New Motor in, falls flat on it's face under all conditions.

[88FIJIQUEST]

Just put a new motor in my car, JE pistons, TEP cam, Non Jet Valve head, stock intake everything else stock.

 

The intake may have a ISC that isnt set properly (have't reset it, and honestly am confused by the threads on how to) the TPS may or may not be good. I took the one from my old motor because it was working fine. And also the wire from the stock o2 sensor broke right before driving it.

 

It idled well, and was timed to 10 deg BTDC, I let it warm all the way up and then shut it off and topped off fluids, no leaks.

 

When I went to drive it first thing that happens is the throttle stays stuck open, and kind of revs too high then stays at those rpms until I put my foot under the gas pedal and pull up on it then it comes back down to idle rpms. Secondly as soon as I give it any gas in 1st 2nd or any gear, it just FALLS ON IT'S FACE SO HARD. any amount of gas and it bogs so low and feels slower and less responsive than ANY car I've ever driven.

 

I have no idea what could be wrong. It's as if there is an ENOURMOUS vac/boost leak or something. Please help..

 

p.s. I can hear the turbo (stock) spool up at about 2500 rpms, and when I shift the BOV lets off the excess boost. However the car accelerates slower than a bicycle.

[88FIJIQUEST]

"idled well" but the ISC must be off because it started acting weird with the throttle staying stuck open or whatever was happening..

[BuGG]

Well if the TPS is hosed you might be up a creek cuz there are no more new ones available mitsubishi or hyundai. You would need to get a used one that tests good from someone. Try doing the reset as per the FAQ.

[88FIJIQUEST]

timing was off due to slightly higher idle revs when timing. runs better now but still needs TPS/ISC adjustment.

[techboy]

Try to fumble your way through the ISC/TPS reset. I think I found 3 different methods in the FAQ, but if you really read through them, they are pretty much the same, just some nuances. Based on your symptoms it sounds like a lot of your problems are right there. Double check that the injector clips aren't backwards, and I'm assuming you used new inj clips since you got a new motor.

[Shelby]

the sticking throddle seems to point to a missing ground cable or dirty main cable connection ,, the gas petal cable will act like a moveable ground connectin and some times weld it's self to the cable houseing ,,, underno circumstances should it stick or hang up

[Starfighterpilot]

Two problems

 

1) Sticking throttle linkage - Shelby addressed that. See this link for the intake manifold ground wire location hes talking about. http://starquest.i-x...topic.php?t=916

 

Did you rebuild the TB? If so something that you did may be binding up it's linkage.

 

2) Bad acceleration/falling on it's face - In addition to what the guys stated above - when you rebuilt the engine did you also disassemble clean and relube the distributor. Sticky dizzy weights and other internals could cause the problems you are having. See this link for how to do this http://starquest.i-x...opic.php?t=1131

 

Are you absolutely sure that you have all of the vacuum tubing hooked up correctly, especially at the waste gate solenoid valve. See the Starquest FAQ's for the diagrams.

 

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

Edited August 8, 2011 by Starfighterpilot

[Shelby]

oh and one other thing if you know some thing is wrong or out of adj,,fix it , several small problems can add up to much more then their total , like broken 02 wire,,that deff throws the ecu into open loop and the ecu is mixing fuel for -48 degree f , i doubt it's that cold out,, even if nothing else was wrong the car would run like crap from that alone

[88FIJIQUEST]

So I replaced the o2 sensor and the timing was fixed and it runs now but really doesnt have much power at all... (the TPS i am using should be good, I used it on my old motor and the car pulled better than this, even though it had a big boost/vac leak in the intake somewhere). Just noticed a few things, the star washer is missing from my main block ground, my throttle has lateral play (shaft play) the primary injector is leaky/freely swivels even tho the throttle body is tightened down, the secondary stays snug. I guess I have to rebuild the throttle body, and do I need new throttle shaft seals? or is the throttle just bad? because I have an old throttle from the prior engine as well. And could the missing star washer really cause such a bad grounding issue?

