AFR's way too rich, 10.0:1 and richer. Need help!

[The Rabbit1]

so, I'm guessing the reason you are going lean is because of boost creep.

 

I'm guessing the reason your going so rich is because all the air out of the s16g..

 

sounds like you need a maft or something to tune your fuel for the added air.

[Indiana]

Its the air can lid. 1" isn't enough. If that's also the cone it tapers down and almost touches the sides near the bottom making it worse. All the air the engine sucks in must get to that crack then change directions and get sucked in. Under boost it starts sucking in more and more and more and it will draw from the easier path. It was lean because it was drawing too much through the bypass tubes instead because they are further up the side and the air gets there first. At idle with little vacuum there's as much sucking through the bypass tubes as being metered. Edited March 29, 2011 by Indiana

[RobH]

how did you boost leak test the car

 

this sounds like the typical boost leak (losing metered air = run rich)

if your car runs fine under a no boost condition then under boost rich

 

this would be my bet

 

if you have access to a smoke machine this would be the easiest way to leak check it

[Dodge2004srt4]

Well the car no longer runs pig rich I fixed that, so now its just lean at idle, cruise, decel, and above 4500. To solve the idle, cruise, and decel I think I need a 750cc primary instead. I assume we are talking about the mount for the MAF? It is off a 1st Gen DSM as well. Im not running the housing or the lid, just the mount, MAF and filter for a 1st Gen DSM.

[Indiana]

With the 1G MAF, you MUST be using this air can lid.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/thetexan88/Powdercoated%20Mitsu%20Parts/P1010029.jpg

 

K&N makes two cone filters but one was for a kit they sold for DSMs called a filtercharger intake kit and it had a mounting bracket, some clamps, a cone filter and a tube to replace the accordian hose. The filter was made for using a stock DSM MAF with it. There was also a metal ring that took place of the lip of the filter can so the clamps on the lid had something to clip too.

 

A Conquest lid won't work with either cone filter properly, the clips don't work and the shape is different unless you bend the clips and you can flex the filter to get the shape better and the lid being flush on top is about two inches shorter for the MAF if it were in the can and the DSM MAF is longer and the seal won't work so I've seen foam to weatherstriping to get one to seal up.

 

K&N sells the separate cone filter with the rubber end its usually about 45.00.

 

If I understand you correctly, you have the original Conquest air can lid which is flat on top but removed the Conquest MAF from it and screwed on the 1G MAF, or someone has, and then two or 4 bolt holes need enlarged because only two of the 6 line up and the plug hole enlarged. Now if this is used with the DSM K&N cone filter, since K&N never has made a cone filter for a Conquest, your MAF honeycomb end is almost in direct contact with the end of that filter on the inside and has nothing around the edges and the filter as I remember is mashed in the 4 corners to get that to stick in there because it tapers down and there's no air being sucked in from the end of the filter only that tiny bit of media around the end cap. It would sort of work for a stock setup and lower boost but when that end of the filter got hot and the boost was high its so close to the end it blocks off the metered entry.

 

This was done many times in the old days. People bought 1G MAF as a common thing to change thinking it made some difference but it was working better since their old Conquest had the cardboard all soaked up with oil and it throws off the MAF reading and ends up with less fuel being delivered. The sound waves in a DRY cardboard lining MAF still works like it should and almost every one of the turbo DSMs in the junkyard had a MAF they could rob but threw away the lid or never got it, it was likely harder to hide in the toolbox with the lid on it. Then came the cone filters because some used to just cut a bunch of holes in the air can. That DSM MAF remaining in the air can and since they had no oil separator that over time let some oil run back down into the MAF, the DSM MAFs were never sucking up oil to contaminate that cardboard liner that was absorbing the stray sound waves. DSMs aren't in junkyards with that complete K&N kit because its used to be almost 200.00. If the cardboard liner is removed the MAF is ruined same as if the honeycomb is removed. K&N filters have been popular for a long time and all are oiled. That oil is absorbed by that liner slowly and the MAF is degraded as the signal gets screwy.

 

You can't run a MAF out in the free air either that really screws up the air trying to enter the honeycomb.

 

 

57-5500 kit

 

http://www.knfilters.com/images/l/57-5500.jpg

 

 

The replacement cone filter is just a rubber end, not the pretty chrome one with the chrome cap in the complete kit shown above.

