AFR's way too rich, 10.0:1 and richer. Need help!

[Dodge2004srt4]

Are you running the ecu checker led light? It should be solid on after 10 min or so of driving. If not then count the flashes and fix th issue corresponding to the code given.

No Im not, it took me forever to find the connector b/c I thought it was just loose behind the glove box when its vertical near the illumination lamp. Ill do that, I have an LED just for that but I havent made up a plug for it.

 

have you check'd the dist advance curve up to 3500 or so , a non advanceing dist can cause the engine to hit a stone wall also

 

you can also get false 02 (lean) readings from too much fuel , not a easy to do with a wide band but certianly do able

 

it's also posible the ecu may have a problem or the TPS is not showing the wot signal to it

my money i'd place on cam out of time or dist not advanceing far enought , but to find the answer ALL sub systems of the fuel and ign system must be test'd and in working order

Ill double check the dist vac advance again, I may have just done the unplug method, I need to buy a vacuum pump so I dont have to borrow another one again. Its definitely a real lean, cause I am getting some stellar MPG now, Im just worried about it being too lean cause lately the coolant temps are higher than normal and its 35 degrees out where as before it was 60+ before the injectors were put in.

 

Chris.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Dodge2004srt4

[Shelby]

the mechanical adv is not the vac advance unit,, you use a timeing light to watch the ign tmeing change as the engine is rev'd , should be full advance'd by 3500 rpms,,

how do you know where 35btdc is,, you turn the crank pully to 10 btdc and make a mark at 10atdc , make sure it's seeable with timeing light, now when rev'd and full advance the mark you just made should read

5btdc , thats 20 plus 10 (base timeing ) and 5 ='s 35 btdc

max ign advance for stock system is 36-38 btdc, max advance depends on many things in the real world, fuel octane , boost lbs etc

Edited April 1, 2011 by Shelby

[The Rabbit1]

do you have a t-stat in this thing? just to double check..

[Dodge2004srt4]

do you have a t-stat in this thing? just to double check..

Yes its either a 180 or 160, not sure since I didnt put it in.

[Dodge2004srt4]

Got the 750cc installed today, idle AFR is now 15.5-16.5

Still having complete fuel cut at 4500-5000. AF gauge shows good AFR up till cut and then it shows in the 19's like there is no fuel being injected. Only thing I know that drives the injectors is the ECU, wondering if that could be bad.

 

Still have to check advance Shelby.

[StarquestRescue]

If you have the 7 pin 1st gen mas is the honeycomb still in the meter inlet and the bypass tubes?

[Scotty Dont]

I still don't see why you haven't checked your codes yet!

[Dodge2004srt4]

If you have the 7 pin 1st gen mas is the honeycomb still in the meter inlet and the bypass tubes?

Yes, its not hacked

 

I still don't see why you haven't checked your codes yet!

Too cold sir! And raining all week. Will do this weekend.

[Caliber308]

Yes, its not hacked

 

 

Too cold sir! And raining all week. Will do this weekend.

 

Install a MAF-T set up, do some A/F adjusting and be done with it. Before you blow the hell out of your engine from running it too lean. I have ran the 1st Gen MAS set up on my car. Here's the problem.....There is no way to adjust the Air/Fuel Ratios...Take that as you may.

 

Bill

Edited April 2, 2011 by Caliber308

[Indiana]

What FPR do you have?

[Caliber308]

What FPR do you have?

 

ME?

 

Bill

[Dodge2004srt4]

Install a MAF-T set up, do some A/F adjusting and be done with it. Before you blow the hell out of your engine from running it too lean. I have ran the 1st Gen MAS set up on my car. Here's the problem.....There is no way to adjust the Air/Fuel Ratios...Take that as you may.

 

Bill

I want to, but I either need to sell some stuff or get a job which has not been easy since Ive been out for 2 years. First thing getting done when I have income.

 

What FPR do you have?

Stock, working as it should.

[Scotty Dont]

He shouldn't do anything until he check his codes, wt.... is wrong with you guys??????

[Caliber308]

He shouldn't do anything until he check his codes, wt.... is wrong with you guys??????

 

Will it still show error code no.3 with a 1st gen MAS?

 

Bill

[Scotty Dont]

Who knows what it will show until he checks them.

