mistapickles Posted December 21, 2012 Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 I've been doing some electrical work and this was sitting around the shop so I rolled it for a couple days....http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo278/mistapickles/image-30_zps28fcc10e.jpg911 Carrera 4S Convertible....long story short, I love the way this car handles...it stays flat in all aspects, acceleration, braking and turns. It did push into a couple turns, but as fast as I was going I'm not super surprised although I thought the back end would break loose before the front would push. Just counting in my head it did 0-60 in about four seconds, the front didn't raise nor did the rear squat which made it scary. You mash the pedal and you're like holy s*** 100mph. The brakes sucked but other than that, loveded it. I looked the car over and it's got some beefy sway bars, some non distinct looking struts and strut tower supports that look like they're for a bridge... Is there anybody out there that can tell me what I'm really looking at? and how to translate that to a Starion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyWadd Posted December 21, 2012 Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 Every little but is gonna add up to making the starion feel tractable like the porsch. Weight distibution. Balanced settings on the coilovers. Zero play in the steering. Minimal chassis flex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creakyjoints Posted December 21, 2012 Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 Must be something wrong with the brakes. Braking and corner exit acceleration are where rear engine cars shine. Especially Porsche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creakyjoints Posted December 21, 2012 Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 Must be something wrong with the brakes. Braking and corner exit acceleration are where rear engine cars shine. Especially Porsche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistapickles Posted December 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 Every little but is gonna add up to making the starion feel tractable like the porsch. Weight distibution. Balanced settings on the coilovers. Zero play in the steering. Minimal chassis flex.I'm not getting D2's until next year, where do you think I could start to get the most bang for my buck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyWadd Posted December 21, 2012 Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 I'm not getting D2's until next year, where do you think I could start to get the most bang for my buck? Swaybars. new bushings. proper swaybar endlink spacing. those rear crossmember bushings are a weak link in our cars. a metal one like they make for the 240's would help.Or just the urethane one. Strut tower braces. I've been looking at the 240 sx front front radius arm braces I think they might fit our cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyWadd Posted December 21, 2012 Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) Another thing that I thought of about staying flat on braking and acceleration is the radius rod letting the front arm shift forward or backward...especially if the car is lowered because is chances the deflection of the radius rod as the suspension compresses during braking. Kinda like wheel hop in the back. Never noticednit on my d2's, they don't compress much, but my front tires skipped once when I braked hard on my eibachs. The car dived first and then gripped hard then skipped. So anything to locate the LCA solidly and let it move only up and down would help...like a rose joint / pillow ball set up or even adjust the radius arm when lowering. Edited December 21, 2012 by JohnnyWadd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted December 21, 2012 Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) Here's what made the most difference for me in these areas: Braking: Porterfield racing pads all around and stainless braided lines in front. Already had iRotors slotted and cross-drilled rotors. Turning: Alignment by a guy with a brain. I already had artinist sleeve-overs and tokico shocks The alignment helped all around though, braking, turning, and acceleration were all better after that. Edited December 21, 2012 by Technology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dred_85.5_TSI Posted December 21, 2012 Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 the Mk1 strut rods/radius rods do wonders for the front suspension. They fit both the widebody and flattys. Heim joints and solid aluminum bushings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komeuppance Posted December 21, 2012 Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 The most bang for the buck is stiffer shocks and springs, adjustable so you can lower the center of gravity... a proper alignment is the final step of installation here. And then tires... these will make or break the cars handling performance. A set of upgraded brake pads if you're really starting to attack corners, and then SS lines is the next step. If you're tracking, then larger brakes will be needed. From there you can fine tune, but that's where you should start. -Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistapickles Posted December 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 ok, from what I'm reading it sounds like urethane, or better yet billet, bushings first, springs, struts(hopefully D2's), sway bars, radius rods, heim joints and a good alignment is the order I should get my suspension together??? I'm really happy with my brakes, I have steel braided lines, drilled and slotted rotors, rebuilt calipers and a brand spankin new master cylinder. As far as tires go, I have new tires in the front but really