Maft translator pro on tbi?

[TSirocket]

Is anyone using a maft trans pro with tbi??

 

http://www.maftpro.com/tproinfo.shtml

 

TRE put down 650ish hp with 4g63 with it?? Seems pretty simple and ive heard great things about it in the dsm community. Its a PID controller which will ensure your desired a/f ratio regardless of outside temp or boost... you can get desired a/f in -40 thru 120 F... anywho couldnt you run 2 secondaries and this controller to get desired fuel??

[Blind_Drifter]

Search around. Defenetily an upgrade people have been using. Dont think I've seen over 300 though.....

[emagdnim]

No, you can't do it.. thats way too new school for TBi... :wink:

 

haha, seriously, as long as you don't tune your car to 16:1 under full boost like a few people have with the set-up you'll be fine.

 

You'll want to get a wideband and a SAFC for fine tuning as well.

 

Technically, you can run a 2G DSM mass with 2 secondary's with a way to tune the car (SAFC... or others) and safely run some good boost, (I had a 20G on the car as well)

 

So, either way you'll be fine... buy it!

[TSirocket]

The gen 2 shouldnt need an s-afc... matter of fact it has better range and the pro even allows for timing adj.. check the link this isnt ongreens maft translator.. its the Maft PRO 400$ for the controller +gm mas + lc1 wideband... mas gives controller a signal-wideband tracks a/f.... if your not getting YOUR desired (predetermined a/f at 3 different load settings) the closed loop pid controller will auto adjust fuel to get desired a/f ratios. since every tbi quest runs rich this seems to be the best bet?? Its a fancy PID (proportional-integral-derivative) controller your not getting any better than that for convience (unless a standalone im not aware of will track a/f values and give you what you demand)... in theory you could start a maft gen 2 piggybacked car @120 deg. F one day and -40 the next and get your desired air/fuel ratios... and to mix it up some more you can also change boost settings w/no change to the controller.. its smartlogic.... i already searched and no one i found is using the GEN2 or PRO

 

on second note im not saying this is going to be a miracle cure its just an option i havent seen anyone take. If I had better than a part-time job and 21cr/hrs of college id have cash to try it myself. But their will be plenty of time to play once i graduate in May. Any further information is greatly appriciated

 

 

 

 

MAF TRANSLATOR PRO FEATURES:

 

Triple Threat Tuning:

Air/Fuel Computer mode: This mode works extremely well for tuning all types of vehicles and is used to modify the airflow signal to tune the vehicle. The airflow sensor signal from the MAF or MAP sensor are tuned via the Translator Pro's sophisticated 3D mapping algorithm allowing full tunability using the front panel keypad or Windows PC using the provided software. There are 12 rpm points and 3 different load tables, all adjustable in 1/2% increments. This means more precise tuning than competitive products!

 

MAF Translator Mode: Llets you replace a restrictive or failing MAF system with another style or size of sensor. We have built in calibrations for popular and highly accurate GM MAF sensors up to 85mm that will now work on any car originally equipped with a MAF sensor. Reducing MAF sensor restriction by upgrading the MAF dramatically improves turbo spool time and horsepower and sensor range.

 

Speed Density Mode: Is the ultimate in bolt-on tuning mods! The Translator Pro performs a true speed density calculation to determine engine airflow, allowing the user to remove the MAF sensor and use a GM 3 or our 5 bar MAP sensor. Allowing tuning by RPM and boost, the Translator Pro is pre-configured with base maps for most popular applications to get the user up and running quickly, just select the base map, injector size, and go!

 

Basic Adjustment Modes:

Here is a basic overview of some of the things you can do with the Translator Pro. There are many more adjustments and options not listed here yet, watch this site for future updates that will be added soon.

 

Setup:

Mainscale: adjusts the entire range by the same %

V-Out1 set: Setpoint for V-Out1

V-Out2 set: Setpoint for V-Out2

Afterstart: Enrichment for the first few minutes of engine run time

Lo Load Pt: KPA for the Lo Load User tunes

Mid Load Pt: KPA for the Mid Load User tunes

Hi Load Pt: KPA for the Hi Load User tunes

 

Boost Control:

TPS Spool - TPS voltage to enable boost system, during Spool solenoid is on 100%

RPM Spool - RPM to enable boost system, during Spool solenoid is on 100%

TPS Start - TPS voltage above which the system controls the boost psi

PSI Start - Boost psi where the system switches from spool (100%) to DC% start

DC% Start - Solenoid DutyCycle that is used once the boost exceeded the Start PSI

PSI Set - Desired boost

PSI Aux - desired boost when the Aux Trigger input is energized

Gain - the speed that the Dutycycle will be adjusted to maintain the desired boost.

