kozmikkroozer Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 I'm replacing my Fidanza flywheel and clutch.The clutch is off and I've got all the bolts out of the flywheel but the flywheel won't budge.I've tried a rubber hammer and a little prying but before I go at it to hard is there a technique or am I just not going at it hard enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozmikkroozer Posted September 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 With the help of a 4 foot 4x4 post and a few curse words it finally came off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozmikkroozer Posted September 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) Ok so I'm putting the new bearing into the flywheel and notice the outside edge is missing. It's just the outside corner that's damaged.Where the bearing sits is fine.Is the flywheel junk or can it be used?http://i53.tinypic.com/35iafeh.jpg Edited September 19, 2011 by kozmikkroozer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozmikkroozer Posted September 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 I also noticed that the dowel pin hole on the Fidanza flywheel I removed was no longer round.The flywheel bolts were plenty tight.What would cause this?http://i53.tinypic.com/15dnacy.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 Why would you replace a Fidanza with that iron wheel? I guess that's your business but someone has tried to knock that pilot bearing out the wrong direction and busted part of the step off but that won't matter. Use some loctite thread adhesive on it and it won't go anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 Because at some torque/hp level those stock dowel pins aren't long enough, they tilt over in the wheel and the wheel slips under the bolt heads. That wheel was made to be held by that dowel pin and the bolts just hold the face to the crank. Other Fidanza wheels use the bolt shoulders to hold the wheel and no dowel pin. This is why the heat has to be heated up to install it and that dowel pin hole may not have been aligned and someone just hammered it in anyway. See this link: http://www.b2600turbo.com/fidanza_aluminum_flywheel.htm You don't need the ARP bolts but you really need at least some thin steel washers for those bolt heads to turn against so they don't chew up the surface of what you're trying to fasten. We tore one of those stock dowel pins one, the wheel came loose and the back of the hub was all chewed up so was the face and the wheel is ruined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 If the flywheel was put on cold, you may not have had real torque on those bolts. The flywhell is very difficult to put on colt, which is why it's also hard to take off cold (as you well know). If it is that hard to take off, then you know it must have been hard to put on, so when those bolts were tightened they may have been snugging the flywheel up, instead of reaching propper bolt tension. the purpose of torquing to X amount is to reach propper bolt tension, which is dictated but the type, size, and harnness of the bolt. It may be lower than the bolt tension requirements on some aplications where peropper bolt stertch would deform/destroy the item (like gaskets or delicate structures), or on items that aren't subjected to any real force. A fleyweel is under a lot of stress ans is subjected to severe heat swings, so propper torque is quite important. Many times it's all about stretching the bolt to it's yield point in such cases. After a few heat cycles, that flwyeel may have moved on the crank (if it were put on cold). if that happened, now all the bolts are not at propper tension. How hard were they to remove? They shoudl have been pretty damn snug, if not, you know why the dowl pin is ovalved. Sounds like the Flywheel is FUBAR to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozmikkroozer Posted September 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) I'm going back to a stock flywheel because ever since the Fidanza was installed there has been a vibration in the car.Very slight, almost unnoticeable at first but getting worse over time.Now it drives me crazy,It's especially bad cruising at certain rpm's and on decel.I've replaced all the drive train mounts and checked the normal things,(exhaust rub,wheel balance,drive shaft/u joints etc).just could never find it.A couple weeks back the clutch would not disengage,depressing the clutch pedal did nothing,I was able to get it into neutral and It started fine,but it wouldn't shift into gear.I had a couple buddies give a push and was able to get it into 2nd once she was rolling and then got it home. I figured I'd start with a resurfaced balanced stock flywheel and a new clutch to see if that fixes the issue.This is the 2nd clutch since the Fidanza flywheel replacement.I haven't driven it more than 15k.I'm no mechanic but as far as I can tell all signs point to the flywheel.I'm going to take the Fidanza to the machine shop and have it checked.All the flywheel bolts were nice and tight.I had to use a 1/2 breaker bar to break them loose.Is there a write up for the proper installation of a flywheel? I thought you just bolted it on and torqued to 94 ft lbs. Edited September 19, 2011 by kozmikkroozer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 that