Tim_C.

Yeah, Tony Waldrop says he has a Crane Crank(I think Crane), that is stroked to 2.8L. Crane rods too, so the very light rods would help longevity with that crank theoretically. 7Lbs on the flywheel may be pushing the strength factor, but if you know what you are doing.....? I'd go 8:1 CR. We can do a hydraulic roller version of the hi-torque bottom end cam. The upper RPM power range will be limited to around 5,000RPM. It will be the biggest torque monster of any S/Q up to that point. The usable RPM power range will be beyond that, but it will start dropping off right about there. Spool? It will help spool more than any other cam. Traction will be your major challenge to overcome.

The smaller the wheel, the less accurate it is. I ordered the import wheel from Summit, just in case I wanted to dial mine in. The wheel is a joke in my opinion, but small enough to get on the engine while in the car. I would send it back, but I'd get like $12 back for it, so I kept it. I didn't end up checking mine only because I had to get the car out of the shop bay as fast as possible. (Downside to using someone else's business shop). Does the factory manual tell where to degree the intake lobe to on the stock cam?

Yeah, I couldn't tell by looking. I had 2 different shops look it up for me. One shop bored the block, and when I took it to another shop for a line hone of the mains, he asked if I wanted a micro hone put on my bores, so the TS rings would seat right away. I said sure, and then explained to him what we did with the bore. At first he was looking up the metric specs, and said that we screwed up. I then realized he was misunderstanding, and told him it was English specs. He ran the numbers, and confirmed them to be right. Measured the walls, and said, "yep, you guys are right". Then he found that my other machinist came in at the top with the bore, more than this guy liked, so he evened that out a little for me too. So it was a good thing we chose to micro hone it. He said what the other guy did was fine, but not as much as he did. I haven't had any problems yet.

Step one: Open hood. 2. Remove the negative battery cable. You don't want to take the starter out with the battery hooked up. Then follow Jimmy's steps. Don' t forget the speedo cable, and wires to tranny. Those are a pain if you forget & try to lower the tranny while they are still hooked up. The pain is getting them removed while the tans is half in & half out. You should also support the engine, so it doesn't tilt all the way backwards when you pull the rear trans mount/crossmember.

You are talking valvesprings right? The 100#@1.625" one is like a dual coil. The rest are way too big, unless I'm reading the spec wrong?

Yes, the .5mm oversized ones will work with the roller cam. Really, either valve length will work fine. I will be sending out instructions with the cams.

Well, the SST one is a multi-layer type. That is what gives it the proper crush characteristic. If it were one piece thick, then your theory would ring true. I have only had one problem with the Fel-Pro. I did blow one out from over 14K miles of leaning out. The head had stud problems, and the manifold was not web cut. So it was a combination of things that gave the gasket no chance. Of course I've never run over 12 PSI boost consistently over time, so my testing is limited that way. However, I have reused the Fel-Pro gasket off an engine that melted pistons! It sealed fine the second go round. I don't recommend doing that though. I inspected it to be near new condition before I used it. As for how long it will last under hi-heat conditions? Well, it doesn't look like it would do too well IMHO. Copper: I don't know much about the heat expansion of it, or strength of it. We should get the person running the GP to explain some about it's advantages?

We should probably not use Mike's combination as an example of what pistons to order. Only because his head is milled 3 times, and deck once. I wonder what the milling each time was? Mine was only .007 this time to clean it up, but .020 a time before on another head. That can really change things. But, the bigger Marnal chamber does change things acros the board for everyone, so there is a good chance that 8.5 pistons will be closer to 8:1.

Very, very interesting. So, it was even less compression before, when you had the dyno incident? That is cool stuff. I wouldn't have guessed that ever. That's why measuring is the only way to know? I was not aware that the Marnal had a bigger cc chamber? I will have my machinist check my Marnal against stock for a raw to raw comparison. I'd like to know the difference. I am going to live at the machine shop for a while again! He He! ;D

Thanks Rob. Yeah, I know it is primitive, and not as reliable as the wide band. At least it is a heated 3-wire on a calibrated AF Monitor. I also have a DVM for the exact voltage. Still nothing compared to the wide band. That's sweet. I'm also a slacker, and don't have an EGT. Man, cash must grow on trees for some of us?! I aint quite ready for the fancy stuff, so I am not ready to raise the boost past 12 or so max, until then. The cams are ready! Are you on my list? If so, you got mail!He He! ;D I think you are, and I will check right now.

