Apache Pilots Fire on Camera Men

[chiplee]

If all of what you suggest happened in a vacuum yes, maybe.

 

I'm not sure I follow you. You think cultural shift can only happen in a vacuum? I think cultural stagnation happens in a vacuum. It's when we get out of the vacuum; when we get exposure to other cultures and when we get held accountable for the actions of members of our culture that we grow and become more tolerant and flexible. The vacuum reference really throws me off.

 

This requires success using human nature to takeover whatever culture, and a near perfect record. We can't assure either one let alone both. Stuff's gonna happen.

 

Completely lost by this. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

I think it's us man. If we want to run a hyperpower this is how it is. Endless war and an ever larger footprint. More enemies found! lol.

 

You know

 

No, I don't know. I think ours is the only powerful, truly tolerant and open minded government on the face of the earth. Like it or not, the United States is the earth's single best hope for freedom and tolerance for all people. Face it. Our government has separated church and state. They have inextricably tied religion to government. Whoever is "in power" will want to spread force their world view on others. It just so happens that our world view is right and theirs is wrong. We want everyone to be able to worship as they see fit. They want everyone to worship Allah or die. Perhaps if they were a bit less tolerant of intolerance in their own society, we wouldn't have to come police their streets for them. We don't "want to be a hyperpower", we have to be a hyper power, whatever that is. If we aren't the most capable country on the earth, that means someone else is. Who would you like to see replace us as the most influential and capable country on earth? Everyone wants to have it both ways. They want us to be out of everyone's business, and everyone to be out of our business. It doesn't work that way.

Edited December 4, 2010 by chiplee

[DieHARDmitsu.]

What does that even mean?

 

 

 

Are you implying that the wars caused them to hit rock bottom? Do you even know what you're implying or are you just trying to imply things that sound deep and meaningful?

 

 

 

So what? You live in a representative republic. In that system of government, BIG decisions aren't put to popular votes. They are decided by elected officials. It never ceases to amaze me how much people think their opinion of something should change the way politicians act. You get to vote for a new guy if you don't like the way the current guy acts. That's it.

 

 

 

Again you insinuate that it's because of the war that people are going into foreclosure. Again you insinuate that the government should enact socialist policies and use taxpayer money to bail out individual homeowners. Are you sure you know what you're asking for?

 

 

 

Yes it all seems so simple, doesn't it. Too bad you're not the president.

 

You don't have to be an economist or historian to figure out the direction in which this country is heading. The middle class is dying in case you haven’t noticed.

 

We don't exactly live in a "representative republic" anymore, do we?. Some of those big shots who call themselves representatives often don’t represent the interests of the mass majority.

And as for constitutional rights of this Great Democracy, the Patriot Act is slowly killing most of it.

 

"socialist policies" I'd say its worst than that. Give more billion to the banks so that they can continue to lend then rape the pockets of working class in these tough economic times.

 

Like I stated before "those who have their bread well butter...." will never see the issues from another angle; being comfortably numb often make people partially blind and deaf at the same time.

[Shelby]

question we have a wide cross section of people from many area's of this country , just how many IF any have ever been ask'd to participate in any of these so call'd surveys or polls ,,i'm going out on a limb here and say not ONE

 

 

any man or woman that qualifys as the average $150k or more a yr income that will stand and tell you they can relate to your haveing to fight to find moneys to put food on the table , clothes on their back or a roof over their head for your family is lieing to you , they have no clue.

it may not be their fault but it is what it is

[chiplee]

I can't believe my ears. Now it's the government's problem that the middle class is struggling? What's next? Food stamps and shelters and government cheese? What's this place coming to?

 

And as for your "bread well buttered" comment, I hope that's not supposed to be about me. I grew up in a trailer park with $105/mo rent and a single mom driving a broken down old dodge omni. Any butter than happens to be on my bread was put there by me. I went to a state college that I paid for myself by enlisting in the Marine Corps reserve right out of high school. As far as I know that option is available to just about every young American who isn't disabled in some way. It's true that I have limited sympathy for people who aren't making ends meet in America, but only the lazy ones. I wonder how many of these "struggling" middle class got there by legitimately bad circumstances, and how many just didn't ever inconvenience themselves enough to reach financial stability. That's some "polling" data you'll never see collected.

Edited December 4, 2010 by chiplee

[DieHARDmitsu.]

