Rich, dies, tried everything almost!

[DarksideDSM]

Ok so the vacuum leak i can test for but Ive been all over that thing to fix the vacuum problems it had and even then it ran good. I have a mighty vac so i can test with it. I do have factory injectors and the accordian tube ive had off alot in the past few weeks so I may have cracked it by accident so I will check it. No o2 gauge as of yet. I want a wideband so I realy know whats going on. I know that the injectors arent sticking or leaking. and how do i test the map sensor cause i havent checked it and ruled it out?

[DarksideDSM]

What does the solenoid that is right in front of the MAP sensor do? It has one nipple broken off and I think its the vent one cause it goes to the airbox. could that be confusing the map if its bad and causing my problem? Maybe its stuck closed and giving the map atmospheereic pressure and making the engine think its under load (0psi) and causing the rich condition. That could also make the computer think the mas is reading low and throwing a 3 code. Is this possible? what would happen if i gave the map sensor direct access to a vac/boost port?

 

I want to thank everyone also for the tremendous amount of help you guys have been. just this forum being here is alot of help. and the offers for replacement parts Ive gotten for obsolete/hard to find parts. thanks

[rcm]

oh, i get it, i had no idea that existed. where does one aquire that? cause the maf code could be a combo of the injector problem and a diference in o2 reading and maf reading and the computers interpritation that the maf is the one wrong. right? Im diabetic and my sugar is low a little so if this makes no sense thats why. so work with me.

 

 

 

 

 

I got a good set on ebay for like 20 bucks that covers alot of injectors.You still could have a bad maf

but if you dont know for sure what the injectors are doing and the computer its hard to say if the 02 and maf

are reading anything close to being right.

[DarksideDSM]

I got a good set on ebay for like 20 bucks that covers alot of injectors.You still could have a bad maf

but if you dont know for sure what the injectors are doing and the computer its hard to say if the 02 and maf

are reading anything close to being right.

Yea thats the problem with these cars. Only 8-9 error codes to diagnose 40 sensors, 30 of witch are irriplaceable or $100k. Exaderation a little but true.

Edited April 22, 2011 by DarksideDSM

[The Rabbit1]

test the vacuum lines at the manifold. it they won't hold vacuum then work your way down the line to find the problem.

[DarksideDSM]

test the vacuum lines at the manifold. it they won't hold vacuum then work your way down the line to find the problem.

I sure will rabbit. You know, one of my plugs had no gap. do you think that could've fried the dizzy? Either way I want to run through everything with a fine tooth comb including the dizzy, tank, and wireing. I got the car with the intent to put a 1JZ into it but i dont want to start with a POS and try to fix after the custom work. I want to get it to 100% then start the upgrading. Im also in the middle of custom headlights but when I get it done I will be posting that in the 'body mods' section.

[The Rabbit1]

I sure will rabbit. You know, one of my plugs had no gap. do you think that could've fried the dizzy? Either way I want to run through everything with a fine tooth comb including the dizzy, tank, and wireing. I got the car with the intent to put a 1JZ into it but i dont want to start with a POS and try to fix after the custom work. I want to get it to 100% then start the upgrading. Im also in the middle of custom headlights but when I get it done I will be posting that in the 'body mods' section.

it would kill a plug wire before messing with the dizzy. try plugs first, and then do the test where you pull that wire to see if it runs different to see if it's ok.

[Hoosierquest]

What does the solenoid that is right in front of the MAP sensor do? It has one nipple broken off and I think its the vent one cause it goes to the airbox. could that be confusing the map if its bad and causing my problem? Maybe its stuck closed and giving the map atmospheereic pressure and making the engine think its under load (0psi) and causing the rich condition. That could also make the computer think the mas is reading low and throwing a 3 code. Is this possible? what would happen if i gave the map sensor direct access to a vac/boost port?

 

I want to thank everyone also for the tremendous amount of help you guys have been. just this forum being here is alot of help. and the offers for replacement parts Ive gotten for obsolete/hard to find parts. thanks

 

Ive never messed with an 86 but I think I recall reading the map sensor is on the firewall behind the throttle body.

[The Rabbit1]

What does the solenoid that is right in front of the MAP sensor do? It has one nipple broken off and I think its the vent one cause it goes to the airbox. could that be confusing the map if its bad and causing my problem? Maybe its stuck closed and giving the map atmospheereic pressure and making the engine think its under load (0psi) and causing the rich condition. That could also make the computer think the mas is reading low and throwing a 3 code. Is this possible? what would happen if i gave the map sensor direct access to a vac/boost port?

