FlattopMike Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 The rich get richer, the poor get poorer and the middle class is disappearing before our eyes.It's not politicians, although they have the power to stop it. It's corporatism and corporate greed.Just check out how much the fortune 500 companies made over the last 5 years while we were losing our butts.Big corporations run this country and the supreme court gave it's blessing when they voted that corporations have the rights of a citizen.Most of the middle class jobs have been sent overseas so the top couple percent of this country could make a couple dollars more.All we need to do is to turn the clock back 40 years.Reinstate all of the regulations that existed in 1970 including the tax rates.Get rid of all of the corporate welfare/incentives that have been added.Reinstate all of the tariffs and import taxes from that time. Unbridled capitalism is a disaster. It can only work if it is void of greed and that isn't going to happen.Capitalism must be regulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Yeah, but you can't regulate it because we the sheeple will get upset because THE GUBMENT IS REGULATING US! Teabaggers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pure_insanity Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 you are so far off base , i'm not sure where to start, you have nothing i want or need , i have work'd my entire life for what i have , how ever little it is,, my complain is not with you it's with the gov and huge cooperation that have little if any of our countrys best intrests at heart,, tradeing our livelyhoods for a few votes on the UN assembly ,that i don't care for. it's signing deals to put 300 million workers to work in korea, vietnam, chinnaand else where while displaceing millions of workers here in this country ,thats the bad guy in all this not me im with shelby on this. just today i saw a computer company commercial that if you buy a laptop, they will give one to some kid in africa. thats all fina and dandy, but whatabout our own kids right here in the usa. if the money is there to give onbe to a kid in africa from my purchase, i think i want little billy down the street to get one before takimbe gets one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoolinturbo Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 right on shelby! i get mad at stuff like this all the time. like a few years ago "fuel tax" showed up on my electric bill...i asked what it was and they said they are charging me...the gas it takes the trucks to help provide the power...what the heck? your service is electricity, why am i fueling your trucks additionally?! and when i pay any bill, electric, water, cable, truck anything...why is there a $10 processing fee?! its a wireless transfer!! i paid in $4000 in taxes, got $750 back..thanx america. u tax everything i eat, buy or look at and u take more and more and more. ive seriously thought about leaving america when i retire...no jokes there. and i still am Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoolinturbo Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 im with shelby on this. just today i saw a computer company commercial that if you buy a laptop, they will give one to some kid in africa. thats all fina and dandy, but whatabout our own kids right here in the usa. if the money is there to give onbe to a kid in africa from my purchase, i think i want little billy down the street to get one before takimbe gets one. haha i saw that!!! that is the dumbest thing ever. i think we need to step into a isolation stage, leave the other countries to whatever it is they do, and we worry about us. granted they have disasters, but we need to take care of us, before we can help anyone else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Klube lives in another country now. He was tired of the crap here and dipped out. Took his minty 89 quest with him too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edde Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 The rich get richer, the poor get poorer and the middle class is disappearing before our eyes.It's not politicians, although they have the power to stop it. It's corporatism and corporate greed.Just check out how much the fortune 500 companies made over the last 5 years while we were losing our butts.Big corporations run this country and the supreme court gave it's blessing when they voted that corporations have the rights of a citizen.Most of the middle class jobs have been sent overseas so the top couple percent of this country could make a couple dollars more.All we need to do is to turn the clock back 40 years.Reinstate all of the regulations that existed in 1970 including the tax rates.Get rid of all of the corporate welfare/incentives that have been added.Reinstate all of the tariffs and import taxes from that time. Unbridled capitalism is a disaster. It can only work if it is void of greed and that isn't going to happen.Capitalism must be regulated. In a nutshell this is it. But it's not gonna happen. The one's who might still have everyone's best interests at heart have lost. They've lost the message. And they've lost the media. That's the game. And to stay in the money, they've long ago joined the opposition. I eluded to this in the 'entitlements' thread. ALL messaging to the public is done using conservative's framing of the issues that confront us, including by the left. Take that thread: The most common tactic is to lump Social Security in with Medicare and Medicaid as "entitlements" that will break the budget. Of