401 / 427 TBI power. E85 power

[StarquestRescue]

Well the E85 was only good for about 19 psi. I tried to take it to 20, but hit 21 psi and what looks to have been a dsm style fuel cut. My afc air flow signal was sky high and stable right before both injectors shut off.

 

The car started and ran fine on the E85, just smelled a little odd. I added 25-30% more fuel with the neo over the gas settings. I figure i would need 1050/1800 injectors to run ethanol at the 300hp/400tq level. Maybe next year if i stay tbi. Winter is closing in. I might try a 50/50 blend on the injectors i have now.

 

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/E85fuelcut.jpg

Edited October 15, 2010 by StarquestRescue

[Technology]

My cam swap was worth it, in my opinion. The turbo came on ~200 rpm sooner and HP stayed much flatter, for longer. 125 bucks for a new cam, 100 bucks for an adjustable cam gear, some time and patience for degreeing, and it feels like a different car.

[jinx]

I've always maintained that g54 performance cam area is weak, simply because of lack of "testing".

Look how many of the torque curve nosedive the same - cam or not

If u read what cam testing eipquest went thru with the blue car, you'll understand exactly what I mean, and why he performed as well as he did reverting back to the stock cam.

Then to confirm, look how the '350hp' tbi car gained a whopping 100hp without any other changes, through sweating cam details via feedback to Schnieder.

Cams r definitely worth it IF ground and set up correctly. They'll show a pronounced difference in dyno and ET

 

forced performance recommends a 18g/clip 05, just like they and buschur do with their 20g.

A 54 got the lungs to spin it up

 

I too am all for "bang for the buck", but just looking at the stock exhaust manifold design, you could see why it will hamper you when trying to move alot of air(=hp).... perhaps why they all taper off around low 300s hp, while only the torque goes up with more boost. Stock turbine housing is another topic

Obviously these will get the job done if 'on a budget' and that's the target, no question

IIRC, even kronus nice 18g mpi car saw 321hp and 400 ft-lbs

[StarquestRescue]

I still think cams and head porting is overrated. Same with headers. A external gate should help keep back pressure in check.

I will clarified my statement. I think properly set up cams are appropriate for big turbo cars. But a waste of money on small turbo cars.

 

Most of the cammed cars on here are undegreaded and paired with 12a's. When i had a 19c i saw zero improvement in track times when i added a degreed cam and ported head. My cam was worthless un degreed. In reality i probably picked up 20 hp from the cam and port work, but the slow spooling lazy 19c could not fully take advantage of it like the explosive spooling 18g.

 

Blue cook did not get 100hp from just a cam. I am pretty sure the $600 header, $1200 turbo and other changes were made as well from his 250 hp run. And how do you make 350 hp from 1850 cc's of injectors? Some thing is not right there.

 

Eip tuned to the engines strengths, others would be wise to do the same.

[Technology]

I will clarified my statement. I think properly set up cams are appropriate for big turbo cars. But a waste of money on small turbo cars.

 

Most of the cammed cars on here are undegreaded and paired with 12a's. When i had a 19c i saw zero improvement in track times when i added a degreed cam and ported head. My cam was worthless un degreed. In reality i probably picked up 20 hp from the cam and port work, but the slow spooling lazy 19c could not fully take advantage of it like the explosive spooling 18g.

 

Blue cook did not get 100hp from just a cam. I am pretty sure the $600 header, $1200 turbo and other changes were made as well from his 250 hp run. And how do you make 350 hp from 1850 cc's of injectors? Some thing is not right there.

 

Eip tuned to the engines strengths, others would be wise to do the same.

 

 

I should say that the cam I had before was an undegreed 274h with solid rockers. I will have to go back and read through the 350hp TBI thread again to refresh myself, but I didn't know he added a header and changed the turbo, I thought all that stayed the same, with maybe only a 1 or 2 psi change in boost.

 

The 1850cc total breaks down to 465cc or something per cylinder. Slightly bigger than a stock DSM 450. How much can they make on stock injectors? I can see it happening, but the IDC's would be pretty high up there or it's running lean. Then again, you could get crazy with fuel pressure and hope it positively affects injector output. Sometimes it can degrade injector performance.