Well, since the bottom end on my '85 did not hold up to the fresh top end, I took time to install the Cartech style, Bell RRFPR on my '87. I piggy backed it behind the BCFPR, so it looks like a fuel system cluster! The reason I did that is because I have an off boost lean spot from all the air flow going thru this thing. Big bore, big cam, hardpipes, and 1st Gen MAS, etc.., etc... You guys know the crazy stuff on it. The RRFPR I got from Scott Lambson, did not have the baseline FP adjustment, so I kept the BCFPR to be able to bringup the baseline, to cover the off boost lean spot. I have the baseline at 48PSI Well, it gives me enough fuel, barely, for 10-12 PSI boost max. I don't think I could go higher than that w/o added injectors, which are in the works with a 50mm TB for kev. The performance increase is phoenominal! Man, I have more power than ever, and I can sustain it. One big problem: Where can a guy open his car up to test things like this? I have no idea why I went so crazy with this build, because by the time I open it up in third, it's pushing past 100MPH! With the rest of 3rd gear, & 2 more gears to go! Well, I built it for passing power, so I guess I have that? ;D The RRFPR will increase fuel 3:1 max I believe, and it is about 2:1 now, and barely enough, with the yellow light on the Dawes AF Monitor. Most people go to the green light for insurance, so I'll tweak it a little further (not much more to go!).

Well, that's good. I like that ratio for big boost, so I think you will have a very good combo. That thing should run 11's when you're done! He He!

Yep, I must say I was very hard on Rich at first, but he withstood the onslaught of my harshness. I would like to publicly apologize to him, and say I was overly protective of the club toward him at first. He has dealt very admirably with me, and I could not have asked for a better guy to deal with. I got my head very fast, like 3 days after the shipments started. One of those days was a Sunday I believe. He did a great job pulling off the Marnal Head GP, and our communication is still proving to be of great benefit to my endeavor to learn more about our cars. Hats off to ya Rich!

Well, I talked with him today. His phone was beeping the whole time, he had 3 customers there with him, and he was standing in front of the grinder, with a cam being ground! He had a guy there helping him too. He also had a book within reach of his cams. I will PM you Mike. My time with him was brief, and I haven't got your flow specs to him. He says he mostly sells the N/A version of that cam to roundy racers, and some road trackers. We discussed how to do business on getting these cams out. He wants me to distribute them, but I will keep his name on the cams. He has a very fancy etch he puts on the end. It will be that you can order from him, but the price will be higher than what I will offer them for. So, he can still sell the cams to people who hear about him through me, but they will pay more through him. Sounds easy enough, but there are a couple of complications. Since I'm not out to make much, I think it will work. He does nothing but grind cams, so all other related items will need my involvement, unless a cam is all a guy needs? I am sharing all my info with him, like I am doing with all of us here, so most of us can get a cam, and figure out the rest. However, I have found that a lot of people want a kit type set-up, and even complete heads. And every possibility in between, like some want cam & rockers, but they have springs, and lifters? The discussion will conclude next week for me to get the ball rolling. I have already opened my mouth to say I am getting cams ordered, so it will happen soon.

You may be referring to Tyrell? It was .175 I think on his, but I don't know that application. I think he goes by IsTurbo? or something like that. Anyway, yes, I have the .075" overbore. Stock replacement pistons only go up to .060 over, and not many forged even go that far. .075 over on the Mitsu 2.6L is the exact same size as a Toyota 22R @ .030 over. So, you can order that sized Mitsu piston, and rings for the 22R application, and they will work on a .075 bore. It really just made the rings easy to come by.

No, I got the Mr. Gasket Bushing kit for Chevy & BB Mopar. It comes with a 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, degree bushings to choose from. There's a thread on it in this forum.

Well, the rod length has nothing to do with stroke. A 1" long rod will go up & down the same amount of stroke as a 10" long rod. Right? My machinist told me the only way to change stroke is to move the rod journal, relative to the center of the crankshaft. Or do you mean as a general rule, long stoke motors have shorter rods? So, now I'm very confused if I wasn't before! Except you both agree that advancing is what to try first, just for different reasons? John: I advanced it because all of the wear factors of the chain, and head planing, will retard it. So, to make up for that, I wanted to advance it some. Plus, several good sources say the factory set them retarded slightly for whatever reason? They are never where the factory says supposedly? I should have dialed it in, but I didn't have all the stuff to do it yet, so I went with the 4 degree one.

