Gas mileage Americans are getting hosed

[NoBallHare]

I believe I read somewhere that the Big 3 actually bought the patents to technologies that improved fuel economy or alternative energy since the 50's or 60's. And I am not impressed by the "high fuel economy" things rolling around town anymore. The Volt?! Come on... And I do agree with you ucw that we don't get some of the great cars over here. Not sure if it has to do with fuel economy, but the VW Scirroco? I'd pick that over any hatch being offered today. The EPA's goal is to help or protect the environment, but I personally don't care about it. Not that I litter or anything, but having a 60mpg VW or other euro won't kill the bunnies. As far as mpg's go, I've never had a good mpg car. Expo, my GTP gets 11mpg on 91 octane ($60-$70 to fill), my van gets 8mpg, and my winter rat Jimmy is a sipper to me, 15mpg, woot woot. My 2 cents have now been added.

[Technology]

Big car manufacturers compromise with everything. There isn't a car out there from any big name company that isn't sacrificing one thing for another. Even the really efficient cars of the 80s and early 90s did it.

 

But my idea of fun in this regard would be getting a diesel golf or CRX or some tiny car from the late 80s and ecomodding it. Putting all light weight parts in, and taking out all unnecessary ones. I want to do that.

[Technology]

http://ecomodder.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/dsc_0418.jpg

 

118mpg over 108 miles in this HF. Want.

[The Rabbit1]

http://ecomodder.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/dsc_0418.jpg

 

118mpg over 108 miles in this HF. Want.

I wonder how it gets any air to the rad..

 

The sticker on my avalanche said 14/16 or 16/18 when I bought it, I put in a K&N air filter, dual flowmasters, and get 24/26 with no cargo and 17/19 with an engine trans and transfer case in it. and it weighs 6k lbs empty, I know because I took it to the truck scales the first week I bought it. I understand people like quiet exhaust, but a coffin sized box of fiberglass, cotton, and wire mesh is far from an ideal baffle. My flowmasters are actually pretty darn quiet until I put my foot into it.

[Shelby]

if you realy want'd to help make the air cleaner, cuting the amount of fuel use'd by 2 or 3 times would certianly do more for clean air then all the eminsion devices going to day

 

and most certianly the car manufactours and the oil companys are in bed with each other

 

back in 1965 /66 chyr did nothing but install cats on a bunch of cars to test and got (0) zero eminsions out the back and 35 to 45 mpg , the average car cost $1 a lb , the cats would cost an aditional $150 to be change'd every 50 k miles but the oil companys would have none of that

 

automobile priceing and gas priceing is the largest scam our government has ever pull'd on it's people , along with medicne prices

[Metric-man]

Jeff I think you're forgetting that Europeans buy their petrol by the liter,

and they have been paying $5.00 a liter for years now.

 

What about the alcohol that is added to our fuel is that the same mix of fuel that is used by the manufactures to test their vehicles? No because they would never get the test of mileage if they used our "cleaner" gasoline, besides they make fuel efficient Eco boxes for the stupid cafe laws that are a bribe to reduce the tax they would have to pay on the less fuel efficient vehicles,

Ferrari doesn't make Eco boxes and they pay the tax but guess what?

That’s why they cost more because they pass the difference on to the owner.

 

Everyone knows it takes twice as much alcohol to make the same energy as gasoline, which is why we've been on gasoline for so long because there is not anything more efficient.

 

I was watching a retired Shell executive on TV and he was saying that out of the 88 billion barrel that are made annually, the world uses 87 billion, and the United States has more oil than Saudi Arabia but there is a moratorium on drilling in the Gulf and Alaska so he says they should lift the moratorium and allow drilling again.

So if the price of gasoline that is made will be bought for a higher dollar amount in places like China or Russia, we have to pay equal to that for our own gasoline.

In one sentence he says he says the USA's oil and in the next it is the world’s oil.. and we need to start drilling again.

 

The fuel taxes in California are higher than the rest of the country. So we pay more on average for a gallon of gas, but when the fuel prices go up so do the food prices.

 

And I would like to point out right here that is control, because it is a basic necessity of life like air a water and you can stop driving your car or change it consumption but you have a harder time doing that to yourself or your kids especially those with restricted diets, you can't just stop eating to save money or conserve energy.