 

I have a bad feeling that the cam gear is off by half a tooth, could that add to the less power/odd stuttering (pulling at different rates but not drastically different whatsoever, just noticeable to me) during boosting conditions?

 

I understand I have a lot of uncertainties, this weekend I will be addressing the throttle, injector, and rebuild of the throttle body issues. However should I also check the timing of the cam/crank?

[TainterRacing]

Do you have a way to tell us what the motor is seeing for Vacuum at Idle?

[Metric-man]

Your injector probably just need new seals and or orings

 

Battery voltage is used in correcting injector drive time .

(Your star washer could really be making a difference if it is affecting your negative ground)

 

Coolant temperture sensor caculations adapt the ECU to control TPS and ISC operations

CTS should always be tested, also check your radiator upper hose thermostat.

 

Part of the TPS /ISC adjustment is correcting the throttle cable tension.

The TPS and ISC reset can be performed more than once and is good practice

once you've gone through the steps yourself a couple of times it becomes easier to understand.

 

 

 

Read through "FUEL" chapter 14 of the 88 FSM

Edited August 14, 2011 by Metric-man

[Indiana]

 

TEP cam,

 

 

Who knows where that cams timed at. Its a regrind that dowel pin hole means nothing except to keep the gear from turning but it used to timing the cam. You have to degree it. Should have been done with the timing cover off but you can do it in the car its just more challenging. Is that a new head? Has it been milled? Has the block been milled? All these things combine and effect cam timing.

[polarisman14]

I also have a TEP cam. I noticed when setting up timing for the car that the dowel pin being set at 12:00 puts the crank pulley at about 5 degrees ATDC. How many degrees are there per tooth? Better question, how many teeth are there?

[Metric-man]

I also have a TEP cam. I noticed when setting up timing for the car that the dowel pin being set at 12:00 puts the crank pulley at about 5 degrees ATDC. How many degrees are there per tooth? Better question, how many teeth are there?

 

It's still not going to affect the throttle plate

CTS will advance 5 degrees before warm up.

 

Finding TDC and the number one cylinder in the compression stroke with the valve train in the correct position is all you need besides having the distributor gear in sequence, then you can count gear teeth and measure the deck height and head thickness. Because all that should have been checked before it was put together in forethought.

[88FIJIQUEST]

I wasn't aware that the dowel pin in the cam means nothing.... Otherwise I would have checked everything before hand. I reset the TPS and ISC and the car runs a lot better now, but I have coolant leaking from the rear of the head so I stopped driving it until i figure out whether it's coming from the head gasket or the rear freeze plug.

 

Also I did have the head and block both milled/decked slightly. However my distributor lines up when checking the timing at TDC, the stator poles are all in line, and the cam dowel pin is just a hair before TDC.

 

There is some slight stuttering under acceleration between ~2300 rpm and 3000 rpm. I know the vac advance unit is fine because I replaced it about a year ago. I am going to figure out if teh head gasket is blown or if the freeze plug is just leaking.

[Indiana]