kev: Stock valves, hydraulic lengths as in all the hydraulic heads. Hyd rocker shafts to feed oil to the lifter. I wanted to make sure we could all just do the slap city thing, with no issues, so I did nothing fancy, including not cutting into the seats very far at all. Well, the seat height anyway. We bull-hogged the top side crazily! Â 8)The head was a never before rebuilt one. We did the mentioned work, but did not cut the seats further than needed. Doing that would have customized the preload, and would work without the washers, but I was thinking of you all. Isn't that special?!! Â ;D I wanted to make sure it worked on a plain jane stock set-up, so everyone from stockers to head builders (people gooing thru their heads, or building up new ones)could set it up easily. I've heard aftermarket cam suppliers telling guys on here that they didn't cut the seats far enough to preload the lifter. That's bull especially on a supposed NEW camshaft. You can do that on this set-up to negate the need for the washers, but why? That means a future build to the head will need new seats maybe? Kind of like boring a block .060 over, when it only needs a hone job. Anyway, the ticket would be to use the '83 mech valves. Then there would be no washers or seat grinding needed. Even on old rockers, the longer mech valves would work with no mods needed to preload the lifters. Chip: Good news & bad news. The good news is your cam is not a roller, so the duration will be decreased, allowing less chance to hit the pistons. The bad news is the cam is a .292! Don't know for sure if the decrease will be enough? Kelly just PM'd me on a similar deal, but his cam was not as big. Multiply your cam lift X 1.6 to see what you come up with? Over .500? Can you say witness mark again? Â You can get it all on there, and turn the engine over by hand. Watch the valvespring on #1 INT when you know the piston is coming up. Does the valve start to close before the piston gets there? Then most likely it is fine. So close you really can't tell? Did you notch the pistons that time? If so, then you should be fine. It was obvious on my bolt-on roller that the valve was closing well before the piston got there. You watch the mark on the crank too, so you know where the piston is. I think the narrow lobe summit on the slip rocker cam will allow the use of the rockers, but I can't say for sure. Same answer I gave Kelly pretty much.

Well all, I figure it is now time to let everyone know what I've been doing to get the lifters preloaded enough to run the reduced base circle roller cams. I did the obvious. I have precurved, stainless steel washers inside the rockers, above the lifter. They oil fine, and so far the only issue was, I tried a washer that was a little too small in diameter first. It moved around on the top of the lifter, but did no damage. Now I have a larger dia washer in there, so it will not move around as easy. The rocker is curved up in there, so I took flat stainless #6 washers, .045 thickness (they vary, but I weeded out to be all the same), and I put them inside an old junk rocker that is in a vice upside down. I centered the washers, and then carefully dropped in an old stuck lifter, and smacked that baby with a small hammer. Presto, a cone shaped washer that fits very well inside the rocker, above the lifter. This is how I'm preloading the lifters, and this is how you can save an old set of rockers & lifters that tick. The ticking will go away with this mod. I've got over 1K miles on the 2 experiments combined, and am ready to sell the cams if the majority agrees it is worth a try for them too? Or, I can run my roller cam for a few years to verify long life, on a performance design? It really doesn't matter to me. I have my 2 roller cam set-ups, and this one was about $1800 cheaper than the first! The first cam set-up came with no garantees due to it's performance nature, and obvious abusive hi-revs it will get. I won't offer a garantee either, only because the variables are too great. I won't know if people follow my recommendations or not, as far as valvesprings, new lifters, etc.... Schneider does not guarantee their cams, but they have been known to replace them for cost when someone's set-up doesn't work. Not every time, but they have done that with chiplee. Anyway, there it is. Any help as to how I can best get roller cams into the hands of the StarQuest enthusiasts, let me know. I'll take whatever abusive criticism anyone wants to give. I'll answer any & all questions to the best of my ability, and may need help on issues that I have overlooked? Help me out on this please. I do already have the approval of the cam grinder(of course, he wants to sell cams!), my machinist, & the rocker arm specialist guy said the idea was worth a try. So, as long as it holds together, to which it has no choice, being up inside the rocker, unlike lashcaps, this should be a go. Thanks, Tim C.

Thanks Mark_T. I'll try that.

Got my Postal MO for $39.25 sent off today.

Thanks Joel, I will try bumping it 4 degrees, and if it is too much, I'll back off 2. Thanks again, Tim C.

Yeah, I have an old 2.6L head that has the long valves, square kepers, and different spring retainers. That head has the short adjuster screws. The head is junk, but those parts are good. I would like to see the pic comparison of springs. I have yet another variation of spring that James CNM called dual coils. They aren't dual coils. They just have a dampner, like Toyota springs, so we think that may be what they are? The unsprung height being different is fine. If a valve job was done before, then the install height will change unless you use shims. The best way to know if you need to change the install height, is to measure where it ends up, and then load test the spring at that height. My HD's were about 84 lbs at 1.62 install height (.02 higher than stock), so we left it right there. We could have shimmed it to be more, but the cam really doesn't need more. My CNM "dual coils" on my '87 are 110, so they are still pretty good. If you have an accrate weigh scale, and a press, you can compress the spring on top of the scale to see where it ends up at. We did mine one made for valvesprings. My stock ones at 76K miles were 70Lbs. Stock new is 72, so that's pretty close. The stock springs seem to rapidly decline in strength after 90K miles.