 

So basically a natural resource that is under our feet that is owned by oil companies corporations that now have the same constitutional rights as citizens do, are pressuring us to vote in favor of drilling of the resource because we have control over it, these same corporations pay their executives more in salaries than they do in taxes, and we give sell or trade them the rights to drill foreign countries oil that

(our government) we want to control.

What is wrong with this picture???

 

The corporations have a hand in every part of our and other countries governments it is difficult to see where they start and our governments end.

 

I don't think at this point in history we can trust private corporations especially the oil industry not to place their profit margin ahead of the welfare of individuals which are what independent democratic countries are composed of.

 

The oil industry itself needs to have reform and controls placed upon it, to keep it from becoming a means unto itself and to start recognizing the need for it to disband its current infrastructure and allow itself to be accountable for its privilege to operate under our current democratic society with discernible economic borders.

And if they oppose this change, Martial law would be imposed upon it if necessary to force this control,

in essence nationalization of the oil corporations and their entities.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Metric-man

[ucw458]

Jeff I think you're forgetting that Europeans buy their petrol by the liter,

and they have been paying $5.00 a liter for years now.

 

 

So you're saying it's ok to drive less efficient vehicles because our fuel is cheaper? I would like to be given the choice. Not have oil/car companies force me to buy less efficient cars.

 

 

What about the alcohol that is added to our fuel is that the same mix of fuel that is used by the manufactures to test their vehicles? No because they would never get the test of mileage if they used our "cleaner" gasoline

besides they make fuel efficient Eco boxes for the stupid cafe laws that are a bribe to reduce the tax they would have to pay on the less fuel efficient vehicles,

 

 

That's a good point. I bet they do use 100% gas for mileage testing.

 

 

I was watching a retired Shell executive on TV and he was saying that out of the 88 billion barrel that are made annually, the world uses 87 billion, and the United States has more oil than Saudi Arabia but there is a moratorium on drilling in the Gulf and Alaska so he says they should lift the moratorium and allow drilling again.

 

 

There's a reason why we don't drill as much. What he couldn't say on tv is the long term unofficial plan is to let the middle east run dry of oil while we still have it. The US will be even more powerful when the others run out of oil. That's how my father explained it and he worked for the oil companies most of his life. He worked for Getty, Texaco and Chevron

[Metric-man]

So you're saying it's ok to drive less efficient vehicles because our fuel is cheaper? I would like to be given the choice. Not have oil/car companies force me to buy less efficient cars.

 

No what I meant was, we're not the only ones that a being (hosed) controlled since our prices are relatively cheaper than Europe.

 

There's a reason why we don't drill as much. What he couldn't say on tv is the long term unofficial plan is to let the middle east run dry of oil while we still have it. The US will be even more powerful when the others run out of oil. That's how my father explained it and he worked for the oil companies most of his life. He worked for Getty, Texaco and Chevron

 

But making us pay higher fuel prices just because other countries are bidding higher in a imbalance of economies

is like a knife in our backs when our economy is tanked as it is,

Getty, Texaco and Chevron are not the United States of America

so they'll just buy us out like cheap stock and make us into a profit,

because oil reserves are speculations that are used to control the prices.

(I have relatives that have been in the oil industry also)

You'll probably see it in a week or so, then check the prices in the grocery stores and see what I mean.

[Metric-man]

Big car manufacturers compromise with everything. There isn't a car out there from any big name company that isn't sacrificing one thing for another. Even the really efficient cars of the 80s and early 90s did it.

 

But my idea of fun in this regard would be getting a diesel golf or CRX or some tiny car from the late 80s and ecomodding it. Putting all light weight parts in, and taking out all unnecessary ones. I want to do that.

http://en.wikipedia....bishi_Pistachio

 

Powered by a 4A31 1094 cc DOHC 16v engine capable of 54 kW (73 PS; 72 hp) at 6000 rpm and 100 N·m (74 lb·ft) of torque at 4000 rpm,

the car was designed to maximize fuel economy and minimize emissions.

It had a 700 kg (1,500 lb) kerb weight,

slim 135/80R13 tyres, electric power steering, lightweight stainless steel exhaust manifold, lightweight aluminium wheels, aluminium hood, thin-gauge glass, and an aluminium seatback.

Under the hood, it utilized both gasoline direct injection (GDI) and Automatic Stop-Go (ASG), a system which turns off the engine while the vehicle is stationary and automatically restarts it when the clutch is depressed.

So equipped, the Pistachio recorded fuel consumption of 30 km/L (84.7 mpg-imp; 70.6 mpg-US), unprecedented for an exclusively gasoline-powered vehicle.