 

WOT AFR Tracking:

Min TPS - TPS above which the AFR tracking is enabled

Min RPM - RPM above which the AFR tracking is enabled

Min MAP - Manifold pressure above which AFR tracking is enabled

Lean Lim% - The maximum % that the system will lean out to maintain the desired A/F

Rich Lim% - The maximum % that the system will richen up to maintain the desired A/F

Gain - The speed that the system will try to maintain the desired A/F ratio

AFR 2000R ... AFR 8000R Desired A/F Ratio at each RPM from 2000 RPM to 8000

 

Air Temp:

Air temp correction, setting is added to the regular system tune value. Note this adjustment is in addition to the Speed Density algorithm's temperature compensation. Additional adjustment can be required to adjust for atomization characteristics of injectors, or heat-soak conditions.

 

Aux Triggered:

At each RPM point, the set tune percent is added to the system tune when the Aux Trigger input is energized. The desired AFR tracking value is modified as well so the AFR tracking will change by the Aux Trig setting.

 

Tuning modes:

RPM Table Choices for Fuel and Spark tuning:

400, 800, 1200, 1600, 2200, 2800, 3400, 4000, 4600, 5200, 5800, 6400, 7000, 7600

 

Spark timing Low load (idle, cruise)

Spark timing High load (high load, WOT)

Spark timing only available for certain application and additional software may be needed

 

Fuel Tune Low (idle)

Fuel Tune Mid (cruise)

Fuel Tune High (WOT)

Adjustable + or - 64% in ½% steps according to RPM table in each load point

 

Boost control with base boost gain TPS threshold and RPM point setting for total boost control in turbo applications. Needs new GM boost solenoid

 

User tune values, load points are determined in the Setup page. These settings are blended between RPM and load points and added to the System Scale, Air Temp, and Aux Trigger settings.

 

Tune Response:

TPS1 - Amount of enrichment that occurs on a throttle transition ("tip-in").

TPS2 - Rate that the TPS enrichment is applied and removed.

TPS3 - not used

TPS4 - not used

MAP1 - Amount of enrichment that occurs on a positive MAP sensor change ("tip-in").

MAP2 - Rate that the MAP enrichment is applied and removed

 

Sensor Monitor & Datalogger:

The Sensor monitor page is used to view various sensor and signal values. Each button toggles one of the 4 viewed valuse through the following list.

 

RPM - Engine RPM

MP - Manifold presure (KPA)

DC - Density Compensation (Speed Density Airtemp correction factor)

AFL - AirFlow, Speed Density calculated Grams/Sec

AFI - Airflow Input, If a MAF is connected.

VE - Volumetric Efficiency, from the Speed Density algorithm

FI - Frequency input value

FO - Frequency output value

UT - User Tune. Combined System Scale, AF Tune, Airtemp, and Triggered adjustments

TPS - TPS sensor value

BD - Boost Dutycycle

MT - Manifold Temperature

O2 - Voltage reading on O2 sensor input

FE - Flow Error. If a MAF is conected, this is the % dif, MAF and Speed Density

ASC - Afterstart correction

AFR - A/F Ratio, if a wideband is connected.

CF - Wideband tracking Correction Factor

TAF - Target A/F Ratio

[Technology]

That is overkill for the TBI. are you going to make 600 with the TBI? no.

 

Sorry. You might make 300 with a decent garrett turbo and regular maf translator + safc and dyno time with a wideband.

 

upgrade the intercooler if you plan on 300 hp. It'll just make it easier.

 

pretty easy formula: 5 things.