course, every budget expert knows that the vast majority of the projected increase in spending comes from Medicare and Medicaid due to exploding health care costs, not the modest impact that aging has on projected Social Security benefits. For anti-government conservatives, Social Security is the worst nightmare imaginable: a government program that really works. Its administrative costs are less than one-tenth as high as they are for financial industry. There is minimal fraud and the program does exactly what it was supposed to do: provide a core retirement income and protect workers and their families against disability and early death. Get it? Medicare and Medicaid are in trouble. Due to what? Exploding health care costs. Every halfway responsible President in recent history has tried to grasp this bull by the horns and face it, one finally does (winning an election on it) (ends up using a old Republican plan) and then promptly loses the messaging (see Obamacare and repeal). The conservative model of framing the debates has managed among other things to make all Government useless and impotent (just don't diss the best military in the world), all taxes bad (but why aren't these damned roads fixed?), tax relief good (must be a bad guy somewhere since you need relief), and all poor people not within eyesight lazy (I know my neighbors are good, hardworking folks so I can help them). Sorry to veer off topic a bit but it's all part of the larger picture. Taxes have never ever been lower, especially on the rich and Corporations - yet we cannot even agree that this is true. Or if we can agree, that it's actually a problem instead of a benefit. How about a real life example of mis-placed priorities? On the day when that bridge in Minneapolis collapsed they were scheduled to do a groundbreaking on a $292,000,000 publicly funded stadium. What? What the people who think the rich deserve to keep the money fail to understand is that they all got that way by Government funding in some fashion and they use Gov't services more than the rest of us. So called "free" markets are expressly carved out by Gov't for their benefit and would not exist without it. We all pay for it.Dark Cheney's heart pump was developed using taxpayer money. Many huge Corps pay no taxes at all in the US yet I could line up 12 or 15 elected conservatives who have stated that the single first thing they would do to tax code is lower the Corporate tax rate. The very language of day to day life is based on falsehoods. The question of how long or far it can go? I think this is answered by Globalism. There's only so much left at the bottom for those at the top to take in this country. BUT the rest of the planet provides many resources from which to pilage and plunder. This should keep them going for a good while longer - and that's why they like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted January 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Mike Eddie thanks thats exactly the responce i have been loking for , now what do we do about it http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmwii Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 people vote with their dollars. the common man buys the cheapest stuff he can buy. companies want that dollar. companies try to save money to make product cheaper. unions refuse to stop wage and benefit increases. company moves overseas to be price competitive. common man complains. unions do not learn lesson. rinse and repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edde Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 people vote with their dollars. the common man buys the cheapest stuff he can buy. companies want that dollar. companies try to save money to make product cheaper. unions refuse to stop wage and benefit increases. company moves overseas to be price competitive. common man complains. unions do not learn lesson. rinse and repeat. Wrong on several levels. Only a struggling man buys the cheapest stuff he can find. And secondly, he buys what is available. If a cheaper version does not exist, he does not buy it. Sneakers have never gone down in price despite the moves to China and huge savings to the producer. Unions have been so decimated as to become nearly ineffective. Concessions after concession in many areas for going on 30 years until union participation is down from something on the order of 25 or 35 percent of the workforce to something like 7. You blame the workforce. How is this possible when CEO average compensations compared to workers have increased 10 or more fold? Plus, how many offshore tax subsidy companies do all these huge Corps have? It's hundreds PER company. Their share of the total bill to operate our country is down hugely. Respectfully, these are nothing more than righty talking points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MainstreaM Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Shelby, I'm afraid the answer is all the way to the bottom. Any attempt by the masses to reform government by takeover will be squashed. Put hundreds of thousands of militia men intent on government reform in Washington and see how quick we pull troops from the global wars just to send them to DC to turn against their fellow countrymen. Corporate greed is so entangled in every aspect of government that they will not allow any other type of reform to happen except forceful takeover by the people, if that is even possible. "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson I agree with Ron Paul's views on how government should be reduced to what is constitutionally