 

Since you brought up EIP, I will be going back to the dyno sometime this year, maybe in november, realistically. But I'll try to get an overlay graph of the magna vs. the EIP cannon at the same boost, maybe 26 psi. I hope it's an obvious gain of course, but even if it's only a top end thing, I'll be ok with that.

[psu_Crash]

I should say that the cam I had before was an undegreed 274h with solid rockers. I will have to go back and read through the 350hp TBI thread again to refresh myself, but I didn't know he added a header and changed the turbo, I thought all that stayed the same, with maybe only a 1 or 2 psi change in boost.

 

The 1850cc total breaks down to 465cc or something per cylinder. Slightly bigger than a stock DSM 450. How much can they make on stock injectors? I can see it happening, but the IDC's would be pretty high up there or it's running lean. Then again, you could get crazy with fuel pressure and hope it positively affects injector output. Sometimes it can degrade injector performance.

 

Since you brought up EIP, I will be going back to the dyno sometime this year, maybe in november, realistically. But I'll try to get an overlay graph of the magna vs. the EIP cannon at the same boost, maybe 26 psi. I hope it's an obvious gain of course, but even if it's only a top end thing, I'll be ok with that.

 

I would love to see an overlay of Magna vs Cannon!

DSMs with the 450s are pushing low 300 on stock fuel pressure and 350ish with the FP cranked up.

[jinx]

Blue cook did not get 100hp from just a cam. I am pretty sure the $600 header, $1200 turbo and other changes were made as well from his 250 hp run

No. It was the cam only..... post #69 from the thread, in his own words

"100hp just from cam degreeing.... before, the car put down 245 hp. Same exact set up just a little different tune on MAFT"

 

I have no problem believeing its possible, since I've seen what a "good" cam does for other motors.

For example, I posted a 1.8L 2valve corolla from pinks all out, ETs 10.2sec full weight daily driven. I doubt the same setup would touch 13s with the stock cam

 

Sure you can hit a reasonable target without a cam, especially for the more popular TBI budget builds, but the advantage of a good cam is to make more power at less boost, and on pump gas.... regardless of turbo.

 

And how do you make 350 hp from 1850 cc's of injectors? Some thing is not right there

fuel pressure ? .....or a characteristic of lower rpm motors maybe ?

Look what 2.3 fords get out of their stock 35 lb injectors for example. Some of them upgrade to dsm 450s

TBI/350 thread did mention that dyno was perhaps a "little happy" tho..... more like ~320-330 suspected.

 

but the slow spooling lazy 19c could not fully take advantage of it like the explosive spooling 18g

Interesting comment, as for years we hear how the "C" wheels strongest point is its quick spooling

 

Eip tuned to the engines strengths, others would be wise to do the same

should be carved in stone

[StarquestRescue]

Well i was able to make it to the dyno day late in the day. I swapped on a 17c tdo5h. I always liked this turbo and since i had to change a power steering high pressure hose i had to take off some stuff anyway.

 

My 3" exhaust really woke the car up. Duh, should have upgraded a long time ago.

 

17c tdo5h 50% E85 50% 93. First run 20 psi last two 22 psi. These are uncorrected #'s. Corrected is in the 280-285 / 370-380 range at 22psi. I have been driving it like this confident the e85 will keep detonation at bay. This set up starts to spool about 2000 and hits 22psi about 100 rpm sooner than the 18g.

 

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC02177-1.jpg

[dmyers151]

Great numbers yet again, congrats John.

 

Do you have any datalogs of the run or any street pulls?

[psu_Crash]

Looking Great Jon!

Too bad you made more with the 18G on there

Have you had a chance to compare track times between the 18G an 17C?

[ColtStar]

Well i was able to make it to the dyno day late in the day. I swapped on a 17c tdo5h. I always liked this turbo and since i had to change a power steering high pressure hose i had to take off some stuff anyway.

 

My 3" exhaust really woke the car up. Duh, should have upgraded a long time ago.