10 years ago, people didn’t have to struggle as much as they do today; the numbers were less, far less.

"Now its the government's problem that the middle class is struggling" Hell yeah! and the lower class is suffering even more.

The Guys in high office are well off, their decisions don't exactly favor the large portion of people struggling to make ends meet in this country; yet, they still continue to do so.

[Edde]

I'm not sure I follow you. You think cultural shift can only happen in a vacuum? I think cultural stagnation happens in a vacuum. It's when we get out of the vacuum; when we get exposure to other cultures and when we get held accountable for the actions of members of our culture that we grow and become more tolerant and flexible. The vacuum reference really throws me off.

 

 

 

Completely lost by this. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

 

 

No, I don't know. I think ours is the only powerful, truly tolerant and open minded government on the face of the earth. Like it or not, the United States is the earth's single best hope for freedom and tolerance for all people. Face it. Our government has separated church and state. They have inextricably tied religion to government. Whoever is "in power" will want to spread force their world view on others. It just so happens that our world view is right and theirs is wrong. We want everyone to be able to worship as they see fit. They want everyone to worship Allah or die. Perhaps if they were a bit less tolerant of intolerance in their own society, we wouldn't have to come police their streets for them. We don't "want to be a hyperpower", we have to be a hyper power, whatever that is. If we aren't the most capable country on the earth, that means someone else is. Who would you like to see replace us as the most influential and capable country on earth? Everyone wants to have it both ways. They want us to be out of everyone's business, and everyone to be out of our business. It doesn't work that way.

 

 

Let's just say that I'm in for a WOT and always have been but that we see this differently. I can see your view or what I know of it and I get it. It's more important to me that my military officer believes in what he or she is doing than it could ever be for me to challenge it. Surely not here.

 

 

 

 

I can't believe my ears. Now it's the government's problem that the middle class is struggling? What's next? Food stamps and shelters and government cheese? What's this place coming to?

 

And as for your "bread well buttered" comment, I hope that's not supposed to be about me. I grew up in a trailer park with $105/mo rent and a single mom driving a broken down old dodge omni. Any butter than happens to be on my bread was put there by me. I went to a state college that I paid for myself by enlisting in the Marine Corps reserve right out of high school. As far as I know that option is available to just about every young American who isn't disabled in some way. It's true that I have limited sympathy for people who aren't making ends meet in America, but only the lazy ones. I wonder how many of these "struggling" middle class got there by legitimately bad circumstances, and how many just didn't ever inconvenience themselves enough to reach financial stability. That's some "polling" data you'll never see collected.

 

It's bad policy that's making people struggle and they are. There is every reason in the book as to why folks are in trouble. Besides, hunger and exposure are the same to everyone who experiences them. It makes no difference.

[chiplee]

 

It's bad policy that's making people struggle and they are. There is every reason in the book as to why folks are in trouble. Besides, hunger and exposure are the same to everyone who experiences them. It makes no difference.

 

Yep, I still have no sympathy for laziness. I don't doubt that there are people out there who have legitimately given it everything they had in life, just to be let down by the system, but my guess is that they are the exception. We have a lot of people who've gained a sense of entitlement by being raised in a rich country. They're looking for someone to swoop in and save them when times are down without asking how they got in the spot they're in. What specific policy would you fellas like to see changed? Or are you just making a blanket statement that things are bad so it must be the government's fault?

[mistapickles]

All interesting answers but this is the correct one:

 

 

if you watch the 40 minute video, the ground troops found ak-47s and a dead militant with a live rpg shell under his carcas....I don't know what the short video showed, but the long video made many references to weapons and an rpg...sounds like the short video played snippets, but when you watch the whole 40 minutes you see it was justified

[Shelby]

so we -useing one of the deadliest air craft known feel free to kill whom ever is there and unarm'd because of ONE RPG ,,why not level the entire town , some one in it must be an insergent so it'd be fine and there would be no danger to our vastly superior , well protect'd troups

 

what the hell would those guys in that chopper ever do if they had to fight a real arm'd force equip'd same as they are

 

or how about no return fire untill AFTER your fire'd upon meaning the guy with the rpg had to shoot it at you before you could return fire,,

 

incergent with a gun ,sure blow him to h and back,,but no gun NO SHOOT ,

we were sholdiers not crazy'd killers

[chiplee]

so we -useing one of the deadliest air craft known feel free to kill whom ever is there and unarm'd because of ONE RPG

 

Yes, that's exactly what it means.