allowable. Even if elected president, he would have to have majorities in the house and senate with the same views and there are people/corporations that would never let that happen. These people/corps will ensure this by not only buying senators and representatives but by also playing into the hands of those living in and relying on the "Era of Entitlement" by ensuring these programs and payouts continue. In my opinion the only persons entitled to anything in this country are the ones who it was originally taken from, Native Americans. Kane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotStock88 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 supposedly the world is going to end in 2012 anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmwii Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Wrong on several levels. Only a struggling man buys the cheapest stuff he can find. And secondly, he buys what is available. If a cheaper version does not exist, he does not buy it. Sneakers have never gone down in price despite the moves to China and huge savings to the producer. Unions have been so decimated as to become nearly ineffective. Concessions after concession in many areas for going on 30 years until union participation is down from something on the order of 25 or 35 percent of the workforce to something like 7. You blame the workforce. How is this possible when CEO average compensations compared to workers have increased 10 or more fold? Plus, how many offshore tax subsidy companies do all these huge Corps have? It's hundreds PER company. Their share of the total bill to operate our country is down hugely. Respectfully, these are nothing more than righty talking points.funny, i'm a libertarian, but i understand that it's helpful lefty debate tactic to try to discredit differing views by repeating the mantra "talking points, talking points," as if the label you apply to the information affects its validity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted January 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 well the poor people do have one weapon at their disposal,, a VOTE if we were to go from a 23 % or so voteing population to an 80% voteing nation , gov will have to stop and listen Obama's adminstration is the first to realy see this starting to happen , and it'l grow till some one pays attention , i'm not fool enought to beleave this will happen over night or durring my life time but it will come to pass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edde Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 (edited) funny, i'm a libertarian, but i understand that it's helpful lefty debate tactic to try to discredit differing views by repeating the mantra "talking points, talking points," as if the label you apply to the information affects its validity. As if nothing and I didn't repeat it. I used it to describe what it looks like to me because I'm familiar with it, and generally from hard republicans. What came before that was my argument meant to challenge your view. Don't be pi ssed. My original point is demonstrated though: We can't fix anything until we have at least some agreement in understanding somewhere. I mean real cause and effect. Shelby, I've been thinking about your question for some time now... Edited January 26, 2011 by Edde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edde Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 supposedly the world is going to end in 2012 anyway http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif The Mayan calender ends Dec 12, 2012 but they may have just split and forgot to finish it. http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted January 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Eddie i could tell by your answer it wasn't something that just came off the top of your head at a moments notice but you know now is the first time in history that nearly 300 million americas have the means at their finger tips to tell gov what they think of how they are doing their job , and gov has to listen , rioting and violance is never the answer , as history has shown the pin or in this case the key board is mightyer then the gun in all of history gov has never had to listen to the poor man/woman ,that is about to change , not saying the poor can do any better of a job but just saying enought is enought is more then they have ever listen'd to befor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89PalermoSHP Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 sorry to disagree Shelby, but violence is the only answer. not random violence like what happened in arizona but an all out revolt. does the American Revolutionary War ring a bell? no great change will happen without bloodshed. and when it does change, who's to say it will be for the better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted January 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 sorry to disagree Shelby, but violence is the only answer. not random violence like what happened in arizona but an all out revolt. does the American Revolutionary War ring a bell? no great change will happen without bloodshed. and when it does change, who's to say it will be for the better? oh yea i remember that one,, wasn't it like 1 in a thousand could read and write , those days are gone , all it would take to put us back on the road is to bring production back to america not imports , production means jobs , haveing 20 car companys or any manufactour that use robots and not people mean almost nothing to the non working work force , heck if new cars