Drift Car????

[HamsMKIII]

Suspension is the deciding factor in making a good drift car. The SQ has a good power/weight ratio, a relatively small size, and would lend itself well to drifting. The problem I forsee is that there isn't enough aftermarket support for the car to upgrade the suspension components to be competitive on the D1 circuit.  I've been considering a SQ to compete in the D1 because I'd really like to compete in a car that's more rare, as opposed to something like a S13...

 

It would be beneficial to build a SQ using a 4G swap and set up a suspension with real coilovers. It just seems like so much work when you consider that some other cars, like S13, have vast aftermarket support for such sports. I think the jury is still out on whether I will do the SQ, but I am hoping that I can make it happen.

 

- Hams.

[patra_is_here]

hey guys, figured i'd post in here again.

 

I got an 86 starion ESIR with just real minor mods (2.5 exhaust, G1 bov).

 

the suspension is stock

 

the MAJOR difference is that i'm running 205/55's on all four wheels (front 7" and rear 8").

 

i took it out for a test drive the other day and just using some basic drift techniques I was able to kick the rear end out in a controlled fashion. (i combined feint and braking drift).

 

i'm running khumo 712's on all 4.

 

drifting doesnt take a CRAZY set up (full coilovers, locking diff etc etc). you just have to know your cars dynamics and beable to control weight shift and traction.

[DJpowerHaus]

It takes tires and practice.  Dont skimp on the tires.  I felt the best driving on 9" tires on the rear.  I cant say the car understeers at all now that I've learned more.  Its just a car like any other.  Modify your driving.  I dont know what I did this weekend, but I dont remember any understeer whatsoever.. this is with crappy 7" tires on the front and 9" Michelin Pilots in the rear.

 

Oh and as for coilovers.. that's a crock.  Some of the best drift Corrolas use inserts and springs as upgrades.  My car is stiffer and handles better than my friends 240 with $1600 coilovers.

 

Stop talking about building the perfect car and go out and start practicing at sanctioned drift events.  Don't start with D1 competitions.. that's dumb.  Start from the grassroots level and work your way up.  It takes years of this kind of practice to even compete in a well set up car.

[patra_is_here]

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what he said =)

[ChvyKc]

I agree, you can build the best drift car in the world and still get your a** beat by a ricer in his dad's Thunderbird if you can't drive.

 

I have gotten away from the SQ scene for right now, I am focusing on my 3G eclipse for now.  I am trying to get a strong SCCA set-up for right now and that car has a good suspension set-up from the factory.  The only mods that I have done to the car are Eibach Pro-kit springs, KYB AGX's, ST Rear sway bar, and Yokohama Parada Spec-2's.  I think that should be a good set-up for right now, I may end up looking into a chassis stiffening kit, but I am not for sure about that.  I am not really feeling the whole 500 bucks for the kit, don't know if it is worth it or not.

 

I am planning on getting another SQ at the end of next year and do exactly what was said above, start at the bottom and work my way up with the whole drifting thing.  I would love to see how a SQ would stack in a competition against some of those cars.  Guess that I will just have to wait until then to find out.

 

Thanks,

 

David

[ilikestarion]

you guys who are experiencing understeer aren't doing it right (don't flame me!!!) i am just saying you don't ahve enough experience. check out http://www.driftsession.com they have a list of how to drift each style with pictures and how to(techniques section). it might help you out a lot. then again, you could always go to a dirt track with a car with less horsepower and mess around until you figure it out. i started drifting a toyota tercel (ha ha ha, i know it's funny) and believe it or not, you can drift it without the e-brake. it's all in the driver as someone said earlier. anyway, the AE86 (hachiroku, trueno, whatever) is by far my favorite car for drifting. i have an sr5, it had all of 70ish horsepower at teh wheels, but on command it would drift like nobody's business. and the control was amazing. anyway, last thing i wanted to say was that you don't need a turbo or even that much horsepower to drift, until you are doing a manuever commonly referred to as "power-over". i think that's why you guys are getting understeer. hit the gas a little later, in fact, just keep your engine at a higher RPM too. but whatever. oh yeah suspension is key. get an all 4 whel alignment and give yourself some neutral handling in the back and some negative camber in the front if you really want to be serious about drifting your car.

 

Sorry this post got so lon, but i ramble when i talk about things that i really really love i/e Starion and Drifting!

 

i hope i helped someone out there, just make sure you check out that link and watch lots of videos.  i have some great instructional type videos that show pedal movements and stuff. if you're interested leave me a pm and i will setup an ftp.

good luck everybody.

