bender 702 Posted August 22, 2015 Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 There has been a lot of discussion on using MSD 6 or 6al with mostly good results. Now the msd6-btm has an added vacumn port that when connected compensates for boost by retarding the spark by up to 15 degrees, however I understand that our own ECU does that to some extent already. The question is this: If you are upgrading to a 20G (using the stock TD05) will the increased CFM at 10psi still be compensated by our ECU? I have aslightly modded engine with upgraded head, vlaves, ARP, solid cam. ALSO, would you keep/remove the igniter box and then add the 8910 or 8920? I just want the most practical and problem free setup while delivering some performance. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ucw458 Posted August 22, 2015 Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 The stock ECU doesn't compensate for anything timing related. All timing advance and retard is controlled mechanically by the distributor. Knock retard is controlled by the stock ignitor. A bigger turbo wont add more air unless you turn up the boost. You can hit the limits of the stock fuel system pretty quick once you go past 15 psi. The better option if you want more power is a standalone ECU controlling timing and fuel. That way you can run bigger injectors and more boost. A TD05 20g will have too small of a hot side. TD05H is minimum with a 20g. TD06, TD06H or TD06SL2 is a prefered size. I ran a TD05H 20g on my MPI. It worked but the small hotside gave me 15 psi @ 2500 RPM. Sounds good but that meant I was almost always in boost. Kinda killed fuel mileage. A TBI setup would spool it higher in the RPM range due to less air flow through the intake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott87star Posted August 22, 2015 Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 If you are upgrading to a 20G (using the stock TD05) will the increased CFM at 10psi still be compensated by our ECU? What leads you to believe the CFM of a 20G at 10 psi is any different than the CFM of a 12a at 10 psi, all else being equal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creakyjoints Posted August 22, 2015 Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 lol! I had the same question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bender 702 Posted August 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 (edited) Thanks for the prompt response... As far as the timing issue... Yes the distributor for sure, however it looked as if the ECU was drawn in with in with the detonation sensor ( page 8-139) with the diagram linking in the ECU/ESC ignitor to further retard the timing. It is still unclear as to exactly how many degree's of timing retard it is capable of vs. the MSD6-btm with posted specs of 15 degree max. I have an MSD 6a and would like to connect it up using the ESC unless it is unnecessary or would create problems OR trade the 6a in for the BTM series. Did install a higher volume/pressure BOSH fuel pump. The turbo......This was the suggestion at Mike's Turbo. Hong advised me of this option stating that it would perform better and especially would not fade out in the upper RPM areas as a stock 12a does. He also recommended keeping at 10psi (that kind of surprised me). He did say (personally) that he altered the hot side wheel (H) although I do not see any documentation on the invoice. I do have a boost controller for sure to alter the psi. Edited August 22, 2015 by bender 702 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ucw458 Posted August 22, 2015 Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 Bigger turbos, fuel pumps, ICs, pipes, etc etc don't get you past the stock injector roadblock. The stock ECU is only going to work with stock size injectors and they can only support so much power. Only by running an aftermarket fuel controller can you get through that roadblock. If I was going to build another stock TBI car I would do TD06 16g, wideband, bigger exhaust and MBC set between 15-20 psi. If I wanted more I would ditch the stock setup and go with Scotts TBI MS setup or go MPI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott87star Posted August 22, 2015 Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 You are the victim of excellent marketing. The purpose of a bigger compressor is increased efficiency at higher pressure ratios putting a smaller load on the intercooler, but you have to change the pressure ratio to take any advantage. And as ucw has said the stock turbine is too small to net any power increase with bigger pressure ratios, increasing boost pressure on the stock hotside just leads to detonation. The better solution is to increase the size of the hotside to 06 and leave the compressor 12a, that combo can actually flow more air which is how higher torque and power are made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarquestRescue Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I would retain the stock igniter and run the 6a you already have with the 8910 tack adapter. This is a well proven set up. The 3 distributors i tested pulled between 12-14 degrees. The igniter/knock box will pull up to 12 when it pick up false knock. Which it will probably will by about 15 psi. The vender recommended 10 psi to cover his butt when you turn it up, and every one all ways does. There are two wires from the ecu to the igniter. One advances the timing 5* at cold coolant temps. The other enables the knock retard capability at airflow slightly above idle. If you remove the chra from the housings you can measure the wheels with a caliper and confirm what you have. I would recommend you at least verify the turbine size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bender 702 Posted August 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 You guys are great... Mikes Turbo came highly recommended and I know you guys know of his business. So, I just cannot understand why Hong would steer me this way especially after I explained what I had. He could have sold me on any of the best options and the price would probably have been the same. I will Hong tomorrow and discuss his 20G theory again for the record. I will then post his answer with going with the 20G for your comment(s)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bender 702 Posted August 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Could not get in contact with Hong today. Should be receiving the 20G tomorrow afternoon. All of your posts makes plenty of sense for sure including the stock timing issues ( thanks) and I will try to make the best of it and let you know the results..