[TSirocket]

300whp with tbi is next to a miracle from god himself. I am an extreme 4g63 enthusiast if i want 300+hp ill put a big 16g on my talon. Overkill... how is FIP any better and it wont be nearly as user friendly? +stock throttle body being so small creates a high port velocity thus increasing torque, which is what the 2.6 is all about. This is really not for my gain as i have a 4g63 that needs rebuilt and a trans for my conquest. this is for those of you who want decent power and dont want the hassle of mpi. I have 4friends with 2.6L starquest-raiderturbo and its more for them. The maft trans pro from what we have all read and reviewed is a better option than the FIP, but what an avertisement says and what actually happens is 2 dif. things. I reviewed the instructions and the gen 2 seems very technical (for 4g63t i built. no one in my area will mess with 4g63. i built it broke it broke it in and gave it to my friend. (didnt have time to wire translator, test and tune, id prefer dyno, and complete my degree all at once 21cr and being owner of quest-awd talon keeps me plenty busy.)

 

Just trying to give back to the community

[Technology]

I see. I know all about 20 credits and quest ownership. lol. Good luck with school and the quest. I guess if you try it, it only adds to the pool of knowledge!

[JustPaus_88TSi]

A good amount of the FIP's allure is the replacement of the expensive 20 year old injectors. At least that's one major reason I went with it, I didn't want to struggle to find good used injectors, or even outrageously priced new units.

 

 

Both systems have their setbacks, and saying one is superior over the other when you haven't used either one on a SQ is getting a bit ahead of yourself. Don't you think?

 

 

The Maft-Pro does sound good though. And in the speed density mode, I could essentially piggy back this onto my FIP for even finer tuning.. Interesting.. Could still be used like that when I go MPI with the same FIP controller..

[chrisviper]

I'm going to be doing this install on a Starion very soon. I used the emanage ultimate to eliminate the MAF on my car, and with some engine work was able to make 330 ish at the wheels. My car would not make this power without the head and cam work, but more importantly, there is no way you can stay in the safe afr range at that boost level , even with two secondary injectors, without additional fueling. On my car, I used an extra secondary injector, driven by the emanage, and I was still close to the limit when tuning to around a 11 to 1 afr.

 

I've used the MAF translator pro on an evo, and I liked how it worked. Besides all of the previously mentioned features, I really liked how you could fully map and log with the laptop, but also have the convenience of adjusting most of the parameters with the hand held piece.

 

My car, with the cam that I had, did not like to idle smooth in closed loop at 14.7 to 1, and needed even more enrichment when it was cold. With a afr at low engine speeds of 13 to 1, I could get a smooth stable idle. The emanage does have closed loop control, but works only when you are adjusting the pulse width directly, which I could not get to work due to the non ignition synchronized firing of the fuel injectors. Because of this I just ran my car in open loop all the time. Now with the MAF pro, you can run a closed loop target afr, with a correction that adjusts the maf output, so I would think this would work well with the starion.

 

One thing I never see anyone talk about, is how much the starion and 1 g mas sensors break up at high air flows. I must have tried five or six different mass air flow meters with varying results, but all of them would go haywire when the car would make over 220-240 whp. The mas air flow signal would become erratic and trend downwards, causing the afr to lean.

This is what made me decide to eliminate the mas altogether. Additionally, why run a gm mass air flow meter, when it much simpler and cheaper to run a map sensor with the maf translator pro ?

 

I do agree with some that the starion fuel injection system is very old, but, those guys at mitusbishi spent a lot of time and money engineering it to provide nice cold start, economy, and driveability . Nothing against the fuel injection pro setup, but I believe when you run that system, you loose some of that, and you also loose idle motor control. With the factory system in decent shape, if tuned correctly, you should be able to start and go, with no driveability issues.

 

The only problem that I can think of with the maf translator pro, is that it does not have the ability to drive additional injectors. What I plan to do on this car that I'm installing it on, is to add a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, to increase the effective flow of the fuel injectors. I figure, that as long as the fuel injectors don't have leaking issues, this should work very well.

 

- Chris

[Technology]

I would think a regular maft setup with GM mass air sensor would be cheaper than maft pro plus a map sensor. I thought the pro was more expensive.

 

Anyway, a normal maft setup plus an safc2 or similar would be great for upsized injectors (like ford racing 1600cc ones). That's what I'd like to do to my next quest (whenever that might be). At that point if you just add a nice sized garrett t3 or small t3/t4 and a decent intercooler, I don't see why you couldn't go higher than what you got.

[chrisviper]

I would think a regular maft setup with GM mass air sensor would be cheaper than maft pro plus a map sensor. I thought the pro was more expensive.