 

I want to thank everyone also for the tremendous amount of help you guys have been. just this forum being here is alot of help. and the offers for replacement parts Ive gotten for obsolete/hard to find parts. thanks

read this, may help..

My link

[DarksideDSM]

read this, may help..

My link

Thanks rabbit, That did help get my mind going and the ECU pinouts will definately help track it down.

[DarksideDSM]

Well i havent tested at the ECU yet but ran full tests on the CTS and it works. When I have it unplugged It wont start at all. and when I plug it in the ISC will move a bit and it will start and have the same problem, so since the ICS moves as soon as I plug/unplug it then I assume the ECU is getting info from it. I still want to check the wires from the MAS to the ECU just to make sure its not the wire. So the next step for me is to get ahold of a 1g mas and see if that fixes it. I will cruise the for sale section here and post a wanted add if nothing turns up there or at local junk yards.

thank you guys for all the help, especialy you few who have been all over my thread and spending hours a day to research for me.You know who you are.

[Cole]

i had this problem when i took it to a shop to fill the diff and when i got it back, he said it had all sorts of problems. Before i took it to get the fluid filled it was running fine. once i got it back, i couldn't even go past 20 mph! It also died three times trying to pull into the garage and had the roughest idle. once i got home however, i looked under the hood and saw that my oxygen sensor wasn't plugged at all! your oxygen snesor jsut might be bad or not plugged in. check those two things.

[DarksideDSM]

i had this problem when i took it to a shop to fill the diff and when i got it back, he said it had all sorts of problems. Before i took it to get the fluid filled it was running fine. once i got it back, i couldn't even go past 20 mph! It also died three times trying to pull into the garage and had the roughest idle. once i got home however, i looked under the hood and saw that my oxygen sensor wasn't plugged at all! your oxygen snesor jsut might be bad or not plugged in. check those two things.

hey cole, It does it when its cold too and it shouldnt use the o2 sensor at all when its cold should it? It probablyu is bad cause the pluggs were fouled so it probably is too. Id say thats a problem but not the main problem. I will check to make sure though.

[Caliber308]

So I will go into more detail about this. First off, the car is an '86 esi-r widebody turbo intercooled. The computer #is MD101177. I have been all over this forum for days reading every thread i can to solve this problem. Problem, the other day I was out in it and noticed some hesitation above 5psi and at WOT in any state of boost or vacuume. So i had been getting the vacuum lines straightened out for a few days prior cause they were thrown on ports randomly. I got everything to its original port and it ran great. The FPR was unhooked originally. so what i did was hooked it to the port under it about 1.5". I thought perhaps It was running lean so i put the port on the IC piping to get more pressure. So, the day it started running bad I noticed the misfires were stronger than normal and decided to do a TPS/ISC reset. After the reset the car was running like a subaru. Then I pulled a plug to see what they were and what condition. fouled beyond belief. One had the tip and the ground protrusion touching aka no gap. so I went and got BPR8ES's and put them in and it also has 8mm ngk wires BTW. Then It ran the same. I put the new injector clips I had on and did a sweep test on the tps, it was perfect. I tested the coil and desided it was bad and got an msd blaster 2. didnt help, I replaced the CTS with no avail. by now its running super rich and backfireing throught the intake(after the backfire it will run right for half a second). i have no AF meter but i can tell cause the smell and the fact that the wall behind the car is now black.It runs so rough that i think it will jump out of the engine bay. so I decided to check the injectors for leaks. I cut the return off and jumpered the pump. not one drop from either injector. Two days prior i also changed the fuel filter up front. I checked the back and I was told it had a walboro 255 but it looks stock and has no filter between the pump and tank and also retains the diaphram on the outlet side of the pump. I have not opened the tank to check it and also havew not ran the codes but plan to do it tonite. I am suspecting a bad FPR, or restriction in return, or destributer(i havent opened it to check), or mas. also, when its running If i put my foot on the throttle it dies instantly and if i pumop the pettal fast it will raise in RPM then backfire and die. It idles at 3-400 RPM now. Tell me what you think and ask as many questions as you need to get an idea. I hope i havent missed anything. Thanks

 

What is your Fuel Pressure reading at idle and at full boost?? P.S. Wideband and Fuel Pressure Gauges will tell you VOLUMES about when your running rich.

 

Bill

Edited April 26, 2011 by Caliber308

[Cole]

an oxygen sensor for our cars is a must since it has one stock. the computer needs that input to detect if the engine is given too much fuel or not enough fuel so it can have the perfect air/fuel mixture close to 14.7:1 ratio. another problem that totally made my car run awesome is once i changed the oxygen sensor, i did the timing too. if your under 3400 ft in elevation, set your timing to 10 degrees btdc. if above that, set to 15. (mine was set at 5 degrees atdc ) look up this link and go to page 156 to see how to do it.