 

EVOs and 2G DSMs are now using a cone filter but its more an oval cone but there are issues with this and the metered readings.

 

A link from RPW about air flow sensors and how the air filter works along with it

 

http://www.rpw.com.a...cchk=1&Itemid=3

 

 

Quote from RPWs site in the above referenced link:

Certain models of the Mitsubishi range run the Mitsubishi MAS / MAF sensor which is an the electrical metering unit that goes after the air box. This unit reads how much air passes through the unit via ultrasonic waves and is a oval shaped unit. One of the major problems we see is the fitment of universal "Pod Filters" which then start creating problems with idle or power by running rich, stalling etc.

The reasoning behind this is the honeycombed section requires the air flow to be very straight and clean in order to be read correctly. A pod filter is cone shaped and instead, causes a swirling action which confuses the pod filter. Additionally many of the adapters fitted to the MAF / MAS sensor is square and cuts off some of honeycombed section in order to bolt on the round pod filter.

To combat this RPW has imported in from the USA specific K&N filter charger kits that are 100% compatible with the MAS sensor without causing problems. These are flat oval shaped filters with a proper cast adapter. To quote a common term : If K&N believed that a universal filter would do the job why did they make a specific filter for the Mitsubishi Air Mass Sensor.

These are guaranteed to not only improve the power of your car over any other filter design, they will not cause any running problems and are our recommended first modification to the vehicle, even before the exhaust.

This has been tested time after time again, we see at least 1 - 2 vehicles a week coming through our workshop where we replace there "Universal Rampod" with the specific K&N unit and the car immediately idles better, pulls harder and provides better fuel economy.

This is not supplied with any mounting brackets, these will be required to be made on the vehicle when installed. RPW Recommends for most vehicles, to retain the front half of the original air box to act as a heat shield from the exhaust system.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Indiana

[Dodge2004srt4]

To sum it up if I count how many bolts there are then I should know if it is a hacked SQ can or a DSM can lid? Or if I see 6 then I need to see if it was drilled and cut in any way....Ill look tomorrow. Mine definitely looks like that one, just have to see about the hacking or not. Ive got 3 clips and the filter fit the can lid like a glove. Didnt need to use any extra stripping or seals, just fix one mangled clip and ditch the foam someone used instead of bending the clip back to original shape. Ill just have to grab the lid from a SQ and compare tomorrow. Enough with thinking tonight, it hurts!!!

 

Thanks for the very detailed post Indiana!

[Indiana]

They both have 6 bolt just that only two line up and two others are close and two are off. If they used the ring from the DSM lids plug you can't tell that part. A stock Conquest lid is just flat on top with the circular part to attach the accordian hose too. That DSM one has two raised portions.

[Dodge2004srt4]

They both have 6 bolt just that only two line up and two others are close and two are off. If they used the ring from the DSM lids plug you can't tell that part. A stock Conquest lid is just flat on top with the circular part to attach the accordian hose too. That DSM one has two raised portions.

I think I see what you mean, the lid makes the MAF sit in the recess deeper so the filter sits farther out. I still havent looked outside cause old man winter seems to have stuck around. May have to take a trip over to the u pull it and grab a lid if I can find any DSM's in there.

[Shelby]

Well the car no longer runs pig rich I fixed that, so now its just lean at idle, cruise, decel, and above 4500. To solve the idle, cruise, and decel I think I need a 750cc primary instead. I assume we are talking about the mount for the MAF? It is off a 1st Gen DSM as well. Im not running the housing or the lid, just the mount, MAF and filter for a 1st Gen DSM.

 

 

so what was the fix for the "pig rich runing "

[Scotty Dont]

Decel should be off the chart lean and cruise is ok to be 14.5 or leaner as long as it doesn't cause a bucking issue.

[Dodge2004srt4]

so what was the fix for the "pig rich runing "

I just threw a wrench at her and she quit back talking me!

No, I spaced out the filter from the MAF in case it was sucking the filter end on the MAF opening. I adjusted the BOV harder so it open sharper and less chance in staying open. I tightened all the clamps on the charge pipes more than they were even though I had no leaks sitting still in case when the engine torqued something got tugged on. I cleaned off all the terminals and connectors plus put some dielectric grease on the connections for all the coolant temp sensors, all 3. Im not sure which one of all of it fixed it but it is fixed.