 

Anyway, a normal maft setup plus an safc2 or similar would be great for upsized injectors (like ford racing 1600cc ones). That's what I'd like to do to my next quest (whenever that might be). At that point if you just add a nice sized garrett t3 or small t3/t4 and a decent intercooler, I don't see why you couldn't go higher than what you got.

 

Yes the maf pro is more expensive , about two hundred dollars more expensive, but you can't "map" the maf translator, and you can't convert to speed density, there is no closed loop wb tracking, no data logging, no boost control, etc. Additionally, you have to plumb the air flow meter , and purchase a air flow meter and what ever parts are needed to make it fit.

That being said, I don't even think that there is much price difference between the two, probably less than one hundred dollars after you add all that up.

 

The last time I checked, the safc was a signal calibrator that did NOT reference load, only throttle position and rpm. This may work ok on a normally aspirated car, but imo, it is the worst possible tuning device you could put on a turbo vehicle. The turbo cars that I've seen come into our shop with these devices have had completely nonlinear afr's that would swing from very rich to dangerously lean. Does this make sense do you technology ? Additionally, I will not run those non starion injectors in the mixer body. I know people are doing it, but have you ever looked at a starion injector spray compared to a standard fuel injector ? The starion injector does not spray, as much as it fogs the fuel, and most high flow injectors i've seen don't really spray, as much as they squirt. With that in mind, I would rather be safe than sorry when pushing the limits of the mitsubishi tbi fuel system.

 

I really hope someone does make more power than my old beater, and you know, I thought by now that someone would have. As a good mentor once said to me "some day I want you to better than me." So the more power to you, this is fun stuff for me and I feel everyone involved with these cars.

[Technology]

Yes the maf pro is more expensive , about two hundred dollars more expensive, but you can't "map" the maf translator, and you can't convert to speed density, there is no closed loop wb tracking, no data logging, no boost control, etc. Additionally, you have to plumb the air flow meter , and purchase a air flow meter and what ever parts are needed to make it fit.

That being said, I don't even think that there is much price difference between the two, probably less than one hundred dollars after you add all that up.

Well, if you are tuning a car on a dyno with a wideband, you don't need any on-board mapping of wideband or other data, since you are getting it tuned once and driving it like that untill you get some other part that you need to retune your car to use.

 

There are plenty of high HP cars with a GM maf plus a translator out there. Why is speed density the "only way to go" for you? By the way, you can get a scrap 3" mandrel bend and some adaptors for less than 50 bucks.

 

The last time I checked, the safc was a signal calibrator that did NOT reference load, only throttle position and rpm. This may work ok on a normally aspirated car, but imo, it is the worst possible tuning device you could put on a turbo vehicle. The turbo cars that I've seen come into our shop with these devices have had completely nonlinear afr's that would swing from very rich to dangerously lean.

Last time I checked, there wasn't anything besides a DYNO that referenced load. an SAFC reads airflow, throttle position, and rpm. It allows you to change what the ECU sees, keeping it within the limits for the ecu, even if you go above (via larger injectors, higher flowing mass air sensor) normal levels.

 

If you had cars with safc's on them and put them on the dyno and AF curves were all over the place, then there was something wrong, either in the calibration of the tuning device, or something else on the car. Or maybe you can post some of those graphs with that Swinging AFR. did they swing around under load on the dyno?

 

Does this make sense do you technology ?

I'm not an idiot, don't you ever assume otherwise.

 

Additionally, I will not run those non starion injectors in the mixer body. I know people are doing it, but have you ever looked at a starion injector spray compared to a standard fuel injector ? The starion injector does not spray, as much as it fogs the fuel, and most high flow injectors i've seen don't really spray, as much as they squirt. With that in mind, I would rather be safe than sorry when pushing the limits of the mitsubishi tbi fuel system.

Umm, there are different styles and designs of fuel injectors out there, search around, make some calls, you can get upgrade injectors for the TBI system. It's not a myth. You work in a shop? Page through some of your supplier's catalogues.

 

I really hope someone does make more power than my old beater, and you know, I thought by now that someone would have. As a good mentor once said to me "some day I want you to better than me." So the more power to you, this is fun stuff for me and I feel everyone involved with these cars.

 

 

Your "old beater" is the highest hp tbi car out there, huh? Right.

[JustPaus_88TSi]

Woo.. It's gettin hot it here..

 

 

Has anyone posted about a more powerful TBI car yet?

 

 

Bosch/Ford has a set of injectors with a wide cone spray pattern, but the one's I found are only 39-42lb/hr...