[Indiana]

Get a stand alone FPR then very shortly after decide which to order, the SAFC or MAFT. There's nothing wrong with your car other than not having OEM injectors that's causing the lean idle because of the different spray angle and heated 02. People have to raise the base pressure to use those. What you're going to find out is when you actually drive the car under boost and hit 15psi at 3000rpms the car is going to be so pig rich it won't run without those BUR7EA plugs back in there but you'll have plenty of fuel to run that little 16g up to 6000rpms but not SUSTAIN it there for long. Pumping up the FPR with a hand pump and watching a gauge show that same increase in pressure isn't the same as when its driving and the fuel demand is there because that little pissy stock regulator can not put hold higher pressures it was not made for. Once its reached it max movement that's all you get no matter how much boost pressure you push to it. You'll end up increasing the boost to at least 20psi but you're going to need a fuel translator. Been done so many times already. You're trying to find a problem you don't have. The problem you did have was that air filter not letting the air get sucked in to meter it. Below are two examples of what happens when trying to "tune" a stock ECU if you want to call it that with fuel pressure since that's ALL you can do. THEY SUCK for modded cars no matter what you do to them when nothing is wrong other than the turbo is too big or the boost is too high.

 

 

This is with stock cleaned injectors, 1G MAF, stock fuel pump and stock cam w/hydraulic lifters, OS valves and enlarged throttle plate. An Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator, stock intercooler (had no fan on it actually so it was doing NOTHING except being a restriction) and stock ignition w/BPR7ES plugs. Its also using a header which helped the most but that has no effect on the ECU which is the point I'm trying to make here.

 

 

Here's that little 16G turbo without that stock FPR but set at stock base pressure and boost at ~15psi. Look at the starting RPMs and the air/fuel, its too rich just as soon at the boost is made then it starts to lean out at the end. If you start out in 1st and max out your RPMs in every gear you won't notice being rich as bad but if you are in a higher gear at mid rpms and just mash the gas it will puke rich on you.

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/238.9.jpg

 

Changed from a stock cam to a TimC "launch" cam and mechanical rockers. Base fuel pressure up to ~45psi, started at lower RPMS but it still pukes rich then pulls through but it goes lean at the high end. The stock ECU can't fire those stock stock sized injectors fast enough to get any more fuel.

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/dyno2.jpg

 

Now the crappy pig rich readings from the 02 after the boost was on causes the air fuel to dip down into the 9s, this was BEFORE we were using those BUR7EA plugs, had we used those plugs this might not have been so jumpy because at that level they still don't misfire. Point is, not matter what you do the ECU can't do what you want it to. You aren't seeing it as rich because the stock FPR can't increase the pressure up where you have your boost set to. When the boost pressure is there and the fuel pressure increase stopped 4psi before your boost increase did you will lean out FAST. First thing is you ditch that stock fuel pressure regulator. Its good for NOTHING PAST STOCK BOOST PRESSURES. Then you'll find out how rich you end up at mid rpms and decide its time for a fuel translator. If you go with a MAFT it won't matter what that MAF is doing, if you use a SAFC then you still need to have that air filter where its not having air blasting into the side of it and that's usually right into the bypass tubes. Even if you flip it around the air blowing into the side of the filter just swirls around the filter and goes in from the other side but the air is supposed to go into the bottom of the MAF and not be FORCED through the filter, its supposed to be SUCKED through the filter. With the MAFT it won't matter, stick a hood scoop on it.

 

 

 

[StarquestRescue]

This is a 17c car, stock fuel pressure, stock regulator car. I believe it had a hacked 1 g mas on it. I think the last pull was clouse to 20 psi. Sounds like the op is running out of fuel even earlier and more dramatically than even this example. I consider 240 about the safe limit (11.75 afr) of stock sized injectors.

 

The translator would be a good move. An afc is only as good as the mas signal that feeds it. I have data logs showing the 1g mas signal going hay wire at these power levels.

 

You can put a 4 channel data logger on these car for about $150, assuming you have access to a lap top. There has been a rash of these lean threads lately. Data logging is the key to figure out what is really going on.