 

As far as the MAF lid goes mine looks identical to the one pictured. I saw a NA DSM MAF lid at the boneyard today and it was nearly flat, so I know I have the right one.

 

I have a 750cc injector on the way for my primary cause right now its running lean at idle, cruise and decel. Even with the air filter off the MAF so its not restricted. Car runs good AFR in boost below 4500 and pulls hard so there is no restriction, just above 4500 it leans out still. Im looking into getting a GM MAF and translator soon so I can do some coarse adjustments to the top end WOT. Maybe also an AFC for fine tuning. Have to see how the 750 acts first and get some income.

[Dodge2004srt4]

Decel should be off the chart lean and cruise is ok to be 14.5 or leaner as long as it doesn't cause a bucking issue.

When I got the car and it was running good the AFR at cruise, idle and decel was right at 14.7:1 sometime decel was a little leaner. Its 16.5-18 at idle and cruise, then decel its 19-20 or leaner. It does buck sometimes when it on the extreme end of lean at idle and decel. I havent noticed it buck at cruise. Brian at lower shores said it should be around 13.5-14.5 at cruise/idle, Id be happy with 14.7 or slightly leaner for fuel economy but hitting 17-18 is just balls lean to me.

[Scotty Dont]

No fuel should be injected during decel, did you check the closed throttle switch?

[Shelby]

if your a/f stays steady at any time durring cruise your not geting a true signal ,the ecu is hunting the proper fuel mix so the mix should be going rich to lean very fast makeing a steady reading almost imposible but this hunting is normal and the way things are supose'd to work ,,now if this is from a wide band meter it may not be as quick as it needs to be,, it should be showing almost the same thing as the ecu is seeing , hunting durring cruise and steady under load

[Caliber308]

 

 

The car ran a 13.6 @ 100 by the previous owner, I have the slips.....so it is definitely something gone wrong now, not when the car was modded.

 

Thanks

And my car runs:00.00@000. Tell us something that will help!! What size are your Primary and Secondary Injectors? Do you have a Adjustable RRFPR?What is your Fuel Pressure reading, at idle and on boost?What Size and Gap Spark Plugs are you running? Do you have a Wideband O-2 Gauge? If it is running that rich i'll venture to guess that it is a Injector problem.STUCK WIDE OPEN!!!If it is running too lean I'd guess fuel starved by way of the Fuel pump or Injectors. Now, what is your FP reading. At Idle and on Boost?

 

Bill

Edited March 30, 2011 by Caliber308

[Dodge2004srt4]

And my car runs:00.00@000. Tell us something that will help!! What size are your Primary and Secondary Injectors? Do you have a Adjustable RRFPR?What is your Fuel Pressure reading, at idle and on boost?What Size and Gap Spark Plugs are you running? Do you have a Wideband O-2 Gauge? If it is running that rich i'll venture to guess that it is a Injector problem.STUCK WIDE OPEN!!!If it is running too lean I'd guess fuel starved by way of the Fuel pump or Injectors. Now, what is your FP reading. At Idle and on Boost?

 

Bill

If you started from the beginning and read until the end you wouldnt be asking me these questions.....

You read one part of one post out of the 2 pages and figured Im giving time slip info and nothing else......

Only thing I didnt post just to answer the one part that isnt answered are the plugs. Im running NGK BPR8ES-11 at .039 gap. Any other NGK plug runs like s***, gapped smaller, runs like s***, larger, same deal. NGK wires too. All new within 5,000 miles.

[Dodge2004srt4]

Everyone says injectors are my problem, or many have said that. PLEASE stop recommending injectors, I just bought some new Delphi replacements and it didnt help with a damn thing! I just threw away $160 for some pretty polished injectors and I still have the same problems.

 

Lets sum this up for anyone skipping to the end.

Car runs out of fuel now around 4500, has since day 1 and even after new injectors. Boost is near 15psi on a 16G turbo. 8:1 compression. FP at idle 36-37psi FP during boost 50-52psi. NEW 650cc and 950cc injectors. Correct 1G turbo MAF and can (verified pics and part numbers), wired correctly. Checked the coolant temp sensor. New Ignition products, timing dead on, vac advance working, FPR working, new o2 sensor. Tell me what else controls fuel delivery if you know and Ill check that too.