is the propper procedure for a stocker. Fidanzas require some techniques. Sounds like what indy said about the dowel pin is right. bigger flwywheel will mask the vibration, but that doesn't mean yout have "fixed" it. masking problems is never a good thing. Does this car have balance shafts still? If so, what is the milage on the motor? I once had a brand new clutch balanced with my flywheel, it was out a ton, the machinist said he'd never seen one out so bad. I know it was smooth as glass when I installed it, so I know it wasnt' the machinist or the tool he used to measure it. It was on an old HKS flwyheel that is even lighter than the fidanza. ight flywheels don't cause vibrations, they merely don't mask them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 I posted a link of exactly what to do, I guess you didn't look at it. All you need to do is get a new dowel pin, one that is larger like I show in that link. Bolt the wheel and crank together again, heat the wheel in an oven first and you'll need some welding gloves to hangle it and move FAST. They cool quickly. If you had the motor on a stand inverted and put the hot wheel on the crank, it will spin around loose on the hub. Let it cool and you have to beat it off with a dead blow plastic hammer. You drill your new dowel pin hole a tiny bit undersize in the wheel because again, the wheel heats up and even that dowel pin hole will expand. Pull the wheel back off, you'll have to final drill the hole in the crank a little larger then test fit your dowel but don't put it in fully, you might not get it back out and it needs to go in last through the hole in the wheel after its bolted completely down. An unbalanced rotating assembly, you will feel vibrations in your shifter easier with an aluminum wheel but the wheel isn't causing the problem. You might drop the pan and pull the #3 main cap and look at the thrust bearing for more than one reason. First is that cap is sloppy loose and the two inserts do not align on their own its up to you to do this and its not mentioned ANYWHERE. Here's why, look at this link: http://www.b2600turbo.com/thrust_bearings.htmSecond, if that wheel wobbled, and I don't see signs that it did or in that many miles your thrust bearing was long gone 10k miles ago. Not aligning the bed plate on a 7 bolt DSM is what eats their thrust bearings up and people blame that engine for crank walk, this is the same principle on the main cap that has the thrust bearing in it. Who assembled that dead engine? There's the person to blame for that, not the engine design. I'll admit their oil squirters are crap and in a poor place but you can correct that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 It sounds like to me that either the wheel was never perfectly snug to the crank. Thus the vibration. Or it came loose and wedged itself on the end of the crank, in which case the bolts may still have been tight from being wedged.The Fidanzas can easily catch the edge and not fully mate the surfaces during installation. A very tight fit that requires heat on the flywheel to get it over the crank in most cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) What clutch disc are you using? If you are using that with a puck disc and street driving it, there's your problem. The metal in the friction surface is superior to that of the pressure plate. The flywheel cools down quickly, the pressure plate stays hot. Your puck disc ends up sticking easier to the friction surface and slips on the pressure plate side. If you slip it, you can heat up the pressure plaste side so much it will stick on the friction surface side then transfer the heat through those pucks and FUSE the metal in the pucks to the friction surface then you can't disengage the clutch. You'll have to use a pry bar to get the disc off. You can use a puck disc with an iron wheel and just let it get chewed up but you aren't supposed to be using a puck disc on the street. You are to dump it and go -on the track. Used discs with these for many years and beat on them and haven't worn any out yet. Be nice if a pressure plate could also use the same friction surface the flywheel uses. I wish I could post the video of how the dowel pin failed but the picture I posted before was a Spec III disc slipped only a couple times on the street. Runied the clutch disc and the pressure plate had grooves in it. When the wheel came loose and it wobbled, it chewed the back of the hub out, ruined it too. Never had a problem since putting in the new pin but that plate over the bolt heads is the most important part. Looks like on your wheel, its possible that the pin didn't completely line up with the hole and it was left in the crank and then it was moving a little, at least a couple times. That's not hard to fix and the larger dowel pin is really inexpensive. Edited September 19, 2011 by Indiana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfighterpilot Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 Ok so I'm putting the new bearing into the flywheel and notice the outside edge is missing. It's just the outside corner that's damaged.Where the bearing sits is fine.Is the flywheel junk or can it be used?http://i53.tinypic.com/35iafeh.jpg With that metal missing what do you think that it did to the balance of the rotating mass of the engine. That