 

http://www.cars-directory.net/pics/mitsubishi/pistachio/1999/mitsubishi_pistachio_a1236768264b2530690_2_orig.jpg

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Start-stop_system

Edited March 18, 2012 by Metric-man

[Potamus]

I have a 03 mk4 vw golf tdi 48 mpg with bigger injector nozels bigger turbo bigger pump head and a nasty tune lotsa black smoke lol i do a 1000 miles a week back and forth to work

[lmwii]

gas mileage is calculated differently in europe.

 

diesel is cheaper there because the preferred method of fractionalization produces a higher proportion of diesel : gas.

 

patents expire.

 

conspiracy theories about big oil and all that nonsense are for idiots.

[Shelby]

gas mileage is calculated differently in europe.

 

diesel is cheaper there because the preferred method of fractionalization produces a higher proportion of diesel : gas.

 

patents expire.

 

conspiracy theories about big oil and all that nonsense are for idiots.

 

 

you go along prety good then you come out with stuff like this =

conspiracy theories about big oil and all that nonsense are for idiots.

 

are you off your meds or what , this is not an attack but you don't seriousely beleave your right do you

[ucw458]

diesel is cheaper there because the preferred method of fractionalization produces a higher proportion of diesel : gas.

 

 

Diesel has heavier hydrocarbons than gasoline. One gallon of diesel can be fractured into more than one gallon of gasoline. Then it gets cut even further with alcohol to make what you buy at the pump. That's why diesel is more expensive.

 

 

Oh and diesel is not cheaper than gas in europe

 

http://www.theaa.com...fuel/index.html

 

 

 

And gas mileage in Europe is calculated at gallons per 100 kilometers or miles per gallon in the UK. New car websites like the VW UK website list both measurements. Not hard to do the math to find US MPG. 1.2 US gallons = 1 UK (imperial) gallon. So take the UK MPG and divide by 6 then multiply by 5 and you get the equivalent US MPG.

Edited March 18, 2012 by ucw458

[ucw458]

Just a little more info about the 91 MPG VW polo.

 

It weighs 3500 lbs so it's heavier than a SQ. If you removed some extra weight it would be faster and get more than 91 MPG.

[Mike_StarionTSI]

I Think Top Gear needs to remake the fuel economy challenge but this time with a budget and not supercars. And then do the homemade fuel economic mods. Hehe

 

Those challenges are classic.

[lmwii]

the difference in how MPG is figured goes beyond the fact that an imperial gallon is a different size than an 'american' gallon. our MPG figures are calculated using a complex test run based on a standard of stopping, starting and steady state running mandated by the EPA. you don't believe that the EU tests their cars' MPG based on an EPA test do you? it's a different test that would yield different results for even the exact same car.

 

diesel in most of europe is cheaper relative to gasoline as compared to the US because it is more common. check out the charts on this site: http://www.eia.gov/emeu/international/oilprice.html

the reason why is:

Al Mannato, a fuel-issues manager at API, explains that oil refineries tend to fall into two categories: catalytic cracking and hydrocracking. Most U.S. refineries are set up for catalytic cracking, which turns each barrel of crude oil into about 50-percent gasoline, 15-percent diesel, and the remainder into jet fuel, home heating oil, heavy fuel oil, liquefied petroleum gas, asphalt, and various other products. In Europe and most of the rest of the world, refineries use a hydrocracking process, which produces more like 25-percent gasoline and 25-percent diesel from that barrel of oil. So the rest of the world is already maximizing diesel production. In fact, despite using a refining strategy that minimizes the production of gasoline, Europe still ends up with too much of the stuff, so it exports it to America—about one of every eight gallons of gasoline that we consume.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/diesel/4330313

http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/should-american-vehicles-go-diesel-just-when-the-world-is-running-short-of-it

 

and yes, shelby, i think that gas/mpg/oil conspiracy theories (and conspiracy theories in general) are for fools. here are some reasons:

1) the old saw about 'big oil' buying up patents is crap - patents expire. you can't monopolize technology but for so long, then it's fair game. your patents are filed and out in the open, so anyone can copy your designs and build them as soon as the patent expires.

2) if there were a car maker who could build a car with 50% better mileage than their competitor, the would do it and bury the competition. the basis for all these supposed machinations is money, but think of the money they could make by out-selling everyone else with their 'secret' technology.