old hard ones in the back because my transmission is really tired. I think the first time I launch with some good tires is the day gears will explode through my tranny tunnel and decapitate my legs. I have a tranny getting rebuilt at the shop right now, so tires are soon. Does anybody know what the weight distribution is for our cars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creakyjoints Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 Biggest bang for your buck is TIRES! Been proven over and over again to be the biggest upgrade. Take all those fancy bits and put lame tires on the car and they are basically useless. Assuming that all the stock stuff is still working as it should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistapickles Posted December 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 Biggest bang for your buck is TIRES! Been proven over and over again to be the biggest upgrade. Take all those fancy bits and put lame tires on the car and they are basically useless. Assuming that all the stock stuff is still working as it should.I know, really though when my transmission is in neutral it sounds like somebody opening and closing scissors only louder. When I get my new transmission in I'll put new tires on the back, for the moment I like playing drift star but that's playing. When the tranny comes it's all about business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komeuppance Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 Springs and struts first. (D2 or mr2 conversion). Split is 53/47 or close, posted it a long time ago but can't look it up right now. -Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patra_is_here Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 also, it should be noted that the porshe is particularly smarter than the SQ. it's got advanced ABS, traction control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistapickles Posted December 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 Project Porsche Handling has started...I got a lower radiator support off a 2008 Dodge Ram. I'm going to weld it in between the rear strut towers.http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo278/mistapickles/image-30_zpsacdfa61d.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyWadd Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 (edited) also, it should be noted that the porshe is particularly smarter than the SQ. it's got advanced ABS, traction control Thats funny becuase he complained about the brakes. Project Porsche Handling has started...I got a lower radiator support off a 2008 Dodge Ram. I'm going to weld it in between the rear strut towers.http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo278/mistapickles/image-30_zpsacdfa61d.jpg Awesome, seems like overkill, but then we have seem a tractor 3 point PTO brace in there too. Edited December 31, 2012 by JohnnyWadd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud81918 Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 (edited) I wouldn't spent too much time on the weight ditrubution. Sure, if you were making a racecar, but it was born ugly (about as ugly as the Porsche). As said before tires are key. Good tires will both make you car do everything better and show you the suspensions failures in detail. A bunch of folks have already talked about the suspension arms and bushings, but you must also take the suspension design into account. Mcstruts are rough to deal with. They can be made good and there are some positives with them, but they can be a bit of a pain to get right and most times "right" is just the best comprimise as they are always some degree of wrong. I've yet to get up the elbows on the Starions suspension, but I have a feeling it is scary. The front is simple enough, but I have no idea what should be shot for. The rear is probably a Stephen King book. Take the idea of compramise to heart if you are wanting to make you car handle. You can get it to that level and even exceed the level of that Porsche, but you will not have that refinement; You'll have a racecar. To run a street style tire, like the Porsche, you really need to control the camber arc on the suspension. You will have to stiffen it up a lot (D2s will help there). You will probably have to run agressive static alignment numbers. As for balence I'm sure with the right fiddling with tire sizes, caster and wheel spring rate you can get the car to a great handling level and make up a lot for weight distrobution. Overall, don't worry about weight distrobution. People get rapped up far too quickly. Moving a battery to the back is a minisule change compared to many of the others covered. Use the money for stuff that makes the biggest impacts. I can only imagine that the Starion is not a tight car so all of this will be really interesting as things get harder on the suspension side. Chassis-flex will become a consern, but controlling the camber change will mean it will start the creep in. Caging the car would help a lot. Bars will help some, but without triangulation they'll be limited. Don't think "Big and heavy", think "solid points tied together". If a solid point can move away from another solid point tie them together in the most direct way possible. Metals tend to have tensile strength greater than the compression strength. Using that mentality will increase the performance for the amount of weight added. A nice peice of DOM tubing may work just as well or better than a big I-beam, and it will be much lighter. Get in touch with you local SCCA. They hold autocrosses, go to them, and suck in as much as you can. Let experenced people with cars simular to yours drive your car. You will get to be better driver, understand the car better and get valuable feedback. You may also get some seat time in other well