were $2k each you still could not afford one with no job and your wrong about violance the only way,,elect'd officals fear the peoples vote more then the rocks they may throw and to nite i did not hear a sngle word about Iraq paying us for protecting their coutry as promise'd , that would go a long way towards lowering our national debt any arm'd upriseing would only take away what rights we have left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted January 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 and Obama's we create'd 120k new jobs,, bull , createing government jobs only add'd to the problem,, they provide a service not a product , for each new job it takes 3-4 civilian workers to pay for their wages,,hows that help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmwii Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 to nite i did not hear a sngle word about Iraq paying us for protecting their coutry as promise'd , that would go a long way towards lowering our national debt this is the sort of thing that gets passed around as truth, and it is false. the total we have spent on iraq and afghanistan since 2001 would merely cancel out the budget deficit for 2010. just one year of our budget deficit, to say nothing of the trade deficits that we add to annually, or every other year that we run in the red. cost of war:http://costofwar.com/en/ 2010:http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/taxes/federal-budget-deficit-below-expectations/19675849/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlattopMike Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 well the poor people do have one weapon at their disposal,, a VOTE if we were to go from a 23 % or so voteing population to an 80% voteing nation , gov will have to stop and listen Obama's adminstration is the first to realy see this starting to happen , and it'l grow till some one pays attention , i'm not fool enought to beleave this will happen over night or durring my life time but it will come to pass You underestimate the power and intelligence of the corporate machine.They control what the majority of people see and hear and those people believe it to be the truth. (even more now with NBC and Comcast merging)The most frustrating thing to me is watching news report on TV and and having someone quote one of the talking points like "Obama care adding to the deficit".The reporter never questions the validity of the statement even though it is completely false. The CBO has determined that it will decrease the deficit by billions. I believe that if everyone knew the facts, we could start to agree. The problem is that some people don't want to know anything. They feel safer in an intellectual void that they have created for themselves. Some people will only believe the facts that fit their pre-established notion of what is going on.I'd say that half of the people I know fit into one of these two categories. When the tea party movement first started, I thought it was great. We now had a grass roots vehicle in which us average Joes could climb aboard and make some changes. Unfortunately, it turned out to be a corporate financed artificial turf movement that banded together all of the religious zealots, the anti-government believers, the racists and the fringe right. The problem with banding together a group of open minded people, that actually base their opinions on the facts and not by what someone tells us to think, is that we rarely completely agree with each other. Free thinking intelligent people don't think and act in lock step and that is what is required in order to have a tea party type movement. It is awfully difficult to herd cats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummer030201 Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 illinois income tax went up 63% thats all im gunna say im waiting to see a lot of chicago businesses leave and saddle up right on the boarders just for the lower tax rates. i dont see how they expect us to continue living the way we have been with such an increase in tax but no increase in pay rate...which would also be hard for theh companies to do since they will also be victums of the higher tax rate. Illinois is so F'd up its not even funny...what state should i move to guys?.... hows Michigan Dave? but i dont feel like talkin bout any more politics right now because i have a class presentation to work on. yea.... ~Muzzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlattopMike Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 illinois income tax went up 63% 63% of what?How does it compare to other states? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmwii Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 (edited) The most frustrating thing to me is watching news report on TV and and having someone quote one of the talking points like "Obama care adding to the deficit".The reporter never questions the validity of the statement even though it is completely false. The CBO has determined that it will decrease the deficit by billions.http://reason.com/archives/2010/11/04/does-obamacare-reduce-health-chere is data from the cbo. at best, the new health care legislation has no effect on spending in the long term, and between now and 2020 it adds 3.8 trillion dollars of spending. you can call it what you will, but the validity of the data is not dependent on the label you apply to it. http://reason.com/assets/mc/jtaylor/VeroCosts.jpg Edited January 26, 2011 by lmwii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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