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Wilwood big brake setup


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#21 Maxzillian

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 09:47 PM

Prints have now been amended to the first post!

I've put about 400 miles on the setup so far and my initial impression is good. I did notice that I actually have additional pedal play (IE, softer and feels like air in the lines). I can't tell if there's still air in the calipers, the calipers are flexing, the cheap lines are flexing, or all of the above. Regardless, braking performance is good and it's impossible to detect any fade with these things, even when using the brakes to load the engine up before exiting a corner when combating turbo lag. ;)

Hopefully within the next couple months I'll have the rear brakes sorted and working!
What's the fun in making something simple?

'87 TSI - StarOrion braided brake lines, StarOrion radiator, StarOrion alternator, StarOrion 2.5" stainless exhaust w/Magnaflow muffler, 1G MAS, Competition Clutch 15 lb flywheel, Competition Clutch Stage 4 clutch, Mookeh polyurethane bushings, ABS elimination, 8:1 Wiseco Pistons, TD05 14G turbocharger, Axiss ceramic rear brake pages, Hawk HP+ front pads, heat wrapped and ported exhaust manifold/turbine housing, Accusump oil accumulator, remote oil filter, NJV head, EVO intercooler, remote battery, D2 coil over struts, flatty front struts and control arms, 8" non-SHP wheels all four corners, 12.75"x1.25" front rotors with 4 pot Wilwood calipers, manual brakes using dual master cylinders and balance bar, gutted (deleted) brake proportioning valve and modified steering pump speed sensitive valve.





#22 Convette

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 10:11 PM

Once again thank you for your hard work, and doing things correctly.

#23 autotr8er2

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 11:36 PM

great job on the brake kit!  I'll be building a set soon.  Thanks for getting the hardest part done for the rest of us.
Does anybody offer Lay-away anymore?

#24 Lance_S

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 12:18 AM

What do those calipers cost?
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My feedback:  http://www.starquest...howtopic=127993

#25 Lance_S

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 01:24 AM

Prices:

$160 each for the calipers
$200 each for the rotors
$134 each for the hats

Total $988.00 without pads. It's a ton of coin for brakes but if your tracking it, they are worth it. Oh, don't forget the pads!!! That with the D's will make a great suspension and brake package. Well done. Oh, BTW, these are retail prices from Wilwood's website. I don't know if you can get discounts through dealers or not. It might be worth finding out though.
Hardpipes, MAFT, GM MAS, 3" DP, 2.5" exhaust, 950/1050 Trilogy injectors, K&N filter, Machined and balance flywheel 23 lbs, short shift, 88/89 tranny, HD ACT clutch, DSM EVO3 S16g ported (21 psi), polished and clipped, NJV head (ported), larger SS Valves, Schneider springs, Ajusa HG, Adjustable FPR, MBC, BOV, MSD coil, Walbro 255, ABS, EGR and balance shaft elim, 88/89 ECU, UEGO 02, new or rebuilt everything.

My feedback:  http://www.starquest...howtopic=127993

#26 autotr8er2

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 01:29 PM

I looked at the Wilwood site and it looks as though you can come up with several setups for brakes with the various hats, rotors and calipers.  Are you planning on upgrading the rears as well?  I remember you had the calipers and found the rest of the components to fit.  Will you have a different approach to building the rears?
Does anybody offer Lay-away anymore?

#27 Maxzillian

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 05:49 PM

I will be doing the rears as well. I am currently held up on measuring the weight balance and center of gravity of the car before I can properly size the rear brake components.

The rears are going to pose their own challenge in that they'll require a second set of mechanical calipers to handle parking brake duty. I don't suspect I'll have this done until late summer or fall.
What's the fun in making something simple?

'87 TSI - StarOrion braided brake lines, StarOrion radiator, StarOrion alternator, StarOrion 2.5" stainless exhaust w/Magnaflow muffler, 1G MAS, Competition Clutch 15 lb flywheel, Competition Clutch Stage 4 clutch, Mookeh polyurethane bushings, ABS elimination, 8:1 Wiseco Pistons, TD05 14G turbocharger, Axiss ceramic rear brake pages, Hawk HP+ front pads, heat wrapped and ported exhaust manifold/turbine housing, Accusump oil accumulator, remote oil filter, NJV head, EVO intercooler, remote battery, D2 coil over struts, flatty front struts and control arms, 8" non-SHP wheels all four corners, 12.75"x1.25" front rotors with 4 pot Wilwood calipers, manual brakes using dual master cylinders and balance bar, gutted (deleted) brake proportioning valve and modified steering pump speed sensitive valve.