[BlueCook]

Nope no one has yet. Im getting ready to but Kyle may before i do, but i think he is about to go mpi. Idk

 

I just got my setup runing that no one really knows about. Ill have info up on it soon.

 

Drew

 

BTW im using a Maft With a GM mass but may in up selling it and buying the PRO.

[NotStock88]

I would say I want something I can install and have the follow up support if something doesnt work right. FIP seems to stand out since its tried and true. There is a forum dedicated to the maft pro but as previously stated, its not been known and tried on a quest so I don't think follow up support would be much help.

 

If you want to be a pioneer I wish you the best of luck...Logan;) let us know how it goes.

[88TSI_Rob]

I would say I want something I can install and have the follow up support if something doesnt work right. FIP seems to stand out since its tried and true. There is a forum dedicated to the maft pro but as previously stated, its not been known and tried on a quest so I don't think follow up support would be much help.

 

If you want to be a pioneer I wish you the best of luck...Logan;) let us know how it goes.

 

Actually quite a few guys have run the MAF-T on here. They just don't post in the MPI forum. :wink:

 

Read up:

http://www.starquestclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=40976

[NotStock88]

I would say I want something I can install and have the follow up support if something doesnt work right. FIP seems to stand out since its tried and true. There is a forum dedicated to the maft pro but as previously stated, its not been known and tried on a quest so I don't think follow up support would be much help.

 

If you want to be a pioneer I wish you the best of luck...Logan;) let us know how it goes.

 

Actually quite a few guys have run the MAF-T on here. They just don't post in the MPI forum. :wink:

 

Read up:

http://www.starquestclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=40976

 

Sorry but that is not maft PRO. I have yet to see PRO used on a quest.

[chrisviper]

I picked up the MAF Pro and related parts last night.

 

Here is the MAF Pro, map sensor, intake temp sensor, boost sol, and wiring harnesses.

 

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/vprtech/DSC01090.jpg

 

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/vprtech/DSC01089.jpg

 

You can see with the VE table that it looks at map (engine load, not "dyno load" and engine rpm for its calculated maf output to the stock ecu. The SAFC uses three ranges of throttle position to determine engine load. On a turbo car, you could be at 100kpa or 300kpa at a given throttle position, and this is the point I am trying to make about why I don't think using the safc is a good idea for tuning these cars with major fuel system modifications such as large injectors or a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. Additionally, if I remember correctly, you can map this in real time, and link the logging pids to the VE map.

 

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/vprtech/TunerProLoggingVE.jpg

 

 

I don't have any logging data to show, but at least you can see that you can graphically log data, including afr if you have it wired to the MAF pro.

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/vprtech/TunerProLoggingData.jpg

 

 

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/vprtech/TunerProLogging.jpg

 

[/img]

[NotStock88]

SWEET!!!!!!!!

[chrisviper]

Here are some links:

 

This is a good write up on the idea of how the Maf Translator Pro works and the idea behind speed density tuning:

 

http://www.maftpro.com/speeddensity.shtml

 

You can download the manuals here :

 

http://www.fullthrottletech.com/

 

Here is the Tunerpro software that used used to log and edit the MAF Pro with your laptop:

 

http://tunerpro.markmansur.com/downloadApp.htm

 

- Chris

[franco101]

I'm really interested to see the results Chris. I have the maft and an safc neo installed to fine tune. I'll be going to two secondary's soon. I was getting 243rwhp on a dyno with just the maft and 16psi. Now I hope to run my 18g 06 turbo to 20psi and see if I have enough fuel. The maft is a great upgrade in itself over stock mas and 1g mas. I recently had a horrible stumble issue at about 4000 or so rpm's. First I thought it was someting with the maft or gm mas. I removed it and re installed the 1g mas. I still had the stumble , but it was not as violent. Which means I was rushing in more air with the maft. More air , more power.

 

Franco

 

ps: The sumble was due to a sticking vacuum adv. Fairly new mind you

[franco101]

Just curious if Chris Viper or anyone else has installed the maft pro?

[Dan_Brew]

franco,

 

I sent you pm about AFC Neo, I just bought one and had some questions.

[NotStock88]

Why is this in mpi when it relates to tbi cars? Edited April 26, 2008 by NotStock88

[Scotty Dont]

hey chrisviper any updates on the maftpro setup