[ilikestarion]

50/50 weight distribution isn't the best BTW, you actually want a little more weight in the back. a perfect 50/50 car will understeer in every corner unless you change your whole suspension and all this extra BS. you want something like 4/52%.

someone mentioned mr2s... i happen to have one right now, i sold my starion, but i am getting it back hopefully this week. the lighter weight of the mr2 and the shorter wheel base makes it a complain to drift. it's doable, but not as fun as say a corolla.

also, someone said that the AE86 has a problem with understeer? this is a actualyl a problem with the driver. i heard that the mr2 was a problem with oversteer. i haven't experienced that yet though. it all comes down to practice, determination and experience. i swear on that. hopefully nobody will get mad at me being not so nice in these last two posts, i am jsut out teh door and wanted to leave my 2 cents. BTW, DJPowerHaus is pretty right on, listen to that guy!

[patra_is_here]

well, according to Keiichi Tsuchiya (the drift king) the ae86 and S13 are notorious for understeer.

 

if you check out his drift bible he comments on that very issue and remedies it by using the ebrake moreso than the other cars.

 

but, on very neutral cars like the k-office S14 he can throw it into drift without the ebrake using simply braking drift or accel-off.

 

the MR2 on the otherhand has lots of oversteer, and it's evident by how keiichi has to drive it. he has to compenstate and not go in as hot, and break a bit sooner. It's also the only car that he manages to spin out of control during the instructional.

[DJpowerHaus]

Get off your butts and go out there and drive EVERYTHING you can get your hands on.. then you can talk about the differneces of different setups and chassis.

[ilikestarion]

amen DJpowerHaus! that's what i'm talking about! do you drive the same way Keiichi Tsuchiya does? i don't! i have some videos of him driving, yes he's good. but like dj said, YOU have to drive the car! i never experienced understeer unless i wanted to on my aw11(1G) mr2!!! in fact, the starion gives me more trouble than the mr2. granted, i was drinking when i hit that curb.  :'( so DON'T EVER DRINK AND DRIVE!!!! (i was young, don't tell me about not drinking and driving, i don't do it anymore).

P.S. it was a bad a** race though!)not drag, road race. through the mean streets of LB at like 2:30. nobody on the road, which is good, and the only damn reason i hit the curb was because i had a vacuum leak and it bucked in the corner and kicked ou the rear end DAMMIT! my wheelbearings are messed up still i think.

[diamondstar36]

I owned 2 different S13s before buying my Starion, and really besides the added weight they handle very similar.  Since the suspension on my SQ is stock, I don't have near the commitment ability (aka corner speed), but it's still pretty controllable to drift.  Easiest way for me to ease into learning the car is clutch kicking it at a little slower enter speed.  Works wonders to start the angle if you don't feel confident in throwing the weight of the car into it.

[DJpowerHaus]

amen DJpowerHaus! that's what i'm talking about! do you drive the same way Keiichi Tsuchiya does?

 

Who's that?... oh.. and lay off the crack cocaine, man.

[4stAir]

with all this drift talk i think i need wiegh in. i bought mine for drifting a year ago. there is one thing that will make or break your starion.  its the suspension because if your car starts body roll over the rear tires and you are making good power it becomes unpredictable. the reason it does that the limited slip isnt adjustable.  

240's and rx's and all the corollas use Kaaz limted slips or another aftermarket brand because they are adjustable. the Kaaz includes instrutions on how to make its holding percentage greater or weaker. thats one of the main things these cars lack. if we could make our rears more like a locker or spool if you will, our suspension would be more adequate....

[Prozaq]

Oops....I forgot about this thread.

 

A phrase that is tossed around regarding MR2's is "low polar moment of inertia". Imagine an outline of a car...figure in corner weight at each tire, then place a pole where the "center" would be in relationship to weight. MR2 has ~60% towards the a** end, so the pole will be somewhere behind the seats and just in front of the engine. The pole is the z-axis. Now imagine the car being suspended from this pole, and imagine how much force it would take to rotate the car. With the mass closer to the pole, the car becomes easier to spin (low polar moment). With the mass further out, the car is resistant to spinning (higher polar moment). The MR2 can get away with a LPM due to the drive wheels in the rear and having a weight bias towards the back half of the wheelbase.

 

I still haven't gotten the chance to drive my 'quest; hopefully sometime in the near future I can get the rest of the parts I need. So I can't speak from first hand about the understeering issue on the starquests. If you guys are looking at weight reduction, I'd suggest starting in the front, and move what you can to the back (the battery is the only thing that comes to mind). By removing weight up front, you'll move the imaginary pole (weight bias) closer to the center of the wheelbase.

 

Just a quick sidenote: IMO the MR platform is detrimental when drifting. They won't support the slip angles that FR's can, just due to the fact that once throttle is reapplied, weight is sent to the rear where it grips instead of keeping the tires lose. So the car will just pull out in the direction of the countersteering instead of keeping the nose to the curb. For an MR to work, you would need to make a LOT of changes...and I'm not convinced that it would work even after that.

[eeaston]

Don't confuse polar moment of inertia with front/rear weight bias.

[Prozaq]

Don't confuse polar moment of inertia with front/rear weight bias.

