E-85 trials...

[blue_crush]

Well I had my car running great on pump gas but just couldn't get a WOT pass unless I had race gas in the tank, not sure why. So this time around I tried to use 2 secondary injectors and that didn't work out very well and then I used the trilogy injectors (650/950) and same results, then I just went back to stock and called it quits. I was hoping for the higher octane of E-85 to help me out with my problem... but that's not the case.

I'm using limited tuning tools (translator & wideband) and with the crap 2 injector set up, I couldn't get it right. I got the car to idle, run off boost great, but any boost and it went lean as hell, even with the 2 secondarys. I know you need roughly 30% more fuel with E-85 and I think I have enough, just can't tune it all in with just the translator.

My DSM buddys run it and get great results, so I said what the hell, why not.

[Scotty Dont]

It's probably not the Translators fault, you are having issue somewhere else. I don't know your build specs but it seems like you have had a few sqs so start with the basics and maybe return the car to stock then add your aftermarket parts and more boost if you have no issues.

[blue_crush]

I put a walbro 255 pump in about 3 years ago, and I'm starting to wonder if it just isn't doing the trick any more, or if I should eliminate that crap stock filter and run a nice inline filter. Seems like if I go higher than 10# of boost it cuts. Rarely can I run WOT at 15#. The only time I ever could I had 110 octane gas in it. If I turn it down to 10# it runs fine, so that's why I'm confused, it acts like its running out of gas, but the wideband says I have plenty (yeh, that's right my wideband talks to me! lol) or I'm wondering if that holset is pushin so much air that those 2 injectors can't take it. I know you have a holset, but I know you have MPI too.

 

Specs:

 

Walbro 255 fuel pump (hard wired)

injectors listed above

trilogy reg

NGK BPR7ES plugs

Taylor wires

Full MSD ignition

Holset HY35 turbo

2.25" hard pipes

Precision Turbo intercooler

Translator

[Scotty Dont]

Try dropping the gap down on your plugs and slowly turning the boost up, sounds like spark blow out to me. That holeset is going to flow like a 16g until you get passed 20psi where the hy35 will surpass the 16g and start flowing big cfm.

[Indiana]

 

Seems like if I go higher than 10# of boost it cuts. Rarely can I run WOT at 15#. The only time I ever could I had 110 octane gas in it. If I turn it down to 10# it runs fine, so that's why I'm confused, it acts like its running out of gas, but the wideband says I have plenty.

 

Specs:

NGK BPR7ES plugs

 

The symptom and the cause of it right there. Those plugs when rich like that foul out and misfire, the car won't continue on and when it bucks and jerks and the boost jumps up and down so does the fuel pressure and that compounds the problem. The fluctuating boost pressure is also playing with ignition timing via your vacuum advance.

 

 

You need these plugs. Now this is not a colder plug at all its the same plug you have now with one difference on the end but that QUACK PROFESSOR says in one of his posts about me telling about this plug on that other board he isn't banned from he thinks the entire plug is that thick at the base and that its a very cold plug and thinks he knows what he is talking about, that is just a lip rolled over at the end to prevent it from fouling out by closing the gap around the end so the fuel doesn't collect there and cause the plug to misfire.

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs123.snc1/5289_1027208978663_1778479606_56212_606787_n.jpg

Edited November 9, 2010 by Indiana

[StarquestRescue]

I have a set up that works pretty good. You can read about it here http://sqperformance.forumcity.com/viewtopic.php?t=108&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 And see the results here. http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=111739

 

I think you are hitting a load based fuel cut. You are trying to run a 400hp turbo on a 250hp fuel system. 2 secondaries are only 27% more fuel. But e85 need about that much more so you are back to where you started.

 

Forget 2 same sized injectors. These cars will never run right with them. You need a near stock size stagger. I run 850/1400 from lsp and that is barely enough for 300 hp. E85 would need 1050/1800 to make the same power.

 

I would sell the maft and go with a 2g mas and re flashed neo with at least the 850/1400 or maybe 950/1600 injectors for gas. I could not get a maft to work worth a damm either.

