together and start at one end and tack them together, by the time you get half way down the seam, the metal that hasnt been welded yet are pushing against each other because of the heat drawing the metal, and you will end up with warped areas on both sides of the weld. That is why you tack a spot and then move way away from that area and tack a different spot. You should also try to cut and weld near body lines or other places in the body that are more rigid. They will help hold the shape of the metal better than trying to weld down the middle of a big panelLook over Burtons DIY link that I posted, and save it to your favorites, it will help you alot. here is a link of some of my rust repair progress also, http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=119528 I havent updated it in awhile, but if you have any questions, feel free to PM me. BC_99 Edited October 12, 2011 by BC_99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyquest Posted October 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) Thanks a ton for the info guys. Its greatly appreciated. Im sure ill pm you at some point with questions lol Allen Edited October 12, 2011 by speedyquest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burton Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 I always use a MIG welder because they weld fairly cool. You can use TIG as well, but again, keeping heat out is super important on thin sheetmetal. I like BC's idea about having air mounted to his welder. I usually weld a few tacks, then blow with air to cool, weld a couple more tacks, blow with air, repeat... And space out your tacks like what was brought up because you don't want to concentrate heat in any one area. Depending on the size of the patch, I will go around placing tacks about every 3-4", after that cools I will go and put tacks right between each of the other tacks I did, then come back and tack in the middle of those spaces, cool, and tack in the middle of those spaces. Jump around too...You don't want to weld more on one side of the patch than the other at any given time. Eventually, you will have all the seams with tacks all the way around and you can go back and put tacks in any voids you see after grinding your welds. You might also want to grind some during all the tacking just to see what you got, but again, don't grind in one place too much or you'll heat the panel up too much. You can warp a panel grinding welds, almost as easy as you can warp it doing the welding. As far as welding patches, or getting a whole new 1/4 panel... Of course, getting a new 1/4 to either use the whole thing, or cut up for patches, will probably be the easiest to make sure all your contours are right. Also, 1/4 panels are held on by spot welds, so you can drill out the welds, take the whole panel off and spot weld a new one on without worry of warping except for the area in the B pillar where you section the panel. All that being said, of the 6 SQs I have done major rust patching on, I only used OEM panels on one job, and that was when I was replacing the entire front half of the 1/4 panels on both sides. Everything else was smaller areas that needed a little help, so I was just able to cut out some patch panels out of some scrap sheet steel I had lying around, and weld them into place. Doing this around a wheelwell can get a bit tricky, but if your brother has experience with metal fab, he may have access to a brake, and sheet metal shrinkers or stretchers. If he does he can bend a 90 degree long enough to go around the wheel well, then shrink the wheel well lip area and stretch the side area, to get a curve without many relief cuts. Once he has a good looking panel, he can weld it into place, using the welding advice above. Or, if he doesn't have access to that stuff, he could make a wheel well lip patch, and a side patch, tack each of them in and then weld them together around the wheel well edge. Of course, patching will require more bodywork after the patches are welded in and the welds dressed, but even swapping entire 1/4s will require a little body work in the B pillar are after the fact. Making patches would save you from trying to have to find good flatty 1/4's, which might be kinda difficult. I think few people part out rust free cars, and of those that do, even fewer are willing to cut off the 1/4's before it goes to scrap, so they are very hard to come by. I see rust free widebody 1/4s come up for sale every few months, but I don't know if I've ever seen flatty 1/4's come up. I do have a couple of clean flatty 1/4's sitting in my junkyard now that came with an 85.5 i got. It has rust, but not real bad, so I just plan to patch it, rather than use those 1/4's. I had planned to hang onto them in case I ever get a flatty that HAS to have the entire panels replaced, but I don't know if that will ever happen. Worst case, I figured they're only gonna get harder to get, so I wouldn't have a problem trying to find a buyer for them down the road. If you want to patch but would like to use OEM sections, you might be able to find someone parting a flatty that doesn't want to cut out and ship entire 1/4's but may be willing to just cut out patch sections you need. If you decide to go with the whole 1/4 panels and can't find any, hit me up. I might be willing to sell the ones I have, but be warned, since whole, rust free flatty 1/4's are so hard to find, I won't be letting them go cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_Venable Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) if any sections of what you need are still clean on mine (doubt it, but you'll have to come and look) you can have them for cheap (we can work that out) Edited October 12, 2011 by D_Venable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyquest Posted October 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 That was a very helpful post burton, thank you. To be honest im simply not sure which would be best to do ( a patch or full 1/4 panel) so I think what ill do is take some good pictures of the rust as it is now and post them up and get some suggestions. Maybe its not as bad as I think it is... idk I simply dont have enough experience to know. Ill post pictures as soon as I can Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) You can use glue or rivets and sealant. Edited October 19, 2011 by Indiana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burton Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) You can use glue or rivets and sealant. If the "glue" you speak of is the stuff that is made for adhesion of body panels, then yes, but don't just use some "glue and sealant" unless it's a product specifically designed for the job at hand. I would avoid using rivets permanantly as they "float" in their holes a little bit and vibration over time could cause paint or filler around the rivet to crack, let water in, and begin the rust process all over again. If I were to use rivets, it would only be a few to hold the panel in place while the adhesive dried or I welded, then I'd drill them out and fill the holes with more adhesive or weld after everything was held in place well. Personally tho, I'd prefer to use self tapping screws to hold things in place. The you can just unscrew the screw and fill the small hole rather than drill out a rivet and fill a big hole. Norton, 3M, and Duramix all make a panel adhesive and they are the only ones I'd use. The panel adhesives are VERY strong. In pulling tests, the metal around the adhesive rips before the adhesive joint gives out. That being said, I've seen other people try using various glues because they were told you could put panels on with adhesive rather than welding, but were never told the proper adhesives to use. Guess what?... Gorrilla Glue and Liquid Nails DO NOT make good panel adhesives. I know this because I have had to fix the problems after the fact. Edited October 19, 2011 by Burton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyquest Posted October 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Very good to know. I had seen on a few websites while I was researching a mention of using an adhesive but I disregarded it believing it would be kinda like half assing it. But if what you say is true about the correct products then damn, thats a possibility too lol. Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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