 

17c tdo5h 50% E85 50% 93. First run 20 psi last two 22 psi. These are uncorrected #'s. Corrected is in the 280-285 / 370-380 range at 22psi. I have been driving it like this confident the e85 will keep detonation at bay. This set up starts to spool about 2000 and hits 22psi about 100 rpm sooner than the 18g.

 

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC02177-1.jpg

Try putting on a TD06H on your 17c....It will outflow that 5H like you have no idea and keep pullin up top.

4g63's dont have the exhaust flow of the g54b and the 6h slows their spool alot. Thats why their better off

with the 5H on the street. I ran the Sy/Ty Td06 17c and it pulled till 6k. quick spool too.

[brianpaul98]

Try putting on a TD06H on your 17c....It will outflow that 5H like you have no idea and keep pullin up top.

4g63's dont have the exhaust flow of the g54b and the 6h slows their spool alot. Thats why their better off

with the 5H on the street. I ran the Sy/Ty Td06 17c and it pulled till 6k. quick spool too.

 

 

I also have a 19C with the TD06 wheel and its at full boost as soon as your foot hits the floor. As a matter of fact that's the turbo I ran the 11.90 with. I can't imagine anyone who runs one on a G54B saying it spools slow. If it does something else is wrong with the engine setup.

[Technology]

I'd put the 18g back on, it makes more power. You ever hear of a C wheel on a dsm or evo? hells no. 16G minimum.

[jinx]

so you didn't have a 3 inch exhaust on the 18g dyno ?

[StarquestRescue]

I'd put the 18g back on, it makes more power. You ever hear of a C wheel on a dsm or evo? hells no. 16G minimum.

I knew the 17c would make less power, but it did much better than i expected. The 18g really needs an external gate. I had some concerns it was on the way out and wanted to get a better look at it. The steel braided lines were leaking and there were some fit and finish issues. The 18 will be back, maybe with a clip or tdo6 or tdo6h

 

The 18g was a little to much for my injectors even on 50% E85. The more gradual spool up off the 17c let me run more boost with out hitting fuel cut.

 

so you didn't have a 3 inch exhaust on the 18g dyno ?

The 3" was on when the 18g tdo5h was dynoed at 297/403. I had it to the track twice with the 3", but broke both times.

[StarquestRescue]

I also have a 19C with the TD06 wheel and its at full boost as soon as your foot hits the floor. As a matter of fact that's the turbo I ran the 11.90 with. I can't imagine anyone who runs one on a G54B saying it spools slow. If it does something else is wrong with the engine setup.

A 19c td06 vs a 19c td05h with a 15 degree clip is probably apples to oranges anyway. The vast majority are the td05h with a 15 degree clip. My 17c td05h has a totally different personality from my 19c. The 19c would probably benefit from an ebc.

 

The area to the left of the 19c boost trace is where the 19c is getting it's tail kicked, even if the spike was not there. And than it probably gives up efficiency above 20 psi.

 

It was hard to find a 19c track log where i launched with out bogging, smoking the clutch trying not to bog or smoking the tires. My car had the 2.5 exhaust at the time. Note the shorter time spent in first gear with the 18g. The logs are synced at the 1/2 shift.

 

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/18gvs19c.jpg

 

Note the lazy 3/4 shift on the 18g tps trace.

 

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/18gtdo5vs19ctdo5h.jpg

Edited October 28, 2010 by StarquestRescue

[ColtStar]

I'd put the 18g back on, it makes more power. You ever hear of a C wheel on a dsm or evo? hells no. 16G minimum.

It's the exhaust side of the Sy/Ty (TD06 17c) turbo that seems to make the power and pull up top where a 5H falls off. The 17c compressor wheel is for quick spool up to like 20psi. A TD06 17c flows 550 cfm right there with an 18g. Supposedly flows up to 380HP. IMO a great little

Street TBI turbo. Thats what I ran on a stock motor. I'm not sure but, more boost with a G style TD06 compressor wheel

would require more fuel then stock injectors. I don't think a TD05 16 or 18G would make more power then a

Syclone/Typhone TD06. Correct me if i'm wrong

[ColtStar]

I also have a 19C with the TD06 wheel and its at full boost as soon as your foot hits the floor. As a matter of fact that's the turbo I ran the 11.90 with. I can't imagine anyone who runs one on a G54B saying it spools slow. If it does something else is wrong with the engine setup.