3) if 'big oil' and the automakers are in bed, then (since 'big oil' controls gas prices) why don't they double the MPG of cars and double the price of gas? they'd make just as much money and stretch their game out twice as long.

4) i have no faith in the ability of thousands upon thousands of people to collectively keep their mouths shut for 2 days, much less the decades that these types of conspiracies require.

[ucw458]

I Think Top Gear needs to remake the fuel economy challenge but this time with a budget and not supercars. And then do the homemade fuel economic mods. Hehe

 

Those challenges are classic.

 

 

They did. Season 12 episode 4. Economy race with a jag, vw polo and a subaru. Find it on youtube as "race to blackpool"

[Shelby]

Measured in dollars, the nation is on pace this year to ship more gasoline, diesel, and jet fuel than any other single export, according to U.S. Census data going back to 1990. It will also be the first year in more than 60 that America has been a net exporter of these fuels.

Just how big of a shift is this? A decade ago, fuel wasn't even among the top 25 exports. And for the last five years, America's top export was aircraft.

The trend is significant because for decades the U.S. has relied on huge imports of fuel from Europe in order to meet demand. It only reinforced the image of America as an energy hog. And up until a few years ago, whenever gasoline prices climbed, there were complaints in Congress that U.S. refiners were not growing quickly enough to satisfy domestic demand; that controversy would appear to be over.

Still, the U.S. is nowhere close to energy independence. America is still the world's largest importer of crude oil. From January to October, the country imported 2.7 billion barrels of oil worth roughly $280 billion.

Fuel exports, worth an estimated $88 billion in 2011, have surged for two reasons:

— Crude oil, the raw material from which gasoline and other refined products are made, is a lot more expensive. Oil prices averaged $95 a barrel in 2011, while gasoline averaged $3.52 a gallon — a record. A decade ago oil averaged $26 a barrel, while gasoline averaged $1.44 a gallon.

— The volume of fuel exports is rising. The U.S. is using less fuel because of a weak economy and more efficient cars and trucks. That allows refiners to sell more fuel to rapidly growing economies in Latin America, for example. In 2011, U.S. refiners exported 117 million gallons per day of gasoline, diesel, jet fuel and other petroleum products, up from 40 million gallons per day a decade earlier.

There's at least one domestic downside to America's growing role as a fuel exporter. Experts say the trend helps explain why U.S. motorists are paying more for gasoline. The more fuel that's sent overseas, the less of a supply cushion there is at home.

Gasoline supplies are being exported to the highest bidder, says Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst at Oil Price Information Service. "It's a world market," he says.

Refining companies won't say how much they make by selling fuel overseas. But analysts say those sales are likely generating higher profits per gallon than they would have generated in the U.S. Otherwise, they wouldn't occur.

[Shelby]

The volume of fuel exports is rising. The U.S. is using less fuel because of a weak economy and more efficient cars and trucks. That allows refiners to sell more fuel to rapidly growing economies in Latin America, for example. In 2011, U.S. refiners exported 117 million gallons per day of gasoline, diesel, jet fuel and other petroleum products, up from 40 million gallons per day a decade earlier.

There's at least one domestic downside to America's growing role as a fuel exporter. Experts say the trend helps explain why U.S. motorists are paying more for gasoline. The more fuel that's sent overseas, the less of a supply cushion there is at home.

Gasoline supplies are being exported to the highest bidder, says Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst at Oil Price Information Service. "It's a world market," he says.

Refining companies won't say how much they make by selling fuel overseas. But analysts say those sales are likely generating higher profits per gallon than they would have generated in the U.S. Otherwise, they wouldn't occur.

The value of U.S. fuel exports has grown steadily over the past decade, coinciding with rising oil prices and increased demand around the globe.

Developing countries in Latin America and Asia have been burning more gasoline and diesel as their people buy more cars and build more roads and factories. Europe also has been buying more U.S. fuel to make up for its lack of refineries.

And there's a simple reason why America's refiners have been eager to export to these markets: gasoline demand in the U.S. has been falling every year since 2007. It dropped by another 2.5 percent in 2011. With the economy struggling, motorists cut back. Also, cars and trucks have become more fuel-efficient and the government mandates the use of more corn-based ethanol fuel.

The last time the U.S. was a net exporter of fuels was 1949, when Harry Truman was president. That year, the U.S. exported 86 million barrels and imported 82 million barrels. In the first ten months of 2011, the nation exported 848 million barrels (worth $73.4 billion) and imported 750 million barrels.