 

http://www.starquestgarage.com/manuals/service/conquest/1988/88_conquest_service_manual_-_group_26_-_electrical.pdf

Edited April 26, 2011 by Cole

[Cole]

(mine was set at 5 degrees atdc )

 

as a result of this, my turbo was bright red in the morning driving 15 mi to work and i was just at cruising speed!

[DarksideDSM]

cole, I did the timing before this all happened and i did it for my elivation by pulling the plug on the map sensor then setting the timing to 10* btdc just like it says on the bottom of my hood. and the problem with what your saying about the 02 sensor doesnt help me cause it doesnt use the readings from it when cold. It wont run for more than 3-5 seconds at a time.

 

Bill, i do not have those two meters yet. I plan to get them later after i fix it. It only runs for 3-5 seconds at a time so those measurements will not help me. but when it is started i know its rich. And the fpr is working properly according to the tests and the condition of it. no blockages, diaphram is intact,ect.

 

Im buying a new 02 and maft+3" gm maf today. they probably wont be in till late this week at least. after istall of them both i will post an update. I am 99.9% sure this is my problem.

Edited April 26, 2011 by DarksideDSM

[Starfighterpilot]

Before you lady went to hell and back did you per chance clean and reoil a K&N air filter on your car.

 

If you put too much oil on the air filter fabric the oil has a tendency to go through the MAS and get the air flow sensor goofed up cuz of the oil residue that plated out on it.

 

I seem to remember that someone had a similiar problem about a year or so ago and it turned out to be the air fliter oil causing the MAS to read incorectly or not at all.

 

I think someone provided a name of a cleaner specificaly made to clean a MAS that you can spray into the MAS sensor to clean the oil out of it.

 

This is probably off the wall but I thought that I'd throw it out there.

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

[Caliber308]

Ken is a smart guy and knows a lot about these cars..Heed his advice. As for a "hacked" stock MAS..It would allow more, not less air into the system.If your talking about the cardboard silencer...That is only a piece to quiet the Turbo.And if someone removed the "honeycomb" from the stock MAS...yes, it will move more air through the system at a cost. It will change every setting on all the Throttle body sensors. So you would be running leaner not richer. The same thing goes for the 1st gen MAS. Hack the honeycomb prior to the Venturi tube on the "unmetered" side of the MAS...more air flow = A Leaner condition.If that doesn't help, Try looking at the Injector clips or the Injectors themselves.

 

Bill

Edited April 27, 2011 by Caliber308

[DarksideDSM]

Yes bill, I always listen to ken on all matters. I have found him to be right more often then not. I have looked at the injectors and just replaced the clips.

 

Ken, It does have a K&N but I have not oiled it at all between getting the car and this escapade. I have heard of that happening. And , after the thing was diagnosed to be my problem, I took it out and apart down to every little peice. The metering screens were clear and the board didnt seem to have any obvious part failures. all the solder joints were clean and non coroded and the wires were all intact and in good condition. The only thing that i noticed to be not right was the honeycomb in one corner was bent but not in a way that would cause any significant problems.

 

I also, previous to this death, had noticed under hard ecceleration, that the car would sometimes run good/stoich and other times it would be rich enough to have unburnt black fuel/smoke come out of the tail. this fluctuation in good and bad back and forth has led me to believe that it was a sensor going bad. Then when the ECU threw a MAS trouble code i knew. It has to be that, I dont see how anything else could do it. and taking it apart has led me to believe that a single part on the chip board inside the mas has gone bad. and its too much trouble to track down wich one and find a new part. Espescialy if its anything smart like an EEPROM or main chip.just wait till the new setup is on there, I bet it will be like a new car.

[Starfighterpilot]

 

And , after the thing was diagnosed to be my problem, I took it out and apart down to every little peice. The metering screens were clear and the board didnt seem to have any obvious part failures. all the solder joints were clean and non coroded and the wires were all intact and in good condition. The only thing that i noticed to be not right was the honeycomb in one corner was bent but not in a way that would cause any significant problems.

 

 

It sounds like the MAS internals look good visually. However, take apart the electrical connector on top of the air can lid and see if any of the female & male metal terminals are corroded. They live in a very harsh environment and they could be corroded or the plastic connector itself could be damaged. Make sure that you make a diagram of what colored wire goes in it's correct recepticle (location) as you do this.

 

C'mon. You guys are making me blush!!!

 

For What It's worth.