 

,,why not level the entire town , some one in it must be an insergent so it'd be fine and there would be no danger to our vastly superior , well protect'd troups

 

The United States has spent more money and effort creating precision weapons and targeting capability than the rest of the world's militaries combined. There was a time when we would level cities. Today, if we had it our way, we would have the perfect weapon; a bomb or bullet that knows the mind of the person it's aimed at and only guides fuses and detonates if they are a true enemy. We've fought this war as ethically as humanly possible given the technology available to us, and we've done it at immense cost to ourselves in both loss of life and money. We've accelerated the development of new weapons that would minimize the collateral damage that is part of any war. We didn't have to. We just did. Again, I ask, who else would you rather have placed in our position on the Earth? The ability to identify a better solution after the fact is not exactly impressive.

 

what the hell would those guys in that chopper ever do if they had to fight a real arm'd force equip'd same as they are

 

They would endeavor to outnumber the enemy 3 to 1 and overwhelm them with firepower. This sense you have that a fight should be fair in war is just not true. Unless you want to lose. Much of our current doctrine is based on how poorly the U.S. fought Vietnam, so perhaps your frame of reference isn't consistent with how we fight now.

 

or how about no return fire untill AFTER your fire'd upon meaning the guy with the rpg had to shoot it at you before you could return fire,,

 

incergent with a gun ,sure blow him to h and back,,but no gun NO SHOOT ,

we were sholdiers not crazy'd killers

 

They try that, again to their own peril, but when aircrew have actionable intelligence they fire. Business has to get done.

Edited December 5, 2010 by chiplee

[mistapickles]

I just watched the short version, at 3:43 you can clearly see two or three men with AK-47s and one with an RPG. If those journalists didn't want to look like insurgents they shouldn't have been hanging around with insurgents in an area where American soldiers were being fired upon. I'm sure they could have been inserted into any military group they wanted to, but instead hung out with dudes with AKs. Its called profiling, and it happens in America every day. Out here in the Los Angeles area good kids get killed because they have acquaintances that are in, or look like they are in a gang. Whether they are killed by another gang or police, its still tragic but the kids shouldn't be around those people. You aren't going to ask a cop to get an assessment of whether he's dealing with a church kid when he's dealing with other kids with guns and what not that look exactly the same. It's the same with these journalists, yeah they had cameras, but there were AKs in the group also...the short version shows who the people are, the long version doesn't and is more like real life. When you don't know who they are, they just look like insurgents trying to run away to fight another day.

[Metric-man]

It is not war, The UN DIDNT ALLOW THE US TO GO INTO IRAQ. They didnt seem worried about shooting them. They were eager to shoot them. They arent disguising themselves are civilians, they are civilians defending their country. They arent a trained army is fathers and sons defending their country against an invading force (the US) who want their oil.

 

Oh I get it, your Muslim.

 

And this is your means of waging war.

 

To upset the citizens of the US, and divide us with controversial selective news propaganda.

 

Well you might think we want your oil but that's the only means, your going to have to use to recover from your poverty.

 

The US just liberated your country,

from likes of Saddam any anyone associated with him,

you know the guy who made public killings in the local sports arena popular ?

 

So I can understand why you maybe upset, because your opium addiction is suffering,

because the local supply lines have been cut off because the US has now moved north into Afghanistan.

 

Iran takes all the rest of the trade for their citizens, and the Northern territories diverted their shipments to eastern Europe.

 

It's got to be hard being a militant right now , so I understand why your so upset.

 

We'll find you it's just a matter of time, sit tight and we'll save your soul for Ala too.

 

Maybe you can have some Girl Scout cookies,... you like Bruce Willis you know the guy from Die Hard 1 2 3 and 4 ??

 

He's got lots... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_willis#Military_pursuits

 

Willis has publicly sold Girl Scout cookies for the United States armed forces. In 2002, Willis's youngest daughter, Tallulah, suggested that he purchase Girl Scout cookies to send to troops. Willis purchased 12,000 boxes of cookies, and they were distributed to sailors aboard USS John F. Kennedy and other troops stationed throughout the Middle East at the time

 

I went to Iraq because what I saw when I was over there was soldiers—young kids for the most part—helping people in Iraq; helping getting the power turned back on, helping get hospitals open, helping get the water turned back on and you don't hear any of that on the news. You hear, 'X number of people were killed today,' which I think does a huge disservice. It's like spitting on these young men and women who are over there fighting to help this country

 

 

MMMM Girl Scout cookies are goood!!! http://www.lightningunitedsoccer.org/American-flag-waving.gif

 

you'll find they are way better than any drug, in fact they have a taste a Freedom about them.

