4g63/4g64 is it worth it?

[questbooster]

Hey everyone, I am looking into getting a starion and was wondering if an engine swap would be worth the trouble if I got one. I was originally thinking just doing a 4g63 swap, but then I heard about the de-stroked 4g64, which gives 2.1l displacement and around an 11000 rpm redline. Would either of these motors be worth the trouble or should I stick with a g54b starion? The other option would be dohc g54b. Also if anyone is selling a starion, let me know please. Thanks.

[techboy]

If you do some research on here you can find alot out about swapping a 4G63 into a Starquest. There is definitely some fab involved. I haven't done a 4G63 swap personally, but I've looked into it. You have cut a "pocket" into the firewall. You have to have the intake manifold modified. The TB needs to be swapped to the other side, which involves some welding. Of course, you'll have to do some wiring harness modification. And, you need some decisions about transmissions. So, it really depends on your skill level, amount of money you want to spend, and who you know that can do some of the work you may not be capable of doing ... and maybe most of all - the willingness to see the project to the end. Too many times in the world of auto project cars get started and then never finished.

 

This is the best site I've seen on 4G63 swapping info: http://www.projectzerog.com/

 

As far as Starions F/S, check the F/S section on this forum for a car local to you.

[Cloud81918]

DOHC G54B, nope. Parts required are so Unicorn it'll never happen.

 

11000 RPM redline sounds fun, but won't be as fun as you think. People talk about how cool it would be to have a race engine in a street car. It isn't. High revving race engines suck. They are temperamental. Racecars show up to track all the time and don't run or run poorly, that isn't fun in my book. They also make power in a planned area of the powerband; You need to be there all the time. I hate driving S2000s on the street because the engine is lame unless it is on boil. 8/10ths is Accord lame, 9/10ths you think you are going to kill little children. Somewhere in 8.5 there is a fun on city streets area, but it is a knife edge.

 

4G63, sure you can do it with mostly all Mitsu parts and get OEM style results. But it is about as easy to go to a GM LS engine, prehaps the V8 is easier. The LS engine will make as much as a moderately tuned 4G63, weight is about the same (aluminum vs iron block) and be more reliable. For that matter 1jz falls in about the same arena.

 

G54B is easy because it is there already.

 

I'd say keep it G54B or go for and upgrade outside of Mitsubishi.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Cloud81918

[DieHARDmitsu.]

Sure its worth it. The legendary 4-banger that has been proven to pump out loads of power is a very good swap option.

One thing I like about the 4g motors, is the availability of performance parts. Some will arguer that the motor lacks low end torque as compared to a 2jzgte, a swap quite a few have done. Still, I like the fact that the 4g is half the weight of toyota's inline six and can make almost as much horsepower.

 

I have a custom bellhousing for a 4g63/TKO swap. I"ve been gather parts like a squirrel, slowly but surely its going to get done.

Check out the website mention ^^^above. It has lots of info on this swap.

Edited July 6, 2013 by DieHARDmitsu.

[questbooster]

Thanks for the info and the awesome website. I have some friends with 4g63s and some with welding skills I think we can get it done. I have considered the 2jz but I kind of like telling people they got whooped on 4 cyl. lol. As far as the parts for g54b dohc being so rare, I was wondering if anyone has ever considered using modern science and just 3d printing the parts. There are high temp plastics available that can withstand the temp of the engine and you should be able to have one printed for less than $2500. Any thoughts on that option? would that be as powerful as 4g63?

[Cloud81918]

3d printing a head? Plus there is the cam drive and the cams. That stuff will have to be in metal. Most of the parts that could be plastic would possibly be easier to make in metal. But if you could do a DOHC G54B it would be a monster. But you can make a monster with a SOHC as well.

[questbooster]

Well do you think the head could be 3d printed and then just get metal cams, valves, retainers, etc.?

[questbooster]

Does anyone have head flow numbers from SOHC g54b, DOHC 4g63, DOHC g54b?

[Cloud81918]

Well do you think the head could be 3d printed and then just get metal cams, valves, retainers, etc.?

 

Nope. Not in anything readily available. You could model and print then loss-cast it, but you'd have a pretty expensive head. Not worth it. 3d printing materials are getting better everyday, but it will still be a long while before you can play with the idea of a working head. I mean the someone just made the first pistol a few months ago. It is good for a few rounds. A head has to take abuse far beyond that.

 

 

Does anyone have head flow numbers from SOHC g54b, DOHC 4g63, DOHC g54b?

 

A lot more goes into power than max flow. Like I said you can make power in the G54B despite the less than optimal DOHC head. No one has a running DOHC headed G54B that anyone know of as far as I've heard.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Cloud81918

[TexasQuest]

Yes it's worth doing a 4g swap in your car. It's not as difficult or expensive as some people make it seem. You can use your factory trans and they make rwd swap intake mani's. Tons of donor ram 50's and mighty max's to get donor 4G64 blocks out of.

[techboy]

What TexasQuest said ^^^^, if you're gonna do it and retain the stock trans, you need the narrow block, not the 4G63 1G, or 2G block. Keep researching.

 

And .... if head parts could be made out of plastic every car company would already be doing it. 3D printing is great for prototyping at this point in time, and that's about what most companies use it for.

[Guest]

DOHC 4G54 is near mythical. Think of it like the dinosaurs, only reason we know they existed is cuz of the fossils.

 

4G63/64 combo is proven power plant. Some work to make it happen but realistically possible.