 

KEN

[DarksideDSM]

Awwww Ken is blushing! I didnt take that connector apart because it looked Impossible without breaking the plastic. but, I did look down into it and it seemed fine. However, seeming fine and being fine, I know, are two different matters. O well, the replacement parts are ordered so I decided to not mess with it anymore. It sits on a shelf awaiting the day I decide to throw it away. It will probably be there for a few months just in case i need it or someone wants it for any reason. Im kinda a horder of car parts.

[averse]

When you do fix the problem please be sure to update the thread here, for when others use the search function to look for similar symptoms on their car.

[Indiana]

You've got to send those injectors off to be cleaned. Its not expensive. www.witchhunter.com Now for the rest, those codes are useless and anytime the engine dies it will throw that retarded "MAF" code. Nothing wrong with your MAF. The car can't idle if the throttle plate isn't opening and that all relates back to the TPS and ISC adjustment and for an 86 its not the same as 87-89. Do you have a factory service manual or do you need that setup procedure? You will have to get those spark plugs out of there they will not work for a car running rich and they are one step way too cold anyway and 8s in any car make for a bad idle. Go to a NAPA and order NGK 7031, don't say what they are for just order 4 of those plugs. That solenoid valve in front of the MAP sensor is so that there is a reference to the throttlebody all the time then every few minutes the ECU switches that valve to sample the air pressure from inside the air filter can to get an atmospheric reading not related to engine boost or vacuum or the breeze while driving down the road. If that's broke and its broken on the side the leads to the throttlebody no it won't idle because it thinks the turbo is spinning fast enough for there to be no vacuum and if you had a gauge there it would read zero which is actually boost since it takes "boost" to overcome the negative "low" pressure or what some refer to as "vacuum" where there is actually only a vacuum in outer space or in a chamber at NASA and it should be called low pressure or negative pressure. While idling there is "low" pressure on that reference hose going to the MAP sensor. You would be so rich that even at idle with those plugs and that hose off it would foul those quickly and it would die and throw that MAF "code". You will get a MAF code any time the engine dies and if you didn't take the battery cable off to remove it you might see that for awhile and its misleading like the rest of the useless "codes". The 83-86 fuel systems fire back and forth all the time two decent sized injectors which is different from the 87-89 fuel system that fires a small one for start up/idle/non boost lower speed driving then it adds in a second that is twice as large as the primary injector. The 87-89 primarys if dirty can dispense fuel so poorly and the wrong amount to foul out plugs and the 83-86 if you have just ONE of those injectors dirty not to mention both of them (which is usually the case), no way you can drive that car or expect it to idle or start. If you can cancel that order for that other MAF/MAS I'd do it. Sorry I didn't post before and nobody else did either. You said two things that people should have picked up on, that the car is an 86 and that a nipple was broken off a solenoid valve in front of the MAP and no one did so you've wasted a week. An 86 had BUR6EA-11 plugs but you can use the BUR7EA-11 which is NGK#7031. Its an anti-fouling type plug refered to as "surface discharge" because of the tip design where they just roll over the edge so there's less of a gap for the fuel to get in to and turn to carbon and since its closer that makes it burn off too when it does and that's otherwise the same thing as what you have now but one step hotter (from the 8) but that's a big difference. The sensors- the only ones that matter are the ones in the MAF, MAP, the TPS and the CTS. Those codes look at one related to another and if something is way out of range, like being way too rich then it might throw a code. If the TPS isn't closing the tip switch in the end of it at idle and its out of adjustment and is sending back say 1volt to the ECU you'll get CTS and TPS codes but neither is bad, just out of adjustment. The CTS you can test with a volt meter easy enough same for the TPS but like you said, it has to at least run first. Let me know if you need the service manual pages to set the idle screw and TPS but it may be in the FAQ. You can't use the 87-89 setup procedure on an 86. You need to check compression and remove the valve covers and make sure all the lifters are pumped up and hard then check the clearance for the jet valves again if you need that and can't find it just ask. Edited April 29, 2011 by Indiana

[DarksideDSM]

When you do fix the problem please be sure to update the thread here, for when others use the search function to look for similar symptoms on their car.

averse, I definitely will

 

Indiana, I did the tps/isc reset/adjust acording to the pre'87 procedure in the faq then again by the fsm wich i have a copy online i reference. I also did a full sweep test on the tps.The plugs I thought were 7's stock wich is why i did 8's. I will be changing those out again to the 7031's. That was my plan from the begining but fouled plugs i thought was my problem at first and the 8's were the only ones i could get ahold of fast.as far as the atmos. solenoid. I will switch the one from the egr system on the TB and see what happens. I have probably till wed next week to get it fixed before my parts ship cause they are backordered. Indy, I hope your right.thanks