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Roller Camshaft Discussion - Data Collection


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#81 Funky Phil

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 10:05 AM

Just remember that exhaust backpressure works against valve seat pressure.
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#82 Tim_C.

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 01:01 PM

There are a lot of issues to get right when setting up a custom roller cam. Almost all set-ups will require a custom length valve. It should be a stainless valve so the head area allows more flow. Custom length stainless valves are not all hardened, so the proper VALVE shim / lash cap must be used in that case.
It is best to have the custom length stainless valves hardened, so there is no need for lash caps. The caps require someone who knows what they are doing, so the best cap size can be utilized, which requires the valve to be made a certain length accordingly.
I have run non-hardened stainless valves with lash caps for thousands of miles and still going. I could not find anyone who offered hardening of stainless valves back when I originally set it up. My machinist said we had to use the caps, and he was very experienced at it in race engines.
I had 125 Lbs of seat pressure with dual coil springs when I originally set it up. Still going strong with 20K+ miles on it.
So if you use used stock valves that have been ground on the top side, it may be ground too close to the point where the hardening penetrated, thus making for a weak set-up that won't hold up. My point is that there can be a lot of seat pressure and still last and be reliable if other things are done correctly. And that most likely, a roller cam will not set up correctly with stock length valves.
'87TSi .510Roller Cam, JE Forged, TS Rings & plateau honed walls, lightened rods, race prepped crank, mains line honed, balanced, 17C, 3"EX, 2"HardPipes, AlFly, rrfpr, 88trans, 3.90's w/posi plate mods, polyBushings, STSprings, KYBStruts, Camber Plates, CustomAlternator
Traded for new set of tires for my wife's Buick: '87 TSI Gold that needs just about all steering and suspension parts replaced, injectors, a new transmission, clutch, and various electrical gremlins. New owner is a mechanic who is already driving it. I couldn't stand letting it sit any more!
'86 ESiR - OEM Roller Cam, Wiseco Forged 8:1 Pistons, Chad's equal length header, TEP T3/T4 turbo, ACT HD clutch, Fidanza Fly, custom 3" exhaust, 3 core oversized radiator, O-ringed block, AJUSA metal shim head gasket, Dawes Device boost controller
'85 Plymouth Conquest Auto , Wiseco 8:1, super light pins, shaved rods, hi-torque cam, 2.5 Exhaust
'84 Dodge Conquest Parts car
'83 Starion - Gutted stock exhaust with '87 TSi muffler, New engine with: BS Elim,forged Wisecos,balanced,Schneider274H,marnal w/oversized stainless valves
'83 Cannonball Run II Jackie Chan car, Basic ring and bearing job w/less than 6K original miles on body, steering, suspension, & rear end, Lightened stock fly, BS Elim, Walbro 255LPH FP, NEW Clearwater head with all new parts, intercooled, 14G turbo, 2750 car weight
'96 Mitsu Mirage w/rebuilt head. Gets 35+MPG.
'87 Dodge Ram50 4WD Rebuilt engine, fresh stock head, Weber carbed, BS elim. Runs great now!
'97 Buick Ultra (supercharged Park Avenue)

#83 psu_Crash

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 01:32 PM

View PostTim_C., on 21 May 2019 - 01:01 PM, said:

And that most likely, a roller cam will not set up correctly with stock length valves.

That's where the stainless #10 washers come in :)
I was running a new billet cam, without the reduced base circle and 1.55 magna rollers because that's what it was designed for. Someday I'll find some time to get the specs posted up here as well as pictures.
I'd love to hear your thoughts once you have all the info Tim!
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#84 Tim_C.

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 07:08 PM

Yes, the 1.55's are the Aussie roller rocker. So it makes sense they designed the cam for those. I would still compare the base to a stock slipper cam base.
I didn't see the specs on the cam you were running. I just know that a big cam must have a reduced base because there isn't room for the lobe to rotate in the head, and the rockers would be put at too large of an angle to work properly with .500+ lift and 280+ degrees of duration. With a roller tipped rocker, that amounts to a very tall and wide lobe tip. The head is designed for the lobes to dip into the puddle of oil in the head valley. And I was already hitting the valve cover too, so a big cam like that could never be used with the same base as stock. it would require a custom head and valve cover to work. Try to put a stock base circle with such a cam, and it will not properly clear the valley. Maybe yours was a stock Aussie roller cam base. It's been too long ago and I don't remember if that is smaller than our slipper cam. It wouldn't need to be, but in general, rollers have a smaller base in order to have the same rocker angle and the same clearance in the head lobe to valley that the slipper cams have. The slippers came first, so I assume the clearances were decided with it, and the roller followed with the same or higher requirement, not lower/closer.
Anyway, the Schneider 284 RH screams like mad from 3,000 - 7500+ RPM. And takes all of the boost you can give it. if RPW has anything even close to that, then it would require a reduced base that lifter shims won't make up for as well as a proper length valve. I used the shims to make up for the little bit my cams needed, but most of them weren't race cams with the need for a lot of spring pressure. 80 lbs of seat pressure was enough. So that is why I recommended the Schneider HD's. They were 100 lbs new so if they lost a little it wouldn't hurt anything. I also had tricks to get 110 from them. Then Phil came along and found they really can't hold up with the abuse of a racing application and he came up with the better beehives.