[blue_crush]

Thanks for the feedback. As for now I think I will try the plugs. and yeh, the turbo is a bit much, but I needed one and it was cheap enough for me to try something different. I already did the 16g turbo and had great results, but I pushed its limits too much, so I wanted something I could work into.

I wish I had the funds to go stand alone, and multiport, but due to a divorce....yeh not happening. I might even have to sell my car. Unless I find a set up like StarquestRescue was talkin about. Then I might sell alot of other crap.

Speaking of, what's with the reflashed neo, why won't it work normal. I don't know to much about the neo, so I ask

[Funky Phil]

your wideband should show a lean condition if your fuel cutting.

If you say it runs fine with race gas, have you looked at the possibility of too much ignition advance?

[Indiana]

The NEO may not work with Karman style MAF sensor which is our cars MAF and the DSMs, they had defective software and you send them back in to Apexi and they reflash the software and send it back with some free stuff like a shirt or keychain and stickers. You pay the postage to ship it though and it takes a short time like a week. They have said they used to put a sticker on them that they were reflashed but we sent in two and neither came back with a sticker on them. They have a number on the back you can call Apexi and ask them if that particular unit was reflashed. Even if its brand new in the box and its serial number on the back falls below the range of bad software models it still must be sent back to be reflashed. Now maybe you'll find one for sale that someone doesn't know this and they think its fried or just can't make it work and you can get a deal.

[Technology]

Not to be rude to anyone, but I would wager I've got the most experience using corn gas, so by that yardstick, you should listen to me, haha! I'd pull all that msd junk off the car, and at most get a new stock style coil. Then gap the plugs you have now to around .025, like me. Then get a 1250 primary and a 1600 secondary and use the maft. You can always lean it out, but with small injectors you can never add enough. Plus with huge injectors, the ecu won't run out of headroom on duty cycles. Oh yeah, use stock replacement plug wires, they weren't a problem at 447rwhp. I will try for the magic 500 with them, then of course 600. My guess is they'll be fine, the coil pack will let me down first.

[StarquestRescue]

To tune these cars with a piggy back a person should first under stand how the 87-89 fuel system works.

 

At light throttle near steady rpm the duty cycle of the primary goes from about 52% to 22% when the secondary kicks in. Ideally when we choose injectors we would want to know the flow rates at those duty cycles for the stock injectors and the after market ones to pick after market ones that give the smoother transition.

 

Running two secondaries mathematically that works out to a 20% change in fuel flow at the transition point. Goes leaner when the secondary kicks in and richer when it shuts off. To some extent you can drive around the problem area if you drive the car like you stole it or back off or accelerate through transition area.

 

The worst case scenario it driving up hill where the car wants to run is a load range where it is barely running on both injectors.

 

Stock injectors. I use 580 cc and 1000 cc for comparison.

 

580 + 73% =1003

850 + 67% = 1420 (my 1400 tested at 1420)

 

650 + 46% = 949 There is likely an imbalance here, but that is what you are stuck with if you have nothing to tune with.

 

A good picture of the change in duty cycle when the ecu switches from the primary to both injectors. (Stock size Mitsu injectors in these pictures)

 

The afr goes out of whack around the transition point if the size ratio is less than stock.With 2 secondaries the afr would jump up 1.5 to 2 after the transition to both injectors. I had my afc throttle points at 20% and 32%. The High throttle being my both injector tune and the low being my primary only tune. It worked to a point, but i still had to drive around the problem area.

 

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/Secondaryonsetatlightthrottle.jpg

 

Looking at the logs the secondary kicks in about 390 hz of air flow. The exception being if it is on in response to tps movement.

 

The secondary looks to shut down about 290 hz of air flow.

 

My 850/1400 injectors. The size ratio is still off a tad, but they are working much better at the transition point from the primary to both injectors than the two secondaries were.

 

I purchased the injectors from Lower shores performance. Unmodified they are different lengths, he machined them so they could be used together.

 

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/DSC01860.jpg

 

This pic shows how injectors with a non stock size ratio afect the afr at the transition point. In this case i was running two secondaries.

 

Secondary kicked in and than i backed off a little, but car stayed on both injectors. I was probably going up hill. 20% tps was my primary injector tune and 32% my both injector tune. You can see the afr rise in spite of my tuning efforts as i backed of and than go back to normal when the ecu switched back to the primary injector.