[Dodge2004srt4]

Lets try asking some questions instead.

 

1. How do I tell if the secondary injector was wired backwards? Both wires on the harness are the same color even though the FSM states they have a different colored tracer? The injector fires or under boost I would always be lean or the car would shut down, Ive unplugged it and drove 10 feet before the car lost power completely.

 

2. What about the fuel injector resistor/diode or whatever it is called depending on where you look in the FSM or a post? If its bad will any of the injectors work/not work or will they just work poorly?

[The Rabbit1]

Lets try asking some questions instead.

 

1. How do I tell if the secondary injector was wired backwards? Both wires on the harness are the same color even though the FSM states they have a different colored tracer? The injector fires or under boost I would always be lean or the car would shut down, Ive unplugged it and drove 10 feet before the car lost power completely.

 

2. What about the fuel injector resistor/diode or whatever it is called depending on where you look in the FSM or a post? If its bad will any of the injectors work/not work or will they just work poorly?

1. switch them around and you'll find out.

 

2. you wouldn't idle or make it past 2400 rpm.

 

3. A 750 injector isn't going to help because the primary isn't your problem because your car cruises just fine.. which is when it runs on.. the primary.

[Indiana]

Lets sum this up for anyone skipping to the end.

Car runs out of fuel now around 4500, has since day 1 and even after new injectors. Boost is near 15psi on a 16G turbo. 8:1 compression. FP at idle 36-37psi FP during boost 50-52psi. NEW 650cc and 950cc injectors. Correct 1G turbo MAF and can (verified pics and part numbers), wired correctly. Checked the coolant temp sensor. New Ignition products, timing dead on, vac advance working, FPR working, new o2 sensor. Tell me what else controls fuel delivery if you know and Ill check that too.

Now I think you're just out of fuel. You fixed the air filter problem and you're out of the way too rich 10:1 stuff. The BUR7EA plug is identical to the BPR7ES plug in every way except for its tip design allowing it to continue firing in overly rich conditions. Its not the plugs fault that it is burning the fuel up instead of letting it halfburn with the plug you have now so it was going lean earlier or was misfiring and was blowing fuel out into the exhaust. You had other issues that as you say using them caused the engine to run like S*** since the BUR7EA plugs did ignite the fuel and burn more of it in the combustion process in the cylinders. You could go a little further with OEM injectors either with boost psi or with rpms and the boost will get you increased fuel pressure but that isn't working well at the mid range rpms, especially with those BPR7ES fouled out misfiring plugs until you mash the gap down to 60% of where its supposed to be meaning you are trying to correct your problem with a plug gap....wrong solution but the all too common and popular one. The secondary you have now is smaller than OEM. The useage of the primary which you now have as larger than OEM installed will help at mid range rpms with high boost but now that's working against you at high rpms since the ECU drops the firing of the primary down the higher the rpms go. See the graph in the FSM page below.

 

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/14-13.jpg

 

You are at the limit of how much fuel the ECU can put out for that turbo at that boost psi at that rpm range and SUSTAIN it. You can't just push more and more and expect that ECU to do what you want it to. Its time for a fuel translator or lower the boost. If what you said the last time is true then I don't see anything wrong now. Don't think the ECU can pulse out the fuel for 5000+rpms for that turbo at 15psi and stay there because it won't happen and hasn't for anyone else.

 

Doesn't matter which way injectors are wired they are just a solenoid and its not dependent on polarity.

 

The injector resistor pack. Its one resistor so it either works or doesn't.

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/injresistor.jpg

 

There's another thing you can try before you decide to buy a SAFC or MAFT. You can partially block off one or both of the bypass tubes in the MAF. Having a larger filter like the oval stock filter in the air can that doesn't have air blasting into the side of it might have more entering the honeycomb. Doing that will cause more flow to be metered and may provide additional fuel. Given the non OEM injector you have as 950 when its said that the OEM is 1050 or 1150 depending on who answers and when, that's over 10% less fuel delivery over OEM. When you get the nice place for the stock ECU with the turbo size and boost psi, and you're at the most popular choice turbo and psi some just stop there. If you push further and increase base pressure or get a FPR that can push past 15-20+ additional pressure over base then you end up pig rich at those mid rpms from the high fuel pressure from the boost psi so you have the misfiring issues again. You still end up having to get a fuel translator and you can with what you have now its just what you want to do with it.