[Metric-man]

Wall street journal Dec 6 2010 page A17 print

 

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange hopes to hobble the US government

 

Whatever else WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange has accomplished, he's ended the era of innocent optimism about the Web. As wiki innovator Larry Sanger put it in a message to WikiLeaks, "Speaking as Wikipedia's co-founder, I consider you enemies of the U.S.—not just the government, but the people."

 

The irony is that WikiLeaks' use of technology to post confidential U.S. government documents will certainly result in a less free flow of information. The outrage is that this is Mr. Assange's express intention.

 

 

In 2006, Mr. Assange wrote a pair of essays, "State and Terrorist Conspiracies" and "Conspiracy as Governance." He sees the U.S. as an authoritarian conspiracy. "To radically shift regime behavior we must think clearly and boldly for if we have learned anything, it is that regimes do not want to be changed," he writes. "Conspiracies take information about the world in which they operate," he writes, and "pass it around the conspirators and then act on the result."

 

His central plan is that leaks will restrict the flow of information among officials—"conspirators" in his view—making government less effective. Or, as Mr. Assange puts it, "We can marginalize a conspiracy's ability to act by decreasing total conspiratorial power until it is no longer able to understand, and hence respond effectively to its environment. . . . An authoritarian conspiracy that cannot think efficiently cannot act to preserve itself."

 

Berkeley blogger Aaron Bady last week posted a useful translation of these essays. He explains Mr. Assange's view this way: "While an organization structured by direct and open lines of communication will be much more vulnerable to outside penetration, the more opaque it becomes to itself (as a defense against the outside gaze), the less able it will be to 'think' as a system, to communicate with itself." Mr. Assange's idea is that with enough leaks, "the security state will then try to shrink its computational network in response, thereby making itself dumber and slower and smaller."

Edited December 6, 2010 by starion_cult

[Metric-man]

http://madmimi.com/system/promotion_images/0075/3110/fraudalert.gif

 

Mr. Assange doesn't mail bombs, but his actions have life-threatening consequences. Consider the case of a 75-year-old dentist in Los Angeles, Hossein Vahedi. According to one of the confidential cables released by WikiLeaks, Dr. Vahedi, a U.S. citizen, returned to Iran in 2008 to visit his parents' graves. Authorities confiscated his passport because his sons worked as concert promoters for Persian pop singers in the U.S. who had criticized the theocracy.

 

The cable reported that Dr. Vahedi decided to escape by horseback over the mountains of western Iran and into Turkey. He trained by hiking the hills above Tehran. He took extra heart medication. But when he fell off his horse, he was injured and nearly froze. When he made it to Turkey, the U.S. Embassy intervened to stop him being sent back to Iran.

 

"This is very bad for my family," Dr. Vahedi told the New York Daily News on being told about the leak of the cable naming him and describing his exploits. Tehran has a new excuse to target his relatives in Iran. "How could this be printed?"

 

Excellent question. It's hard being collateral damage in the world of WikiLeaks.

Edited December 6, 2010 by starion_cult

[Side-Swipe]

Oh I get it, your Muslim.

 

And this is your means of waging war.

 

To upset the citizens of the US, and divide us with controversial selective news propaganda.

 

Well you might think we want your oil but that's the only means, your going to have to use to recover from your poverty.

 

The US just liberated your country,

from likes of Saddam any anyone associated with him,

you know the guy who made public killings in the local sports arena popular ?

 

So I can understand why you maybe upset, because your opium addiction is suffering,

because the local supply lines have been cut off because the US has now moved north into Afghanistan.

 

Iran takes all the rest of the trade for their citizens, and the Northern territories diverted their shipments to eastern Europe.

 

It's got to be hard being a militant right now , so I understand why your so upset.

 

We'll find you it's just a matter of time, sit tight and we'll save your soul for Ala too.

 

Maybe you can have some Girl Scout cookies,... you like Bruce Willis you know the guy from Die Hard 1 2 3 and 4 ??