 

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/2Secondarys.jpg

[StarquestRescue]

your wideband should show a lean condition if your fuel cutting.

If you say it runs fine with race gas, have you looked at the possibility of too much ignition advance?

He would likely not see it or be unsure what came first. The lean condition or the compleat loss of power for a slit second. And not know why the "fuel cut symptom" event happened

 

I ran into what looks to be a dsm style fuel cut running E85. I was adding about 25% fuel at wot and 30% at cruise on top of my gas settings. The air flow was above 2000hz for about .5 seconds prior to the both injectors shutting off. I have another log that looks pretty much the same.

 

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/StarquestRescue/Data%20logs/E85fuelcut.jpg

[blue_crush]

Not to be rude to anyone, but I would wager I've got the most experience using corn gas, so by that yardstick, you should listen to me, haha! I'd pull all that msd junk off the car, and at most get a new stock style coil. Then gap the plugs you have now to around .025, like me. Then get a 1250 primary and a 1600 secondary and use the maft. You can always lean it out, but with small injectors you can never add enough. Plus with huge injectors, the ecu won't run out of headroom on duty cycles. Oh yeah, use stock replacement plug wires, they weren't a problem at 447rwhp. I will try for the magic 500 with them, then of course 600. My guess is they'll be fine, the coil pack will let me down first.

 

So where could I get a set of 1250/1600 injectors and how much would that cost? Why ditch the MSD set up? Some say it's not needed, but you would think it's better than or as good as stock...

[BlackBII]

So where could I get a set of 1250/1600 injectors and how much would that cost? Why ditch the MSD set up? Some say it's not needed, but you would think it's better than or as good as stock...

 

Brian A. with Lower Shores can hook you up.

 

lower.shores.performance@gmail.com

 

As far as getting it to run on E-85, I have been working on that for some time now. 650CC and 950CC injectors, 3" GM and MAFT. I will be getting some larger injectors eventually, but I'm not looking for a power monster at the moment.

 

After a hell of a time trying to get it tuned right with the MAFT, I tried setting to 3.5" MAF mode, rather than 3" MAF mode. That was the trick.

 

I'm running 10PSI of boost with a T3/T4 Ebay turbo. AFR's are at 12 idle, 13 cruise and 10 under full boost. I've turned it up to 15psi without any signs of it leaning out. I can get a pic of my MAFT knob settings, but if I remmeber right they were all set to pretty rich, 6's and 7's across the board (Idle, Mid, and WOT. AUX and Base at 0)

 

I should also mention that I am hitting what feels like a fuel cut at about 15psi, but I have yet to address that. It's a DD, no need yet...

 

Edited November 12, 2010 by BlackBII

[DrvNsily]

Is the stock regulator on the 2.6 boost referenced?

With a 255pump, you can also increase the fuel psi to help get more fuel delivered.

 

When at WOT the duty cycle I would belived be a fixed time on the injector pulse according to temp and air quanity.

 

Not sure how much correction the fuel system can correct with the O2 at idle and cruse, but at WOT you generally need 30% more fuel.

 

Either bigger injectors or more fuel psi would be the best way to get there.

 

I have played with Neons for quite a while and have mine running nicely on a stock ecu and REALLY big injectors.

I know there is a big difference between these cars, but am getting more involved with the starquest world because I hate FWD.

 

Planing a 2.4 4G64 high compression turbo build. Probably run a megasquirt though.

 

 

E85 also like timing alot, just an FYI.

Edited November 13, 2010 by DrvNsily

[Technology]

Actually, e85 doesn't allow you to run wild with timing like real leaded race gas, but you can run stupid boost to make your numbers. I say ditch the msd because I've heard its no more reliable than any other aftermarket system and I'm not using anything special. Just stock DSM stuff with stock plug wires and bpr8es plugs at .025. It's not going to do anything more than look pretty as long as you are in the low to mid 200s for HP. And it adds another possible problem area when trying to convert to alcohol. You just need bigger injectors to start. And O-rings if you go above 22-25 psi depending on the turbo, lol.