driveabilty issues 89 quest

[mr.andaya]

hi guys,

 

recently my 86 sq was wrecked and i decided to get my auto 89 fiji back on the road.

the car has been sitting for about 2-3 years motor had a spun bearing(from massively dented oil pan) and the person i bought it from said it had a bad fuel pump.

 

so i replaced the motor with the 86's and used the original 89 intake manifold. my 86 didn't have any problems drivibilty wise, but i am having a few with the motor in the 89. the original owner drained the tank, it sat and now was rusty inside. i replaced it with another tank and used fuel pump. the tank was from another 89 auto that someone took the running motor out to put in a manual car(i don't know why).

 

ok back to the fiji

 

the problem is when driving at random times it loses power, at times it kinda has a rhythm at stedy throttle. like bam 1 2 3 bam 1 2 3 bam 1 2 3, so it kinda falls on its face, seems to happen at around 2-3500rpm but has happened on the freeway once. its kinda scary lol.....

 

what i have done

checked the timing Good

pumped a full tank of fuel(i thought the pump might be sucking up air which seems unlikly)

changed injector clips Good

cleaned injector terminals Good

checked vac lines Good

checnged front fuel filter

checked fuel cone filter and intank filter they look clean

 

what i plan on doing tomarrow

 

check tps

check cap and rotor Newer

check plugs

check grounds

 

idle is rock solid, it boosts fine when its not doing this. this is going to be my new DD so i want to get this sorted asap.

 

thanks in advance.

-joe

[Komeuppance]

How's your vac advance??

 

How about your secondary injector, clean spray pattern??

 

-Robert

[Starfighterpilot]

I'd also replace the spark plug & coil wires.

 

Check the connections on top of the coil to see if they are clean and tight.

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

Edited December 18, 2010 by Starfighterpilot

[mr.andaya]

i will check the vac advance today, im not sure how to check the spray patteren....

 

the wires are from the old motor(ran perfect) i will replace the coil(im using the one that came with the car.) with the coil off the 86(msd blaster)

 

to me it feels fuel related

 

thanks guys

-joe

[DieHARDmitsu.]

check the air filter canister lid, make sure its on tight. Also, check for air leaks on the turbo inlet hose and IC hoses; cracks, holes and loose clamps are things too look for.

[Indiana]

Just a minute, in case you weren't aware of this you might have to remember what you did or look at the old motor. When you put the flex plate and its two reinforcement rings on your 86 motor from the 89 auto, did you also pull that big bushing out of the end of the crankshaft of the 89 engine and put it into the end of the crankshaft of the 86 engine? If not, do not run that motor again. Your torque convertor is NOT CENTERED. It will EAT UP the front pump and case of your transmission when the bearing fails. Since its not exactly centered it lets the drum spin in an orbital patter and will also eat up the bands as they release and clamp and this is what makes your car move, that band is wrapped around the pump case, or the "drum" and that's like the clutch in a manual tranny setup.

 

There's one on here that did this and didn't put in the bushings and after he ate up two transmissions he went to a 5sp and blamed it on the transmissions being "weak" although they can be built to withstand over 700hp with different input shafts and a modified valve body. You must use this bushing and its not always easy to get out. It also must be removed if its used with a flywheel in a 5sp swap because it sticks out just a little and the flywheel will wobble.

 

more pic: http://www.b2600turb...m/flexplate.htm

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM009323.JPG

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM009318.JPG

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM009319.JPG

 

 

 

The flex plate can't be centered on the crankshaft, all the bolt holes are sloppy so are the torque convertor bolts. It will also eat up your starter drive gear.

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM009325.JPG

 

Let the bolt heads push the bushing in flush, don't push it in yourself too far.

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM009338.JPG

 

 

So, you're using the 89 throttlebody? You have common issues like dirty injector clips, dirty injectors, the vac. adv. mentioned. The fuel filter at the frame rail under the hood and there are screens in the upper portion of the throttlebody. Was your 86 a wide or flat body car? There are two distributors in 86 but that's something else and wouldn't cause anything you'd likely notice at this point.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Indiana

[mr.andaya]

i thought there was susposed to be a bushing on the crank, ill have to check out the old motor any rec on removing it from the crank? my old 86 was a widebody, i changed the under hood fuel filter and ill check the screens today.

[Indiana]

There's just a small gap behind the bushing and sometimes a pilot bearing puller used with a slide hammer works. Autozone in their rental tools has two bearings pullers get the one with the thinner edge on the jaws then if you unscrew the end you can screw that to the end of the slide hammer they rent.

[mr.andaya]

ill do that if i dont decide on making it a manual car. any other ideas? today i cleaned all the grounds(fuse box side of engine compartment) and fuse box connections, and cleaned the screens on the "fuel rail" changed the coil and tested the vac advance(holds 15hg, i tested for 5 mins). i drove the car again(i know indiana said not to but ive been driving it for a few days but it just started acting up.) and have the same prob. light throttle, moderate throttle samething. looking for some ideas, seems like it could be a fuel problem more than ignition prob.