If I tried to use lifter shims with the Schneider, it would have required a custom made shim fit inside the rocker. Otherwise the spring pressure required would either break the washers or flatten out the curve of them to loosen up the fit. I preformed all of my shims with a curve to fit into the rocker better, but it still wasn't ideal and not good enough for big race ready roller cams. I sold a few race rollers with decent results (one to Chiplee) and sent shims with it, but I recommended they use proper length valves instead. I couldn't guarantee the shims would hold up to the demand of a 110+ lb spring. I just ensured it would work in the head and drove it for a little while in the CBRII car. That head had the year '84 and older, square groove valves which were .100 longer than the round groove ones post '84. In fact, all of my cams would work fine with the square groove valves. Every set-up is different, but I never saw or heard of any that used those valves and needed shims at all.
'87TSi .510Roller Cam, JE Forged, TS Rings & plateau honed walls, lightened rods, race prepped crank, mains line honed, balanced, 17C, 3"EX, 2"HardPipes, AlFly, rrfpr, 88trans, 3.90's w/posi plate mods, polyBushings, STSprings, KYBStruts, Camber Plates, CustomAlternator
Traded for new set of tires for my wife's Buick: '87 TSI Gold that needs just about all steering and suspension parts replaced, injectors, a new transmission, clutch, and various electrical gremlins. New owner is a mechanic who is already driving it. I couldn't stand letting it sit any more!
'86 ESiR - OEM Roller Cam, Wiseco Forged 8:1 Pistons, Chad's equal length header, TEP T3/T4 turbo, ACT HD clutch, Fidanza Fly, custom 3" exhaust, 3 core oversized radiator, O-ringed block, AJUSA metal shim head gasket, Dawes Device boost controller
'85 Plymouth Conquest Auto , Wiseco 8:1, super light pins, shaved rods, hi-torque cam, 2.5 Exhaust
'84 Dodge Conquest Parts car
'83 Starion - Gutted stock exhaust with '87 TSi muffler, New engine with: BS Elim,forged Wisecos,balanced,Schneider274H,marnal w/oversized stainless valves
'83 Cannonball Run II Jackie Chan car, Basic ring and bearing job w/less than 6K original miles on body, steering, suspension, & rear end, Lightened stock fly, BS Elim, Walbro 255LPH FP, NEW Clearwater head with all new parts, intercooled, 14G turbo, 2750 car weight
'96 Mitsu Mirage w/rebuilt head. Gets 35+MPG.
'87 Dodge Ram50 4WD Rebuilt engine, fresh stock head, Weber carbed, BS elim. Runs great now!
'97 Buick Ultra (supercharged Park Avenue)

#85 Tim_C.

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 07:35 PM

As for valves not closing, it is the same measurements that need taken, just a different action is required to gain the proper preload to allow the valve to close. They simply had too much preload that needed reduced instead of not enough that required increase in preload.

Even stock set-ups when rebuilt, can require action taken. In fact we determined that factory preload really wasn't sufficient. So I took some kind of action to increase preload on them. Or run a mechanical lash for slipper set-ups.
With all of the different heads out there, about 5 different OEM stock ones not including the Aussie heads, and just as many or more aftermarket ones, we found that few of them had the same exact measurements for valve height, cam caps / cam bosses, valleys, oil galleys, and just about anything else about them except for manifold bolt / stud hole placements. We have the Clearwater, the Spanish Marnel, the India Marnel, and several others with several differences to deal with.

So I guess my point is that even someone with a lot of knowledge, tooling, and time to test all of this stuff for a non-existent market, still only sees the tiny picture in front of him at the time. So any comments must be made accordingly with as many variables listed as possible. Kev is as good as it gets for such a person, and does very well to report the facts as he finds them on the combination of parts in front of him.
'87TSi .510Roller Cam, JE Forged, TS Rings & plateau honed walls, lightened rods, race prepped crank, mains line honed, balanced, 17C, 3"EX, 2"HardPipes, AlFly, rrfpr, 88trans, 3.90's w/posi plate mods, polyBushings, STSprings, KYBStruts, Camber Plates, CustomAlternator
Traded for new set of tires for my wife's Buick: '87 TSI Gold that needs just about all steering and suspension parts replaced, injectors, a new transmission, clutch, and various electrical gremlins. New owner is a mechanic who is already driving it. I couldn't stand letting it sit any more!
'86 ESiR - OEM Roller Cam, Wiseco Forged 8:1 Pistons, Chad's equal length header, TEP T3/T4 turbo, ACT HD clutch, Fidanza Fly, custom 3" exhaust, 3 core oversized radiator, O-ringed block, AJUSA metal shim head gasket, Dawes Device boost controller
'85 Plymouth Conquest Auto , Wiseco 8:1, super light pins, shaved rods, hi-torque cam, 2.5 Exhaust
'84 Dodge Conquest Parts car
'83 Starion - Gutted stock exhaust with '87 TSi muffler, New engine with: BS Elim,forged Wisecos,balanced,Schneider274H,marnal w/oversized stainless valves
'83 Cannonball Run II Jackie Chan car, Basic ring and bearing job w/less than 6K original miles on body, steering, suspension, & rear end, Lightened stock fly, BS Elim, Walbro 255LPH FP, NEW Clearwater head with all new parts, intercooled, 14G turbo, 2750 car weight
'96 Mitsu Mirage w/rebuilt head. Gets 35+MPG.
'87 Dodge Ram50 4WD Rebuilt engine, fresh stock head, Weber carbed, BS elim. Runs great now!
'97 Buick Ultra (supercharged Park Avenue)




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