BP

Thats pretty impressive...What type of power were you putting out and was that with a full

weight TBI car? Sounds like the benchmark. I would like to hear about your setup.

Edited October 29, 2010 by ColtStar

[Technology]

SQRescue, what's this fuel cut issue? You can't adjust what load your fuel cut is at? I can, but I guess that's one of the advantages of MP-why, lmao! I think mine is at 30psi or something right now. lol

[StarquestRescue]

SQRescue, what's this fuel cut issue? You can't adjust what load your fuel cut is at? I can, but I guess that's one of the advantages of MP-why, lmao! I think mine is at 30psi or something right now. lol

What is happening is that since i am adding additional fuel (higher air flow hz signal) with the afc for E85, the ecu is seeing a signal at or above about 2000 hz for to long of a time period. There is allway an air flow spike when the turbo first hits full spool and this is where the logger shows the injectors shutting off.

 

Well the E85 was only good for about 19 psi. I tried to take it to 20, but hit 21 psi and what looks to have been a dsm style fuel cut. My afc air flow signal was sky high and stable right before both injectors shut off.

 

The car started and ran fine on the E85, just smelled a little odd. I added 25-30% more fuel with the neo over the gas settings. I figure i would need 1050/1800 injectors to run ethanol at the 300hp/400tq level. Maybe next year if i stay tbi. Winter is closing in. I might try a 50/50 blend on the injectors i have now.

 

100% E85 18g turbo

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/E85fuelcut.jpg

I have another log showing the same thing, but i guess i did not up load the screen shot yet.

The way around it is bigger injectors, which will bring the afc hz out put to the ecu with in the ecus normal range. The same way you would deal with it on a dsm using just an afc.

 

In the past when i ran my injectors at or near 100% my fcon was controlling the injectors and adding the extra fuel. That would be another way around the problem, but that solution works best at the track or dyno. The fcon has serious lean issues when i run up hill,or at part throttle (lower boost).

Edited October 29, 2010 by StarquestRescue

[StarquestRescue]

In the past "fuel cut" has been blamed on mass over run. And i have logs showing that happening on the 1g or stock mas as well. Now why over run symptoms appear at lower air flow levels than they do on a dsm car i do not really know. I suspect it has a lot to do with our hard pipe design, turbulence from the turbo effecting the air flow through the mas (I run a baffle in mime and i know i need a better baffle)and inferior smoothing tables in our ecu. The evo guys went to an s shaped ahp when they had problems with a j shape.

 

Here you can see the tell tale signs of mas over run. Erratic signal that drops of when it shouldn't The injectors tracked the second big dip (but did not shut off cleanly) and the engine went lean. This is the kind of stuff that blows motors and gave tbi a bad name in the old days.

 

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/Fuelcutdifferentview1-1.jpg

[StarquestRescue]

Well i am getting the new set up dialed in. Forged bottom end now and bigger injectors (1050 /1800) . Thought i would try the clipped 19c again. Back pressure is still sky high. . Running 80% e85, 20% 93. Primary is still to small.

 

Ran my best 1/8 and 1/4 mph in the heat, but missed bettering my best et.. A little wheel spin and hop on the 13.2 run. The car should go faster with the 18g but i am out of fuel pump. I really need to get a real turbo for this car.

 

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC02500.jpg

 

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/E85FuelPresssureDrop.jpg

[boostdquest89]

Thats awesome!

[Technology]

What fuel pump do you have?

[StarquestRescue]

What fuel pump do you have?

It is a old tep Bosch "350" maybe 8 -10 years old. A discontinued model. I would like an 044, but they get expensive with the fittings and all. I might try my old 1400 secondary as a primary and drop the base pressure down.