#28 Cloud81918

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 08:31 AM

I'm not certain the rears really need upgraded. You can use a proportioning valve to balance the brakes out. They are already pretty healthy vented brakes for the rear of a car.
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#29 Maxzillian

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 06:10 PM

Well, my intent to upgrade the rear brakes is to minimize the need for a proportioning valve (or balance bar if I go to a dual master cylinder setup as intend). I feel that this will net the best braking performance overall. I can confidently say that after romping the car around Pigeon Forge that the brakes are currently way out of balance. I know, no real surprise, but just letting you guys know. ;)
What's the fun in making something simple?

'87 TSI - StarOrion braided brake lines, StarOrion radiator, StarOrion alternator, StarOrion 2.5" stainless exhaust w/Magnaflow muffler, 1G MAS, Competition Clutch 15 lb flywheel, Competition Clutch Stage 4 clutch, Mookeh polyurethane bushings, ABS elimination, 8:1 Wiseco Pistons, TD05 14G turbocharger, Axiss ceramic rear brake pages, Hawk HP+ front pads, heat wrapped and ported exhaust manifold/turbine housing, Accusump oil accumulator, remote oil filter, NJV head, EVO intercooler, remote battery, D2 coil over struts, flatty front struts and control arms, 8" non-SHP wheels all four corners, 12.75"x1.25" front rotors with 4 pot Wilwood calipers, manual brakes using dual master cylinders and balance bar, gutted (deleted) brake proportioning valve and modified steering pump speed sensitive valve.

#30 old-colt

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 06:25 PM

I did a Wilwood swap back in the mid 90s using Superlite caliper F&R. I very quickly eliminated the brake booster after flatspotting a second set of race tires. When I put the car back together it will get Dynalites in the rear.
Originally I ran a proportioning valve which was fine once setup but I found the rear pads ran cool, hence the desire to educe the size back there.
The car now has a triple master setup in it which is much easier to live with.
Here is how I mounted the calipers up front, Cut off the upper mount and repositioned it and welded spacers to set the calipers where needed. This fits the common 12 7/8 disc up front nicely.
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#31 Maxzillian

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 09:37 AM

Just a bit of a progress report. I've yet to design the rear brake system, but in the meantime I've been running the car as is and have been doing more research. I've found that the front brakes work GREAT, but because of the piston sizing the car has too much front bias and actually brakes a little worse than stock. This was expected though.

However, I was doing some reading on the StopTech website and they explained that the only reason they offer front brake kits is because they size the caliper pistons so that the braking force on the front is close to stock, but use the larger rotors to gain more heat capacity in the braking system. I personally agree with this logic. After beating my head over how to design a rear brake system that incorporates my spare 4 piston calipers as well as a pair of mechanical calipers to handle parking brake duty, I've decided that I'm going to throw my spare calipers on the front of the car instead.

The reasoning is that the spare calipers are a 1.38" bore if I recall correctly. The current calipers on the front of the car are a 1.75". After doing some math, I found that if the fronts were changed to 1.38", this should actually drop the effective braking force a little below stock, but should still be much closer than what I currently have. As I never had problems locking up the stock brakes, I don't think this is a problem. I've always felt that our cars don't use enough rear brake anyway.

So today I'm going to throw on my 1.38" calipers and run it this weekend at a couple autocrosses. I suspect that in the end I'm just going to leave my rear brakes stock and just use a proportioning valve to balance things out. I honestly think this is the best street solution while still maintaining great brake performance on the track.

(I still want to try and fit two piece rotors in the rear though, just so things match. ;) )

Edit: Measured my spares and found they were 1.25" pistons. I did find a handy calculator to calculate the effective brake bias:

http://www.tceperfor...ias-calculator/

Stock: 64.5% front bias
Wilwood 1.75" w/12.75" rotors: 76.2% front bias
Wilwood 1.25" w/12.75" rotors: 62.1% front bias
Wilwood 1.38" w/12.75" rotors: 66.4% front bias

So while 1.25" falls slightly below stock, it's not so far that it should have any negative effect (and may be better as more of the rear brakes will be used). The 1.75" calipers were definitely overkill for the stock rears and comes as no surprise that my fronts lock up so early.

Looking at the fact that with better traction there is more weight transfer, 1.38" calipers would be best as they slightly increase front bias, but that doesn't factor in how the factory proportioning valve is set. If I'm really lucky, the 1.25" calipers will hit it right on the money and I won't need to change the proportioning valve.

Edited by Maxzillian, 26 August 2011 - 02:23 PM.

What's the fun in making something simple?