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bender 702 Posted August 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Talked to Hong yesterday. He said that he understoodd whatws being said, however he did put in a 06 hotside.... good.... He said the 20G would be more effecient, that the rising rate fuel pressure regulator I just purchased was a smart move and that I should "try it and you will like it"..... OK, will do just that.. At least I am now aware of the 6 upgrade! Will check as you guys have suggested.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott87star Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 JUST to be sure I'd measure the exhaust wheel. Unless it explicitly states on the paperwork the turbine wheel was changed and the hotside bored to accept the larger wheel OR a different hotside used I wouldn't expect it would be done. Again, if it were me I'd have to know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bender 702 Posted August 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Agreed... I am also going to ask Hong to re-invoice me to include the exact change to the hotside. That way I will be on the record... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bender 702 Posted August 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 TD06-20G installed... spools up faster and pulls hard. It seems that the longer I run it the better it gets! Now the boost gauge may be wrong, however it is still around 10. Have not installed the new rising rate fuel reg. I will get a new boost gauge for a more accurate reading and start increasing the boost until I reach the limits of the injectors. At that poiint I will install the new fuel reg + pressure gauge. Then incremental pressure increases from there. I agree for sure that I will hit the wall with the stock set-up, however it will be fun to test out anyway. The MSD-6a will be last. I will take my time to make sure each change is only made when everything runs well and stable.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarquestRescue Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Do you have any pictures of the new turbo off the car? How will you know when you "reach the limits of the injectors"? Do you have a wide band o2 and a tuning system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bender 702 Posted August 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Good question... Of all the pics of have taken of the build I failed to take any of the new tubo..... wide band, yes... New boost gauge, not yet....boost controller coming.. I will increase the boost until I ( under load ) the A/F ratio fails to drop below 12.5 or so. At that point I will install the rising rate fuel pressure reg with gauge and gradually increase pressure, make some runs and observe the affect on the A/F. Fixed pulse duration more pressure maybe a little more fuel will get in... we will see how much can be squeezed out of it . If it still will not go below 13 at the final boost setting I will call it a day and enjoy what I have for awhile. I may then also install the 6a MSD and check for any improvement too... My thanks to all for your continued interest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bender 702 Posted September 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2015 Just an update here... boost controller working very well... understanding that my stock boost gauge may not be very accurate I am close to 14 psi... So far no prblems with A/F ratio ( in the mid 10-11 ) and no ignition issues.. engine is tight and trans shifting is quick and firm... I am actually pretty surprised with the performance of the stock reg and ignition so far. Forgot to mention that I already did the 1G mas , K/N and gutted cat.... Will stop here and have the transmission flushed and checked out as it is needed anyway ( Auto ). I know with this extra boost it will put a strain on the clutch plates for sure and if the tranny is marginal it will probably fail fairly quickly... Thank again and I believe I will see the changes StarquestRescue and ucw458 have predicted after 15psi and if so I need tocheck out Scotts TBI MS setup... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted September 8, 2015 Report Share Posted September 8, 2015 I'll bet you are liking that set-up. The main issue is to not let the egt's get too high, and that is most likely why your guy set you up with a large turbo and told you to keep the boost low. He doesn't know our fuel systems other than they are TB injected, which usually means they can't handle much more boost. So, short of telling you to bring the car in and charge you an arm and a leg for major tuning, etc.. (that they probably can't do on this car anyway), he did the safe thing to tell you to keep the boost low. And like these guys are saying, you probably won't be able to supply enough fuel for much over 15 PSI on that turbo, even with the 1G MAS and RRFPR. I have the same items on my bell ported 17C and it can handle up to 18PSI, but that is with a big cam too. It doesn't nose over until well past 6500 RPM and runs like a Screamin'Banshee. I'd also have to think you do have the 06 hot side if you are noticing a quicker spool than your worn out 12A had. Its all good on your set-up if you ask me. You are doing the right thing and monitoring AF, but be sure to get that good boost gauge on there. The higher the boost, the more everything depends on each other to be working correctly. If the Fuel Pump can't keep up, or filters get clogged, it doesn't take much to detonate and hurt something. Before you know it, major damage occurs. If I were you, I would keep it where you know it is safe and be happy with that runnin' mo fo. When you want more, call those TBi guys who can hook you up! Stay doing things right, and it will last a very long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bender 702 Posted September 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 Thank you for that concise information. Your valildation of the direction I have taken definately eases my mind. From looking at the cars you have listed above I take it that your suggestions are coming from personal experience so I will definately take them. I will stop at 15ish! AND I will be happy...Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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