[Metric-man]

The USA has the EPA in following CARB model for their mandates for cleaner air there is a Re-Formulated Gas provision that is affecting the price and the cost of diesel since the EPA /CARB effects commerces ability to have a RE-Formulation of GAS and Bio-diesel available this means the storage and dispensing of the new fuels has to be tested and evaluated for evironmental safety... it's all in an API report

Identification and Review of State/Federal Legislative and Regulatory Changes Required

for the Introduction of New Transportation Fuels

in pdf format

http://new.api.org/a...port_080410.pdf

 

There are probably others since this one but if this is the current goal then this explains why our diesel is being exported since it doesn't fit the evironmental standard .

 

The world marketing of oil reserves is still not making anyone profit except the oil corporations and their cronies.

 

Its not helping the economy. it is just making oil the new monitary standard, and since the corporations have the tax loophole they can write off paying too much to their executives salaries instead of paying their share of their income tax.

.

The oil Corporations are not the only Corporations that practice this, but since they are making the most profit with little concern or regulations in place to control their influence or growth in check with the environment the countries and people from which they do business with.

 

I could say more in detail of their own ability to produce propaganda and other investments strategies they have accumulated since their tenure in business as usual.

I'm pretty sure they really don't care about or fear any government enity.

I'll just stop here....

Edited March 19, 2012 by Metric-man

[Shelby]

first off the statement WE ARE DEPENDENT ON IMPORT'D OIL is a lie pure and simple , the only reason we are so today is so the oil companys can make more money #1 buy import'd oil to keep the price up ,,,sell this fuel to the highest bidder , this keeps the fuel costs up here also , when you resell out of country (export) nearly what you import your only manufacturing price rises for your self no one else

 

also what most don't bother to think about , oil out of the ground right here in our back yard ,,is NOT our oil we have to buy it from a foriegn county , how the heck is this posible , i was under the impression a countrys natural resourses belong'd to the people of that country , if it was sold i don't recall being ask'd if i want'd to sell it nor did i ever recive one penny for it's sale ,

but i am reward'd each time i stop at a gas station

 

 

question how many shiping ports does the united states OWN arround the world , NONE

we don't even own our own ports

[Fanta]

Mazda and Ford are moving towards that direction though with the Mazda 2 and Fiesta

[Metric-man]

first off the statement WE ARE DEPENDENT ON IMPORT'D OIL is a lie pure and simple , the only reason we are so today is so the oil companys can make more money #1 buy import'd oil to keep the price up ,,,sell this fuel to the highest bidder , this keeps the fuel costs up here also , when you resell out of country (export) nearly what you import your only manufacturing price rises for your self no one else

 

also what most don't bother to think about , oil out of the ground right here in our back yard ,,is NOT our oil we have to buy it from a foriegn county , how the heck is this posible , i was under the impression a countrys natural resourses belong'd to the people of that country , if it was sold i don't recall being ask'd if i want'd to sell it nor did i ever recive one penny for it's sale ,

but i am reward'd each time i stop at a gas station

 

 

question how many shiping ports does the united states OWN arround the world , NONE

we don't even own our own ports

Shelby I think you meant we have fewer ships than we did even though they are used for exports to foriegn countries the ships sail under and are not US flagged vessels

 

http://en.wikipedia....characteristics

 

Here is a list of US Ports

http://en.wikipedia....ates_of_America

 

Maritime Law is one of the oldest forms of Law

and is what most laws are based from.

 

These are laws regarding shipping and flagged vessels in US ports.

 

Merchant Marine Act of 1920

http://en.wikipedia....ine_Act_of_1920

 

Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886

http://en.wikipedia....ces_Act_of_1886

[Chad]

We americans aren't being screwed, we americans are screwing ourselves. As long as we choose to buy cars that get >20 MPG and trucks that get >15 MPG, those kinds of cars will be bought and sold here.

 

The moment we change direction and stop buying those kinds of cars is the same moment they will stop being produced. There are cars here that get great MPG here, they just don't sell. That is americas fault, not a fault of the the industry that makes them. They make what we buy, period. Same as any other industry.

[Metric-man]

When we bought our cars gas wasn't close to $5 dollars a gallon,

and the marketing studies are based on previous sales figures.

 

We should have all bought Delorean time machines then we would have these problems.

 

http://en.wikipedia....an_time_machine