[questbooster]

Okay, I like the sound of the 4g64 so far. But just out of curiosity, if I were to get a DOHC g54b head machined (yes I know "not possible", "too expensive", whatever just go with it.), what metal would be needed? and what treatment? (ie: Aluminum: 7075 or 6061)

[questbooster]

Also, I heard talk of a wideblock 4g54 that accepts 4g64 heads, is this true?

[nfelge]

if you have to ask: no

[Guest]

Bring on the beaten dead horse...

[Cloud81918]

Okay, I like the sound of the 4g64 so far. But just out of curiosity, if I were to get a DOHC g54b head machined (yes I know "not possible", "too expensive", whatever just go with it.), what metal would be needed? and what treatment? (ie: Aluminum: 7075 or 6061)

 

Seriously starting to sound trollish now. But I'm going to bite a bit. Are you talking about custom machining a DOHC G54B head? That truly is out of the scale of this forum.

 

Did some get made? Yes. Do some still exist? Maybe. Can you make one? Sure, but why? It would be a ton of work.

 

From the current availability of the DOHC heads (They are Albino Unicorn-Dragon hybrids at this point) copying an existing head will be next to impossible, because you couldn't get one. So you have to design your own, no easy task. Then have it built. And test it, probably going though many revisions. You are taking about half an engine development program. A "What Aluminum Alloy?" question isn't even in the picture.

 

I remember talk about one of the race teams talking about making a custom DOHC head and another having a custom SOHC head built. Perhaps someone will correct me if I'm wrong. The SOHC head was milled out of a block aluminum. Using the original head as a basis for the design. It worked well but cost something like 20K. The team doing the DOHC head never got it working. Both teams knew what they were doing and had money.

 

If you are a that bad that you can design a DOHC head and make it work, awesome. But to us simpler folks the idea of making a DOHC head isn't worth it. You can get decent power out of the SOHC and is the goal is to go fast there are many less problematic ways of achieving that.

 

 

 

Albino Unicorn-Dragon Hybrid

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9008/g54b.jpg

[questbooster]

Dang. I was hoping maybe someone had some schematics to the dohc but I couldn't design my own. I was thinking maybe like $4000 for a head max but that's crazy if the race team couldn't even get it working for $20000. I like the g54b and don't want to do a swap but I really wanted DOHC. I am willing to do 4g64 swap, but would like to avoid it if possible. What is the max hp of the 8v g54b and the 12v g54b? The 12 valve sounds like a viable option if it will make similar power to the 4g64 for less money and work.

[Cloud81918]

Dang. I was hoping maybe someone had some schematics to the dohc but I couldn't design my own. I was thinking maybe like $4000 for a head max but that's crazy if the race team couldn't even get it working for $20000. I like the g54b and don't want to do a swap but I really wanted DOHC. I am willing to do 4g64 swap, but would like to avoid it if possible. What is the max hp of the 8v g54b and the 12v g54b? The 12 valve sounds like a viable option if it will make similar power to the 4g64 for less money and work.

 

I never heard how much was spent by the team trying to make their own DOHC head, just the SOHC team spent something like $20K. Figure that a DOHC will be more complex and expensive.

 

People have made pretty big power with the SOHC. Max? I don't know. But I thought I heard of some really built engines hitting 700. Lots of over 300HP engines out there. For a while that was the plateau everyone gunned for. It is the one I want. And remember the G54B make torque and plenty of it. While it may be easy to scoff at these old motors pushing 300HP, they are pounding 350 or so foot pounds of torque. And lets not forget that the car as a whole is pretty darn light compared to modern stuff.

[importwarrior]

the sukira head

http://www.26liter.us/images/starionbillethead.jpg

[GINASQ]

The 2.1 destroker getting 11k rpm's isnt as easy to do as you think. Getting the displacement is easy but to be able to spin 11k rpm effectively you'll need a very well built head and a turbo that'll blow for that long. What kind of power do you want and where do you want it??

[questbooster]

Woah. What the heck is that sukira head? how many valves?

[questbooster]

@Ginasq I'm looking for 600whp without having to rev the piss out of a motor, I figured if the 4g64 could rev that high and displace more than a 4g63, it could make more power than 4g63/ g54b even at lower rpm. I was thinking something like holset hx40 for turbo.

[Cloud81918]

Woah. What the heck is that sukira head? how many valves?

 

That is the head that the race team the stayed SOHC had made. Like I said, if I recall it was $20K. It is 8 valve.

[Cloud81918]

@Ginasq I'm looking for 600whp without having to rev the piss out of a motor, I figured if the 4g64 could rev that high and displace more than a 4g63, it could make more power than 4g63/ g54b even at lower rpm. I was thinking something like holset hx40 for turbo.

 

600 is a big number. It may not seem big with all of the press around tuner car pumping well over 1000HP. But it is a really big number for most folks. I've only ever been behind the wheel of one 600hp car; Not sure I need that kind of power. Make sure you aren't "pie-in-the-sky"ing your build. It is much easier to plan to hit a power level then to hit it. To me it is probably more fruitful to have a realistic goal, overbuild a bit for that power level and over achieve the planned amount of power a bit. than it is shoot for the stars and miss.

 

300WHP is pretty realistic and means that a car old enough to drink can stare down a brand new STI and teach an Evo a few lessons. It also will have nearly double the stock power and be within the tested and proven limits of the rest of the running gear. Just because an engine can make big power doesn't mean the rest of the car can hang.