'87 TSI - StarOrion braided brake lines, StarOrion radiator, StarOrion alternator, StarOrion 2.5" stainless exhaust w/Magnaflow muffler, 1G MAS, Competition Clutch 15 lb flywheel, Competition Clutch Stage 4 clutch, Mookeh polyurethane bushings, ABS elimination, 8:1 Wiseco Pistons, TD05 14G turbocharger, Axiss ceramic rear brake pages, Hawk HP+ front pads, heat wrapped and ported exhaust manifold/turbine housing, Accusump oil accumulator, remote oil filter, NJV head, EVO intercooler, remote battery, D2 coil over struts, flatty front struts and control arms, 8" non-SHP wheels all four corners, 12.75"x1.25" front rotors with 4 pot Wilwood calipers, manual brakes using dual master cylinders and balance bar, gutted (deleted) brake proportioning valve and modified steering pump speed sensitive valve.

#32 TsTKl

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 02:42 PM

can you list the part number for the aluminum hats? What car is it designed for?
proof it did run at one point...
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#33 JohnnyWadd

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 04:24 PM

Nice work!

#34 Maxzillian

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 05:48 PM

View PostTsTKl, on 26 August 2011 - 02:42 PM, said:

can you list the part number for the aluminum hats? What car is it designed for?

Third paragraph, first post. If memory serves, they are for a Bel Air. If you search for the part number on Wilwood's site, it should tell you the application.

Edited by Maxzillian, 26 August 2011 - 05:49 PM.

What's the fun in making something simple?

'87 TSI - StarOrion braided brake lines, StarOrion radiator, StarOrion alternator, StarOrion 2.5" stainless exhaust w/Magnaflow muffler, 1G MAS, Competition Clutch 15 lb flywheel, Competition Clutch Stage 4 clutch, Mookeh polyurethane bushings, ABS elimination, 8:1 Wiseco Pistons, TD05 14G turbocharger, Axiss ceramic rear brake pages, Hawk HP+ front pads, heat wrapped and ported exhaust manifold/turbine housing, Accusump oil accumulator, remote oil filter, NJV head, EVO intercooler, remote battery, D2 coil over struts, flatty front struts and control arms, 8" non-SHP wheels all four corners, 12.75"x1.25" front rotors with 4 pot Wilwood calipers, manual brakes using dual master cylinders and balance bar, gutted (deleted) brake proportioning valve and modified steering pump speed sensitive valve.

#35 TsTKl

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 04:16 AM

View PostMaxzillian, on 26 August 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:


Third paragraph, first post. If memory serves, they are for a Bel Air. If you search for the part number on Wilwood's site, it should tell you the application.

my bad, I actually noticed it when I came back to this thread to check if you responed, hahaha.
proof it did run at one point...
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#36 JamesR

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 08:56 PM

View PostMaxzillian, on 26 August 2011 - 09:37 AM, said:

Just a bit of a progress report. I've yet to design the rear brake system, but in the meantime I've been running the car as is and have been doing more research. I've found that the front brakes work GREAT, but because of the piston sizing the car has too much front bias and actually brakes a little worse than stock. This was expected though.

However, I was doing some reading on the StopTech website and they explained that the only reason they offer front brake kits is because they size the caliper pistons so that the braking force on the front is close to stock, but use the larger rotors to gain more heat capacity in the braking system. I personally agree with this logic. After beating my head over how to design a rear brake system that incorporates my spare 4 piston calipers as well as a pair of mechanical calipers to handle parking brake duty, I've decided that I'm going to throw my spare calipers on the front of the car instead.

The reasoning is that the spare calipers are a 1.38" bore if I recall correctly. The current calipers on the front of the car are a 1.75". After doing some math, I found that if the fronts were changed to 1.38", this should actually drop the effective braking force a little below stock, but should still be much closer than what I currently have. As I never had problems locking up the stock brakes, I don't think this is a problem. I've always felt that our cars don't use enough rear brake anyway.

So today I'm going to throw on my 1.38" calipers and run it this weekend at a couple autocrosses. I suspect that in the end I'm just going to leave my rear brakes stock and just use a proportioning valve to balance things out. I honestly think this is the best street solution while still maintaining great brake performance on the track.

(I still want to try and fit two piece rotors in the rear though, just so things match. ;) )

Edit: Measured my spares and found they were 1.25" pistons. I did find a handy calculator to calculate the effective brake bias:

http://www.tceperfor...ias-calculator/

Stock: 64.5% front bias
Wilwood 1.75" w/12.75" rotors: 76.2% front bias
Wilwood 1.25" w/12.75" rotors: 62.1% front bias
Wilwood 1.38" w/12.75" rotors: 66.4% front bias

So while 1.25" falls slightly below stock, it's not so far that it should have any negative effect (and may be better as more of the rear brakes will be used). The 1.75" calipers were definitely overkill for the stock rears and comes as no surprise that my fronts lock up so early.