Chip: Here's some more music; You were not going crazy about the mechanical valves being the same length, if I remember you found issues & never got to the bottom of it. Well, my '85 had stock mechanical rocker shafts, & the whole works. Guess what? The valves are identical to the hydraulic in every way. What was different? The length of the adjuster stud! Like you had run across seeing. So, either in '84 or '85 they went with the same valves as hydraulics, but went to the longer stud. I think the only long valves are the '83's. Maybe you already figured all this out? I have that '84 now, and can check it to see what valves, and studs are in it. Chad: The pressure is pretty much the same, but just gets there quick. I know, I know, I'm kidding myself with the factory gauge. I'll get a real one on there. The vibration is closer to 3800-4200 @WOT, so that sounds right. Mike:I'll copy your specs down, and see what we can come up with. If you are talking roller mechanical, then it may be a while. We are making some rocker fitments that will go into the hydraulic hole, and be able to adjust them. they will fit inside the VC too. As soon as we get that going, then we can grind a roller mechanical for it. Otherwise, I will see what we can do on a solid slip rocker cam for ya. A roller mechanical will be the top dog cam for these cars, but will require more frequent adjustments if it is very radical? So far, the only leak was the fuel pump block-off plate! Fixed it. I need to get some good oil in it to take it up past 5K RPM I still haven't done that. I put cheap oil in it, just in case there was a major problem. The car just jumps to life around 2400. Timing @ 10 Degrees. I haven't played with that yet. Not sure which way to try first, advancing, or retarding? It definitely pulls harder. It is still doggy off the line under normal driving around town, but better than before. The TPS/ISC has been reset, but I could not get any voltage from the motor position sensor? The car still hunts slightly, and wants to die at idle once in a while? It was doing that before, and I hoped it was the head problems making it do that. I got the .9 volts there before? That has me a little stumped, but if I can't get voltage there, then I'll look for another '85 ISC. I have a couple of other FYI's up my sleeve, but will wait for further testing, before I open my mouth! One has to do with the TEP Metal shim gasket. (hint) You guys know what I did don't ya!? ;D

Changes on car since last head was on it: BS Elim. Cam Gear advanced 4 degrees (that means 8 on the crank!). Rebuilt head with pocket porting, & 5 angle valve job. New 195 Robert Shaw Gen III T-Stat. I stayed with stock temp since I wanted to minimize the changes that would affect the management, to an extent, and the heater works great with it! I have the manual fan, and cooling is not an issue. New water pump. Rodded 2 row radiator. It was flowing very slowly, so I got it rodded for $70. Oil pump relief valve experiment. I put a washer in there to stiffen it up. Oil galley size increase. I used a Dremel die grinder bit to grind a small groove on the head's oil feed hole to oil the rocker shaft assembly with more volume. Just on the head surface itself where the block hole feeds oil via the headgasket to the head hole. New belts. The original factory belts were all still on it from '85. They were all cracked severely, but not worn too bad. I have them now for emergency spares. BTW: Don't ever replace belts with Auto-Zone Kelly Springfield belts. They will stretch like rubber bands, and slip/squeal, no matter how tight you get them. Checker belts are the same too. I got Gates belts from Parts Plus, but NAPA carries good belts too. There are other good belts, like the Goodyear belts at Auto Zone. I'm talking V-Groove belts only. Serpentine is a different story. Kelly Springfield ones are fine for that. New lifters. I also did another mod to the preload experiment, for more preload. Brazed 2 cracks in the exhaust manifold, one of which was leaking slightly. Fixed a gasket leak at the turbo to DP. Cut the webs on the manifold. Helicoiled studs on exhaust manifold side. I put the entire head on, with the manifolds & turbo/TB attatched, by myself! It was actually very easy, and can be done by just about anybody. I actually stood on the frame in front of the engine. I had a blanket over the radiator support, and a piece of plywood there with the assembly on it. I climbed in (after making very sure all protrusions were tied up out of the way, and then lifted the assembly up & concentrated on lowering it down over the cam gear/chain that was resting on the little shelf. It was cake. I'm not that strong, so I am confident that just about anyone can do it. Initial Phase 3 results: More power. Wider range. However, I have not taken it over 5K RPM yet, since I have less than 20 miles on it so far. It comes on sooner, but there were 3 things I did that would help that, so I don't know how much to attribute to each? RPM gains a tad faster, i.e., it revs faster. Vibration issue: Well, there is a vibration over a certain RPM spread. Normal accelleration, the vibe is 2900-3100. Yes, it is certainly a noticable vibration. It is slighly worse under harder accel, and the RPM spread it vibrates at is wider, & higher, the harder the accel is. I was in it fairly hard, like 3/4 throttle, and the vibe was 3400-3800 or so. I can tolerate it, but I can see why some people don't like it. I feel a lot better with the shafts out, and all the gains are well worth it in my opinon. Oil pressure: It is the same surprisingly, but it comes up faster, & holds the pressure a little longer when I let off the gas. I will see how things work out, and keep ya informed. Thanks