Your distributor can always be lined up and timed with the mark on the crank pulley because its adjustable. What is off is the cam timing. The crank and cam are timed via the chain and its not adjustable. The crank turns the chain and it turns the cam and the cam opens and closes the valves and the reason you got the new cam was because it has modified open/close degrees and lift, duration changes. You don't degree it, you didn't get what you paid for. All you'll end up with is the lift and the duration but the open/close and overlap you get screwed out of and it changes how the engine can make power. Milled surfaces changes cam timing. The "limit" the service manual gives for a combined removal of these surfaces is a mere .008". Did your machine shop mill your block for a zero deck, which is what you have to do to get that higher advertised compression ratio on Wiseco pistons but JE only gives the spec for a zero deck, not that "range" like Wiseco does? You had the head milled too. You got a reground cam and they take a stock cam then grind down the base lobe so that makes the rocker arm rest lower and you have to turn the screw out further to take up the gap and then they shift the lobe shape to one side or the other to change the open/close and overlap. They do nothing to the dowel pin hole. You can have that dowel pin go either way and help to make up for what the milled surfaces caused or ADD TO IT. This might throw your cam timing off by two or more teeth on the timing chain. The engine would run like crap. If it were a stock cam and you used that with the milled surfaces the cam timing would be retarded, its retarded because the plunger in the oil pump has to take up the slack, it takes up the slack on both sides of the gear so it pulls the chain backwards and the cam rotates backwards with it. That will result in a lower torque band and boost will come on quicker and you'll think it was from a new engine build or the pistons but at high rpms it will die off but its just a change in cam timing that could have been done with an old stock engine. It it ends up advanced, at the bottom end it will be a no power dog. Since the plunger is pushed out by oil pressure, to degree your cam in the car you have to make sure everything you are doing is with the cam only rotating clockwise so you keep the left side of the chain always tight. You can move it counterclockwise instead of going all the way around again just move back in a clockwise direction before you take any readings. It would seem that most regrind cams end up advancing timing if used on stock deck heights because when people don't degree them and use them with milled decks one tends to partially cancel out the other and some say its a waste of time. Not true. You paid for the cam, you must degree it. You mill surfaces even with a stock cam you must degree it if not what you get is what you get, sure it will run but how well is what you have to ask yourself.

 

 

The spec for the limit of deck removal combined (head and block) is .008", it takes about 4 times that to get a zero deck. Your cam timing is screwed at this point.

[88FIJIQUEST]

i'm replacing the cam with a stock cam... and i guess I will have to degree it as well when I do that. I can measure the head to see how much was milled off of it, but there really isn't any way of me knowing about the bottom end I assume.

[88FIJIQUEST]

Also, I am following the instructions on degreeing your cam on www.b2600turbo.com. Did you write these walkthroughs Indiana?

[Metric-man]

i'm replacing the cam with a stock cam... and i guess I will have to degree it as well when I do that. I can measure the head to see how much was milled off of it, but there really isn't any way of me knowing about the bottom end I assume.

All that probably needs to be done is to degree the cam.

The method used to measure the blocks deck height.

Measure from the top of the crankshaft main to the deck of the block, divide the diameter of the main by 2, add half of the diameter.

It's easier if you have a large calipers or a nice set of micrometers. at your disposal.

A straight edge or metal rule could work also.

A four corner measure of the block is important too, but needs to be done with the engine pulled to access the rear corners.

Next time I have the time I should take pictures of a cam being degreed on a 2.6, maybe more than one.

 

Also, I am following the instructions on degreeing your cam on www.b2600turbo.com. Did you write these walkthroughs Indiana?

 

I agree www.b2600turbo.com is a nice write up with pictures.

Edited August 20, 2011 by Metric-man

[88FIJIQUEST]

Will degreeing the cam make up for an over-milled head/block? Or am I just screwed when it comes to that?

[Metric-man]

No, that is what shims are for.

[88FIJIQUEST]

Should a shim go above or beneath the head gasket? and should any copper sealant be applied prior to torquing it down?

[88FIJIQUEST]

Bottom end measurement now that I think of it was 12 - 7/16" which is 12. 4375. Stock height in FSM says 12.44, so the difference is 0.0025"

 

As long as my head is 3.5375" I should be within the FSM limits, I'll get back after the head is pulled and measured..

[Indiana]

Also, I am following the instructions on degreeing your cam on www.b2600turbo.com. Did you write these walkthroughs Indiana?

Yes, everything on there but if you are going to degree it you might as well use your new cam it won't be any more difficult it will just have different specs. You have to get the degree wheel so it won't move or slip when you are turning the crank of you'll have to find TDC and start all over again. The pointer wire don't bump it either. I've tried it with a cheap dial indicator once and you'll get a different reading every time you have to buy or use a good one.

 

Find TDC, that brake caliper bolt is easy to do but when you find the opposite side by turning the crank backwards you have to stick something down in the right side of the timing cover and keep that chain tight.

[88FIJIQUEST]

What if I turn the crank backwards from the cam gear bolt? Then the tension will still remain on that tight side of the timing chain right?