 

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/9b481c6d.jpg

[StarquestRescue]

These cars should go full lean when decelerating with your foot of the gas pedal. If it is not than the nose switch on the isc is not working, That can cause some really odd problems, especially if the isc motor position signal is out of whack. I know you did an isc reset, but the procedure does not really stressed the importance of verifies the nose switch operation. It is some times necessary to reset the isc after an injector size change or maft or afc change to improve the idle quality. Like already mentioned a isc, tps or rpm code needs to be investigated.

 

The mas is the main input to determine injector pulse with. Here is an example of the mas signal dropping off for no reason and taking the duty cycle south and the afr north. This scenario usually produces a big buck. Power shuts off and comes back on.

 

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/Fuelcut.jpg

 

This is a full blown load based fuel cut.

 

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/E85fuelcut.jpg

[Dodge2004srt4]

IF Im doing this right Im getting an o2 code. Even with the car fully warmed up. My multimeter says anywhere from 44mV to 101mV from the o2 sensor. I looked at the thread on how to check codes and someone mentioned there were only 5 pins and only 1 pin in the top row. I have 2 in the top row, and 5 in the bottom row. I checked all the pins for ground and found one, then checked all the pins for any pulsing or constant voltage and found 2. One flashed slowish the other was a little more rapid. But both were a consistent flash with an even break between them.

 

I let the car run until the rad fans kicked on so it should have been warmed up enough.

Im going to order a new o2 to replace this one as its obviously defective, and its less than a month old.

[Scotty Dont]

DRIVE THE CAR AROUND FIRST, with a bigger exhaust and no cats the o2 sensor may take longer to warm up.

[Dodge2004srt4]

DRIVE THE CAR AROUND FIRST, with a bigger exhaust and no cats the o2 sensor may take longer to warm up.

I had it idling at 2000 for 30 mins.....still not enough?

[Indiana]

Wait a minute I thought you had a WB 02? Its sweeping while at cruise so its working. If the ECU didn't see it as hot it wouldn't be sweeping the air fuel rich lean rich lean at all. It won't sweep at idle or wide open throttle, the TPS voltage will determine this. You have a second 02 sensor for the ECU? It still must be working or you wouldn't be seeing the sweep while the throttle is steady.

[Caliber308]

I looked at the thread on how to check codes and someone mentioned there were only 5 pins and only 1 pin in the top row. I have 2 in the top row, and 5 in the bottom row.

Im going to order a new o2 to replace this one as its obviously defective, and its less than a month old.

 

Look in the 1987 Starion FSM Volume no.1 pages 14-61 to 14-62. It shows you exactly where to hook up the analog voltmeter to the Self-diagnosis output harness on page 14-61. Page 14-62 has the Diagnosis Chart. Stop replacing parts!!!! Don't forget this: Every time you throw codes out and read them, you have to clear them by disconnecting the neg. terminal on the battery for at least 15 seconds.

 

Bill

[Dodge2004srt4]

Look in the 1987 Starion FSM Volume no.1 pages 14-61 to 14-62. It shows you exactly where to hook up the analog voltmeter to the Self-diagnosis output harness on page 14-61. Page 14-62 has the Diagnosis Chart. Stop replacing parts!!!! Don't forget this: Every time you throw codes out and read them, you have to clear them by disconnecting the neg. terminal on the battery for at least 15 seconds.

 

Bill

This o2 will be a free replacement, Im only replacing it because its not within specs anymore. .04-.1V isnt even close to what the ECU needs to see when its a full 0-1V range.

 

I checked the codes correctly, found the page in my 89 manual.

[Dodge2004srt4]

Wait a minute I thought you had a WB 02? Its sweeping while at cruise so its working. If the ECU didn't see it as hot it wouldn't be sweeping the air fuel rich lean rich lean at all. It won't sweep at idle or wide open throttle, the TPS voltage will determine this. You have a second 02 sensor for the ECU? It still must be working or you wouldn't be seeing the sweep while the throttle is steady.

I see it moving the same way at idle and cruise. Varies about 2 AFR ranges. Might not be working after all but that wouldnt cause my lean at WOT. Last night it was 12's lean as soon as I hit boost at 3000 RPM's. Im getting ahold of another 1G MAF tomorrow, going to try it out, if it doesnt change anything I have someone who needs one anyway so no money wasted. According to the FSM it only checks the MAF at idle to throw a code. "Output is 10Hz or less while engine is at idle".

Edited April 3, 2011 by Dodge2004srt4