[Dodge2004srt4]

Even with the stock injectors in there I was running lean up top. Before I had the rich condition. That was what prompted me to buy the fuel pressure gauge so I could see if my pump was the culprit or pressure related. Ive heard of guys running the stock fuel system and injectors with a 20g larger turbo at the same or higher boost pressures and not being lean up top.

 

Since I switched to the Delphi 650/950 Im running lean at idle/cruise....its bucking, so Im getting the 750cc for the primary to see if that helps the idle/cruise smooth out like it was before. Im not sure if Brian at LSP is going to want to keep swapping injectors for me until the car's AFR are complacent throughout the range, but I can only ask.

 

There was a SQ for sale out in OH months back running a 57trim turbo and used dual 750cc injectors. I never understood why the car was running them, and it was not mentioned in the long list of mods a RRFPR. I didnt get that car cause the guy always had some reason we couldnt talk, or he wouldnt return phone calls. I got about 10 mins out of him, and wasnt going to fly out to buy a car if I couldnt get basic questions answered.

[Shelby]

i was hopeing you'd answer my question about your a/f meter,, if the ecu is not hunting fuel mix at cruise it means the ecu is in open loop and NOT controling fuel mix by 02 signal , and open loop id not some thing you can tune in with out a programable ecu , understand fuel mix at cruise and idle are seperate fuel mix's from under load and boost

[Dodge2004srt4]

i was hopeing you'd answer my question about your a/f meter,, if the ecu is not hunting fuel mix at cruise it means the ecu is in open loop and NOT controling fuel mix by 02 signal , and open loop id not some thing you can tune in with out a programable ecu , understand fuel mix at cruise and idle are seperate fuel mix's from under load and boost

Sorry there were a bunch of posts when I got on and I missed some. They slow down the display rate of the Autometer wideband so you can see the numbers more clearly and its not a nuisance driving with it changing. It does hunt, it doesnt just stay at a certain AFR. Before the richness it would bounce between 14.0-15.5, now its bouncing from 16.5-18.5

If I just tap the accelerator pedal it will jump richer, or on decel/cruise I can change how much or little throttle and it changes AFR. Not talking about accelerating but from holding the speed steady to engine braking, the position in between can alter the AFR somewhat. Ive checked the o2 output voltage on the 1 wire and it jumped around like a narrowband would normally read rich, lean rich, lean. When I gave it steady throttle it was staying closer to .58V and moving slightly but keeping around that number, matching the wideband in terms of AFR at the time I took the V reading.

 

Under boost (3rd gear pull) it stays steady starting at 10.x:1 and progressing to 12.0 then around 4500 just jumps way lean to 16's. Now if I do say a 2nd gear pull or 1st gear it will only go as lean as 12-13, every now and then though Ill punch it in low gears and it will hit a wall, look over and the gauge said it went lean like 3rd would do.

 

My knock box was replaced with a junkyard one, I can see yellow painted writing on it, maybe I need to test that and the sensor? I know the retard kicks in I can feel that but I wonder if its doing it prematurely or there is a bad/loose/broken connection that throws the ECU off when there are vibrations from high RPM's.

 

Im going to start checking the ignition and knock areas for any wires that look bad broken or just not right.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Dodge2004srt4

[Scotty Dont]

Are you running the ecu checker led light? It should be solid on after 10 min or so of driving. If not then count the flashes and fix th issue corresponding to the code given.

[Shelby]

have you check'd the dist advance curve up to 3500 or so , a non advanceing dist can cause the engine to hit a stone wall also

 

you can also get false 02 (lean) readings from too much fuel , not a easy to do with a wide band but certianly do able

 

it's also posible the ecu may have a problem or the TPS is not showing the wot signal to it

my money i'd place on cam out of time or dist not advanceing far enought , but to find the answer ALL sub systems of the fuel and ign system must be test'd and in working order