 

thanks again guys

-joe

[mr.andaya]

what r the differences in distributors?

[Starfighterpilot]

what r the differences in distributors?

 

The only differences in the dizzy's are the '88-'89 counter weights/springs have a more agressive ignition advance curve than previous years.

 

Have you checked all of the tubing between the air cleaner cannister and the TB for ANY indications of cracking; especially at the TB to OVC metal piping tubing; and the vacuum assist tubing/hose to the power brake booster?

 

Try squirting Starter Fluid at all of the vacuum tubing and tubing joints to see if you have an increase in idle RPM; don't forget the tubing to the Speed control actuator and the vacuum pump and the various in line tubing check valves.

 

Is the vacuum tube between the bottom of the fuel pressure regulator to the TB casting nipple hooked up and to the proper port nipple?

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

 

Edit - Even tho you indicate that the coil/spark plug wires are fairly new (3 years unused) I'd still check 'em IAW the '88 Starion FSM Page 8-150 for the individual spark plug cable ohm readings noted there, while wiggling the cables. Are All of the cables' metal connectors Squeeky clean?

Edited December 19, 2010 by Starfighterpilot

[mr.andaya]

i will do that tomarrow, as for the wires.... they aren't from the 89 they are from the running 86 motor, the problem isnt a studder or a miss it seems more like a complete loss of power for a few seconds then back to normal.

i think i am going to convert the car to manual, i know i can figure out the problem better if i do and i think the car would be more fun to drive after this is figured out..... i really do miss my 86

thanks

-joe

[mr.andaya]

so ill be working on the car tomarrow, any more ideas?

 

 

thanks

-joe

[Wolf87Conquest]

I myself have had this issue with different cars, my 74 Cuda being one...the coil case needs to be well grounded. Make sure all the plug wires, including coil to cap, are clean and tight...I found that when things got warm underhood, the expansion caused the coil to occationally lose ground, the mount was tight, but the coil case moved within it's mount when warm, so a little sanding and getting it tight worked.

I'm not real sure, but didn't the 86's have a fuel cut somewhere? You may have transfered it, and not know it...I'd check on that as well.

[mr.andaya]

I belive the 86 fuel cut is in the ecu. I'm only using 86 long block,ign wires and dizzy. It feels like a on off switch.

[Wolf87Conquest]

Well now...86 distrib has a different ignition curve than the 89...might be a compatability issue with the ECU and sensors. Rate of advance might not be keeping up with fuel delivery. Knock sensor might "hear" the discrepancy and cut ignition or fuel. The 86 TB used the same size injectors and swapped which one fired, the 89 used the primary/secondary set up. Which is the reason for the difference in advance.

You don't need to pull the distrib, just swap advance weights and springs. Won't hurt to do it, and I usually coat the bottom of the weight and pivot post with a dab of ligtweight grease like Lubriplate. Keeps it working smoothly. Don't forget a little grease on the advance plate as well...make sure it moves smoothly while you are swapping the weights. It should hold steady with vac applied, and move back when released.

All the vac lines hooked up correctly and no leaks, I'd say the advance difference would contribute to the drivabilty issues you have.

All the sensors and wire harness for them should be compatable with the ECU. Won't hurt to make sure the ECU case is well grounded.

[mr.andaya]

i swaped the distributor stuff, checked all my intercooler piping for leaks(pressure checked), checked accordian tube, bypassed all the vacuum lines except the advance(new vac line) and fpr, checked vac advance(also drove around with vac line disconnected), did tps sweep test, changed lemon shaped gasket and lower tb gasket, cleaned grounds and rechecked fuel pump wiring,checked/cleaned ecu ground, swaped 86's cts . every thing so far checks good, next i will change the knock sensor and change the fuel pump to the 86's. same problem, at stedy throttle the car has a random loss of power(like a on/off switch) it doesnt feel like a studder or miss it starting to get more rythemic. the first 2 days i drove it it was fine 3rd day i felt one little hiccup and ever since it continues to do this.

 

thanks again guys

-joe

[Metric-man]

the problem is when driving at random times it loses power, at times it kinda has a rhythm at stedy throttle. like bam 1 2 3 bam 1 2 3 bam 1 2 3, so it kinda falls on its face, seems to happen at around 2-3500rpm but has happened on the freeway once. its kinda scary lol.....

 

What is "bam"?

 

Is it misfire or is it cut out?

 

If it is misfire change the plugs.

 

If it is cut out look at the throttle-body and the Fuel pressure regulator and return lines.

 

You said you checked the vacuum advance ?

 

Your Altitude pressure sensor on the 86 was on the fire wall,

On the 89 it's in the MAS

 

What trouble codes are you getting ?

[mr.andaya]

bam is a cutout, like i stated its like a on/off switch. im pretty sure it isnt a misfire, it lasts about 1-2 secs. i checked the vac advanced by using a vacuum pump, 15hg held for longer than 5 mins(i stoped checking afterwards). i also checked the fpr it held the same. i used all 89 eletronics(mas,knock,ecu) except for distributor(86) but i changed the weights and springs to 89 spec.