Looking at the fact that with better traction there is more weight transfer, 1.38" calipers would be best as they slightly increase front bias, but that doesn't factor in how the factory proportioning valve is set. If I'm really lucky, the 1.25" calipers will hit it right on the money and I won't need to change the proportioning valve.

I bought Oscar's first original brake upgrade back in 2003 and had the same exact issue.  It also came with 1.75' bore wilwoods.  My fronts would sometimes lock up on the street and autocrossing was really bad.  I even had my adj. proportional valve set to mostly rear bias and still had issues.  After a few years (around 2006) of trying to find a master cylinder upgrade (me, Oscar, and Art tried for along time for a solution) I did the similar research and came up with the same solution and switched to a 1.38" bore caliper.  The guys at Precision Brakes which designed Oscar's kit said the 1.38" was too small and would not work and no one believed it would work.  BUT IT SOLVED MY BRAKE ISSUES!!!!!  And NO need for a bigger master cylinder.  My pedal feel is STIFFER THEN STOCK, but thats how it like it.  It's very similar to my RX-7 which is my normal autox car.  I haven't had an issue since.  Years ago when I last talked to Oscar, I believe he was switching to 1.65" bore which was a new size for wilwoods at the time.

Keep us updated on the 1.25" bore.
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#37 Maxzillian

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:59 PM

Thanks for that James, it's good to know I'm looking the right direction. It'd be one thing if I were sticking with my original plan of developing an upgraded rear brake system, but it seems in my best interest just to leave it alone. A lot of the driving force behind this was figuring out that a bias bar is really only good for situations where you're always using maximum braking while a proportioning valve offers better braking performance in low to mid braking situations while still forming the same purpose as a bias bar.

Not to mention that I've never gotten the rear brakes hot, so why bother to upgrade them and run the penalty of more rotating mass, more expensive parts, and more unsprung weight? Didn't seem to make sense to me.

A full wilwood setup would have a nice wow factor though. :lol:

I didn't get to try the 1.25" calipers this weekend as planned. Turns out I forgot they were for .8" rotors and don't fit on 1.25" rotors worth a damn. Whoops! Luckily Wilwood makes their calipers in two halves so I'm just going to fabricate a spacer for at least a temporary solution. Possibly permanent depending on how it works out.
What's the fun in making something simple?

'87 TSI - StarOrion braided brake lines, StarOrion radiator, StarOrion alternator, StarOrion 2.5" stainless exhaust w/Magnaflow muffler, 1G MAS, Competition Clutch 15 lb flywheel, Competition Clutch Stage 4 clutch, Mookeh polyurethane bushings, ABS elimination, 8:1 Wiseco Pistons, TD05 14G turbocharger, Axiss ceramic rear brake pages, Hawk HP+ front pads, heat wrapped and ported exhaust manifold/turbine housing, Accusump oil accumulator, remote oil filter, NJV head, EVO intercooler, remote battery, D2 coil over struts, flatty front struts and control arms, 8" non-SHP wheels all four corners, 12.75"x1.25" front rotors with 4 pot Wilwood calipers, manual brakes using dual master cylinders and balance bar, gutted (deleted) brake proportioning valve and modified steering pump speed sensitive valve.

#38 D_Venable

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 11:24 PM

keep this info coming guys, I've got the Precision Brakes 13" kit sitting here, and it'll find it's way onto my Durban, eventually, and all this testing/info will be beneficial to me soon.
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#39 TsTKl

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 01:49 AM

I was under the impression that the more simple proportioning valves just "turned down" your rear braking force by restricting flow to the rear. If your problem is too much front braking force you wouldn't be able to adjust it rearword at all. It depends on your set up though. I guess technically you could put one on both the front and the rear and then reduce pressure to the front. Either way though, your adjusting your brake bias at the cost of increasing pedal effort. I like the idea of a bias bar better because your mechanically changing the force going into each individual master cylinder. With a stock style master cylinder your line pressure will be the same in both lines unless you restrict flow in one.
proof it did run at one point...
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#40 JamesR

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 01:34 PM

View PostMaxzillian, on 27 August 2011 - 10:59 PM, said:



I didn't get to try the 1.25" calipers this weekend as planned. Turns out I forgot they were for .8" rotors and don't fit on 1.25" rotors worth a damn. Whoops! Luckily Wilwood makes their calipers in two halves so I'm just going to fabricate a spacer for at least a temporary solution. Possibly permanent depending on how it works out.

I think wilwoods are available in different widths depending on part numbers.  It's been awhile since I've looked at the catalog.  I could be wrong though.
Starquest owner since 1988
88 Tsi (MPI conversion)
88 & 86 Tsi & 85 Technica (RIP)
1990 2.6L Turbo D50 (budget project)
93 RX-7 (277rwhp @10psi)
and a few others.




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