setup cars, which will help guide you. While you can bolt on parts and setup the car to what other people say and it will probably be "better", it won't be it's best if it isn't tested and tuned in; Also you can't really know how to use it if you don't have wheel time. Sorry for the brain dump. As said I haven't yet jumped into this car full force, but hopefully something in there can help. Edited December 31, 2012 by Cloud81918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyWadd Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 I wouldn't spent too much time on the weight ditrubution. Sure, if you were making a racecar, but it was born ugly (about as ugly as the Porsche). As said before tires are key. Good tires will both make you car do everything better and show you the suspensions failures in detail. A bunch of folks have already talked about the suspension arms and bushings, but you must also take the suspension design into account. Mcstruts are rough to deal with. They can be made good and there are some positives with them, but they can be a bit of a pain to get right and most times "right" is just the best comprimise as they are always some degree of wrong. I've yet to get up the elbows on the Starions suspension, but I have a feeling it is scary. The front is simple enough, but I have no idea what should be shot for. The rear is probably a Stephen King book. Take the idea of compramise to heart if you are wanting to make you car handle. You can get it to that level and even exceed the level of that Porsche, but you will not have that refinement; You'll have a racecar. To run a street style tire, like the Porsche, you really need to control the camber arc on the suspension. You will have to stiffen it up a lot (D2s will help there). You will probably have to run agressive static alignment numbers. As for balence I'm sure with the right fiddling with tire sizes, caster and wheel spring rate you can get the car to a great handling level and make up a lot for weight distrobution. Overall, don't worry about weight distrobution. People get rapped up far too quickly. Moving a battery to the back is a minisule change compared to many of the others covered. Use the money for stuff that makes the biggest impacts. I can only imagine that the Starion is not a tight car so all of this will be really interesting as things get harder on the suspension side. Chassis-flex will become a consern, but controlling the camber change will mean it will start the creep in. Caging the car would help a lot. Bars will help some, but without triangulation they'll be limited. Don't think "Big and heavy", think "solid points tied together". If a solid point can move away from another solid point tie them together in the most direct way possible. Metals tend to have tensile strength greater than the compression strength. Using that mentality will increase the performance for the amount of weight added. I nace peice of DOM tubing may work just as well or better than a big I-beam. Get in touch with you local SCCA. They hold autocrosses, go to them, and suck in as much as you can. Let experenced people with cars simular to yours drive your car. You will get to be better driver, understand the car better and get valuable feedback. You may also get some seat time in other well setup cars, which will help guide you. Sorry for the brain dump. As said I haven't yet jumped into this car full force, but hopefully something in there can help. Agree. Could prolly use two peices of steel one between the tower and one tri 'ed down through the floor to the subframe mount for a stiffer chassis. I wonder too about the rear hatch area , i jacked my car up in the driveway tonight to dump the fuel dilluted oil out and install my new tps and warm it up , it has a week of melted snow piled up on it and when i jacked the front the snow and ice cracked outta the gaps in the rear hatch from jacking the front on the car. I thought that was alot of flex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StallionProject86 Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 Split is 53/47 or close, posted it a long time ago but can't look it up right now. -Robert Correct, here's the article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patra_is_here Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) Thats funny becuase he complained about the brakes. yeah, which makes me wonder why he said the brakes sucks. those cars have ceramic composite brakes. probably out-brake most other cars on the road. maybe he didn't get em up to temp ?? the 60 to zero is 104 feet, which is only 4 more feet than the audi R8 GT !!!http://www.popularmechanics.com/cm/popularmechanics/images/ww/audi-r8-0611-mdn.jpg so if the brakes on a 200,000 audi supercar aren't good enough, you're probably never be satisfied. Edited January 4, 2013 by patra_is_here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistapickles Posted January 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Ok, I lowered my car and from what I understand you only want to lower it until the control arms are parallel with the ground. Is that correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Convette Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 That only depends on how stiff you're setup is. I would only go close to that def no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistapickles Posted January 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 right now I'm using the stock struts and Vegas is pretty flat...what do you think??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Convette Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 For driving around in a street car I'm sure it'll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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