 

He's got lots... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_willis#Military_pursuits

 

Willis has publicly sold Girl Scout cookies for the United States armed forces. In 2002, Willis's youngest daughter, Tallulah, suggested that he purchase Girl Scout cookies to send to troops. Willis purchased 12,000 boxes of cookies, and they were distributed to sailors aboard USS John F. Kennedy and other troops stationed throughout the Middle East at the time

 

 

 

 

MMMM Girl Scout cookies are goood!!! http://www.lightningunitedsoccer.org/American-flag-waving.gif

 

you'll find they are way better than any drug, in fact they have a taste a Freedom about them.

 

You are not very good at argueing your point. Who I am and where I am from should not make a difference. The idea is still the same but for you it is easier to attack character and destoy credibility rather than the arguement itself. A good arguer must be able to hold to opposite ideas in there mind not one. If you do not make the government fear you as people it will make you fear it as the government. You must always investigate what they do, they dont do it in your best interest but in their own. If they make mistakes they will cover it up.

 

The government is not America, the people and land are America. The government changes and always thinks about itself and how long it can rule and have power. You cannot believe forever that there is this gleaming picturesque land that is America and "liberals" or "Muslims" are trying to destroy or tarnish it. No the people that rule this country do questionable things because they do not want their power opposed.

 

I love my country, I hate the government that runs it.

[Fanta]

http://madmimi.com/system/promotion_images/0075/3110/fraudalert.gif

 

Mr. Assange doesn't mail bombs, but his actions have life-threatening consequences. Consider the case of a 75-year-old dentist in Los Angeles, Hossein Vahedi. According to one of the confidential cables released by WikiLeaks, Dr. Vahedi, a U.S. citizen, returned to Iran in 2008 to visit his parents' graves. Authorities confiscated his passport because his sons worked as concert promoters for Persian pop singers in the U.S. who had criticized the theocracy.

 

The cable reported that Dr. Vahedi decided to escape by horseback over the mountains of western Iran and into Turkey. He trained by hiking the hills above Tehran. He took extra heart medication. But when he fell off his horse, he was injured and nearly froze. When he made it to Turkey, the U.S. Embassy intervened to stop him being sent back to Iran.

 

"This is very bad for my family," Dr. Vahedi told the New York Daily News on being told about the leak of the cable naming him and describing his exploits. Tehran has a new excuse to target his relatives in Iran. "How could this be printed?"

 

Excellent question. It's hard being collateral damage in the world of WikiLeaks.

 

 

To be fair though, before the first round of cable leaks were released, they did approach various governments.

 

Hell, I was reading them and found out China is researching quantum teleportation, in addition to a biometrics identification machine that identifies who you are just by walking onto a tile by how you walk...

[Metric-man]

You are not very good at argueing your point. Who I am and where I am from should not make a difference. The idea is still the same but for you it is easier to attack character and destoy credibility rather than the arguement itself. A good arguer must be able to hold to opposite ideas in there mind not one. If you do not make the government fear you as people it will make you fear it as the government. You must always investigate what they do, they dont do it in your best interest but in their own. If they make mistakes they will cover it up.

 

The government is not America, the people and land are America. The government changes and always thinks about itself and how long it can rule and have power. You cannot believe forever that there is this gleaming picturesque land that is America and "liberals" or "Muslims" are trying to destroy or tarnish it. No the people that rule this country do questionable things because they do not want their power opposed.

 

I love my country, I hate the government that runs it.

Even faced with the truths that have been revealed in the past 24 hours you still hold on to your notions that the government is out to

harm you and take away your freedoms, you have no concept of the American government or it's people ,

if you did you would no be relaying this media garbage that isn't even your own idea.

It is treason to even engage in conversation with you about these subjects.

You need to wake up and decide for yourself if you can, what is true, not some media hogwash some self proclaimed anarchist posted on the internet,

wake up an see what you are doing what you a saying what you are promoting, what kind of actions you take have a direct effect on the environment around you,

your environment your decisions show me something original that came from you.

Get out of your altered state of consciousness, sober up , then tell me what reality is.

 

Basically what you are doing, is receiving and distributing (stolen) illegal electronic property,

just the same as if it were child pornography.

Just because it is on the web doesn't make it legal to own posses, distribute, or view.

 

test

Edited December 22, 2010 by SQF

[SQF]

TEST

[SQF]

test