[Metric-man]

Internal seal damage, or a broken/cracked ceramic insulator tip,

I went through not quite as many things as you have trying to find the same problem, on my 86

 

I pulled all the plugs and found one that had the smallest what looked like crazing on the ceramic tip.

it was the smallest crack you could barely see,

I think I used a magnifying glass, and I manipulated it by tapping it or with a sharp pick,

and it slipped down the center electrode but it was still tight and wouldn't slip all the way to come off,

just enough to cover the electrode and keep it from firing randomly.

 

NGK video showing plug damage scenarios, (they don't show the cracked insulator tip one though).

 

 

Plug wires can short each other also and draw current away from the firing cylinder.

 

You said the fuel tank needed to be changed, I was betting it was the return lines or the regulator.

 

No trouble code huh ?

[mr.andaya]

i tried to check the codes but i couldnt get any and i didnt have internet access at the time. the power loss last about 1-2 seconds so i dont think it could be 1 cylinder but i could def be wrong. the previous owner bought the car with a spun rod bearing(oil pan crushed) i donno how long it was sitting before that. he said the fuel pump was bad aswell he drained the tank and it sat like that for about 1.5 years, i pulled the pickup and there was alot of surface rust in the tank and on the pickup(tank with no gas + condensation = bad).i had a spare tank/fuel pump from a 89 that i installed, it ran fine for 2 days lol, i has to be sumin easy but i just havent bumped into it yet haha

 

so plan of attack is..... change fuel pump(the one from the 86), change plugs,check knock sensor and check for codes but in reverse order lol

 

-joe

[Vnomous1]

i tried to check the codes but i couldnt get any and i didnt have internet access at the time. the power loss last about 1-2 seconds so i dont think it could be 1 cylinder but i could def be wrong. the previous owner bought the car with a spun rod bearing(oil pan crushed) i donno how long it was sitting before that. he said the fuel pump was bad aswell he drained the tank and it sat like that for about 1.5 years, i pulled the pickup and there was alot of surface rust in the tank and on the pickup(tank with no gas + condensation = bad).i had a spare tank/fuel pump from a 89 that i installed, it ran fine for 2 days lol, i has to be sumin easy but i just havent bumped into it yet haha

 

so plan of attack is..... change fuel pump(the one from the 86), change plugs,check knock sensor and check for codes but in reverse order lol

 

-joe

 

 

Probably a good idea to heed the warning from Indiana about the bushing and make sure it is installed. Besides that, I recommend another look at the TPS. I know you checked it, but what you describe certaninly seems like an "electronic/ignition" issue. I would also recommend removing the distibuter and cleaning it "properly". It is very easy; just ensure you line up the timing mark (10 BTDC) and ensre the rotor is pointing at the No.1 before you remove it. Ensure your "ignition pick-up' is good, if it has not been replaced, likely it's time for a new one.

[Indiana]

The fuel cut is only on a car with a pressure sensor because that's where the signal to do so comes from, 83-86s. There is no fuel cut on 87-89 ECUs, there is no place to generate one because those years ECU do not use pressure sensors. If you think you get a cut on an 87-89 then its a knock signal or ignition misfire.

 

The same issues anyone else could have is what you are having its not from a motor swap. The 86 throttlebody and injectors are the only different you need to worry about since the idle motor control is different so are the injector sizes. The distributor won't make any difference.

 

If there is any leaks in those vacuum hoses from the front port, that will cause a delay in the vacuum advance/boost retard of the vacuum advance unit. If that's happening then by then the knock sensor might have sent a signal to the ignitor to pull timing back and you get what seems like that "fuel cut". Its why the distributor also needs to be moving freely inside.

 

I don't see where you did anything with injectors to have them cleaned. Everything else might be perfect but a car with dirty injectors runs like crap and you'll have problems like this and throw those "codes" because all those mean is that something wasn't in the range, for a stock setup, that the ECU expected when compared to OTHER sensor inputs.

 

The only hose that needs to be on the FRONT port is the one that leads to the vac. adv., take all the others OFF that T into that port and plug/cap them and run a line only to the vac. adv.

[Indiana]

For your CTS, make sure you have the right connector on it, its the one that has a black wire and a yellow striped wire in it. When new, it had a molded rubber boot on the end also to keep the connection clean and dry, might still have or part of it.

 

 

If you use the other connector that also fits that CTS, it is wrong and goes back to the temperature gauge and in an auto transmission/hvac car its a switch and that causes the ECU to put in too much fuel all the time. The gauge conector has two yellow wires with stripes and also a second and most time unused single connector with a yellow striped wire.

[Metric-man]

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j382/Starion_Cult/BPSPAGE1464-1.jpg?t=1293419258

 

(at idle) 3.8 - 4.2v at terminal 16 on the ECU / 5v at terminal 10 on the ECU

 

Test only after clearing ECU codes.