 

http://www.siu.edu/~ritzel/courses/302s/ve...cledynamics.htm

A very important handling concept, which dictates the willingness of a car to change directional position if called Polar Moment of Inertia.  “Poles of inertia†are just another way of saying “center of weight concentrationâ€.  The “moment†in this concept is determined by the front-to-rear location of the center of gravity.  The car turns (changes direction) about its center of gravity in a corner so the further away the centers of weight concentration are located from the center of gravity (which is their common center), the bigger the “momentâ€.

 

I'm not entirely sure if the imaginary pole would move if weight bias is redistributed, although this excerpt makes it sound like they still would. Any physics majors care to comment? ;D

[4stAir]

if you are drifting would the pivot point automatically be the front wheel be it either side depending on left or right turn.  now how your weight is distributed front to rear and side to side would alter the inertia based on that pivot point.  correct????

[Prozaq]

if you are drifting would the pivot point automatically be the front wheel be it either side depending on left or right turn.  now how your weight is distributed front to rear and side to side would alter the inertia based on that pivot point.  correct????

 

I think what you're talking about is once you're at the point of countersteering in a drift, any throttle response will pivot the car about the front wheels. It seems like that would be mostly due to the fact that the front tires are gripping much more than the back wheels...you're steering the car in the general direction you want it to go, and the throttle and brake are used to change slip angle (to fine adjust the car's entry/exit angle).

[Dcrasta]

How bout lets get rid o this power steering it sucks!

[4stAir]

are you going to run a steering quickener or just try to muscle it? i think that will work on a corolla but a quest is alot to muscle through the corners isnt it?

[patra_is_here]

i think some of you are over analyzing this whole situation.

 

center of gravity, weight distribution,  and moments of inertia are not the same thing.

 

center of gravity: the point that, mathematically, can be used to represent the distribution of the cars mass.

 

weight distribution: the ratio of mass in terms of front vs rear (or sometimes interms of each corner, at the wheels)

 

moments of intertia: this is for calculating the force that the mass of the car would have during dynamic movements (accelerating, turning, braking). think of it as related to the amount of torque a sideways car would have that keeps is sliding

[DJpowerHaus]

Blah blah blah.. GET OUT AND DO IT!  You can drift anything well, just go practice.  I'm actually pretty happy with the factory steering after taking the time to learn it (and I put in some new parts to tighten it up and stop it from leaking).  The stock diff is actually pretty crazy for a street car.. its a clutch based 2 way differential.  Do some reasearch and you'll see this is the same setup as aftermarket units, although they might have more clutches and different clutch matterial.. anyways.. it doesnt matter.

 

It's been 2 years and I've only ever seen 1 other Starquest at a drift event on the east coast and that car is currently a total piece of crap and will probably never run right.  

 

So yeah... stop your mass-debating and buy a spare set of tires and wheels and go out and do it once and keep trying and learn it.

[paulie]

no one mention the porsche 944 ,it has one of the best handling cars of all times.

I own a 944 n/a and a 89 starion w/b,which one you guys think  it be the best for

 drifting?

 

 

 

paulie ???

[Drive-By]

Blah blah blah.. GET OUT AND DO IT!  You can drift anything well, just go practice.

 

 

Amen to that, play ing about with aeight and suspension before you have even got used to the car is STUPID!.

 

You need to find yours and the cars limits before tampering or it will just feel different everytime and not feel stable at all.

 

Our cars are essentially just a big torquey Corolla /trueno , what we lack in lightness we make up for in low torque. The Corolla is just so good coz COG is low and has very little weight, combined with high reving N/A keeps momentum and  control easily.

 

When I got into drifting I wanted an eight-six like mad but they are just crazy money now. I remembered the Starions from my early days as a Mitsi mechanic fondly. I've track a couple down and now have a project car in the garage and a daily driver/practice car.

I've found she's not bad at all on stock suspension and the feed in on power is strangley smoother with the boost just a little higher, the lag is less in your face.

 

Buy the "Drift Bible" DVDhttp://www.dukevideo.com/products/ZZ3676.htm orhttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...922574?v=glance

 

The minute it rains, find an empty parking lot.

 

Practice Practice Practice

 

Keep the PAS but when you get technical in your style add a bigger PAS oil cooler

 

Later on Tokico's and Eibachs are a good combo, and Poly bushes give much more feed back.

 

 

I'm glad I chose a Starion as my drifter, I think the classic JDM drift cars have so much more appeal and carisma. Plus yeah compared to the others they are rare and when people see the Bishi badge and intercooler turbo they get an incling of the cars capability and wonder if she's the forgotten Evo.

[DJpowerHaus]

Try learning in the dry first though.. its not as easy as you might think.  The learning curve is alot steeper and you'll have to learn more ways of avoiding understeer, but when you get it everything clicks together.. then do a rain event and learn more.. then switch back to dry.  At this point things just start clicking on every run and well.. it starts being a total blast (finally).