could very well explain you "slight" engine vibration problem. Another reason which re-enforces my feeling that I would never install a Fidanza flywheel on my Old Broad's engine. Too much BS to get it installed correctly amongst other things. For What It's Worth. KEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 If its just for a stock boost engine, the only thing you have to do is heat the wheel and put some thin washers under the bolt heads. The dowel has to be put in last and just look first how long it is and push it in so its 50/50 in the wheel and the crank and the aluminum wheel has a thicker hub so you have to account for that. Putting on the aluminum wheel wouldn't have caused any issues it people would have read the directions but most over the years think that heating it was a waste of time and that bolts will pull it on and it might and it might not. Its not the first time assumptions caused engines to blow up and a wheel that wobbles will eat up the block and ruin the entire engine, head and turbo. First one we put on we didn't heat it and that hub had a repair sleeve on it, The flywheel chewed up its hub pulling it on as the sleeve sliced off the alumium and then the edge of the sleeve was torn up but that didn't effect it sealing in the oil. We heated it up and it went on easy. Why all that wasn't included in the instructions I don't know I guess they just assume people know what they are doing. There's no mention of bolt heads or dowel pins. Some of their wheels have pins and some do not. I've put them on other engines and they were loose on the hub and had bolts that held them in place without dowels. There's problems using BOVs and there's no instructions for those but people still use them and I think they cause all sorts of problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 That broken wheel wasn't on his engine, that's a stock wheel. You can tell the bumpy surface is the cast iron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozmikkroozer Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 (edited) Ok, so the Fidanza was installed incorrectly years ago and the dowel pin hole has been getting more rounded as time went by explaining the increase in vibration.It's to much trouble to go through the proper install of the Fidanza for me at this point.It will go back in (after I take it to a machinist to make sure it's ok) when the motor needs a rebuild .The stock flywheel that I'm putting back on is out of a parts car that was hit in the front.That's where the damage came from.I took it to a machinist and had him make sure it wasn't warped and then had him resurface and balance it.The tranny should be back in today.One curious note:the SPEC stage 2 clutch was melted to the pressure plate,I had to pry it off.The flywheel side looked fine.I'm going to replace the slave and clutch master cylinders along with any hoses that are involved.I might as well just replace it all while I'm at it. Thanks for all the help guys, it's much appreciated. Edited September 21, 2011 by kozmikkroozer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozmikkroozer Posted September 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 (edited) There was no drive ability issues with the Fidanza flywheel like others have reported.No idea where you got a flywheel shaved down, resurfaced and balanced for 75 bucks.Resurface and balance was a 100.Plus a few extra bucks for the Fidanza had it been installed correctly would have been well worth it to me.There was a noticeable seat of the pants difference in performance,I liked the way the engine revved.If it wasn't for the vibration it would still be on the car.IMO the car has plenty of torque to get off the line without 28lbs of flywheel,if I wanted to granny shift at 1800 rpm's every time I would buy an Accord.This is a Sunday car for me not a daily driver.I have my Audi S4 for that.I want the Quest to be loud and obnoxious and the 15lb flywheel helped in that regard.That being said I'm sure the money could have been spent on other mods or put towards MPI but at the time a new clutch was being installed - I thought "why not".I did get the transmission back in, the only issue is that the upper bolt for the starter doesn't want to tighten up.The bottom one is fine.I was in the process of removing the bolts and taking a look when it started pouring out.Tomorrow is another day. Edited September 23, 2011 by kozmikkroozer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Only thing is I'd make sure that wheel didn't get bent in that accident that caused it to crack at the hub. Put a dial indicator on it to be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 ok if you look at the dowel pin the force was being excert'd in the wrong direction ,turning force elongates the pin hole in the direction the wheel turns,,that hole is egg shape'd towards the center of the crank , sugesting the fly wheel was not mount'd flat but at an angle forceing the dowel pin to deform the alum along the hole length as for a polit bearing i have never saw a retaining edge on the fly wheel on a stock fly wheel , it would apear some one beat it out from one side cocking it badly befor it came out and takeing some metal with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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