Swapping turbo parts

[dmyers151]

Can I swap the wheels/shaft and compressor housing from a TD05-16g with a bad center cartridge over to a known good 12a center cartridge? Logic tells me yes, but I'm no expert and don't wanna take these things apart and find out something is different.

 

If so, what's the torque spec on the compressor wheel retaining nut? I don't recall it being in the FSM.

[DieHARDmitsu.]

Usually, when you mix match turbo wheels or turbine shafts, balancing is required.

[Coke]

Balancing is not required...but it is suggested. Many people on here are running non-balanced turbos, myself included. It functions just the same. The only downside is it may fail prematurely, by a few thousand miles. I seriously wouldn't be too concerned about it.

[Psykore]

Did your fixed turbo end up being not fixed or are you just planning ahead?

 

I think the compressor wheel on the 12a is smaller than the 16g, so the 16g wheel won't fit in the recess of the 12a cartridge. I ended up buying a new eBay 20g cartridge for my turbo; was like 90 bucks shipped or so.

[DieHARDmitsu.]

Well, if you don't mind changing or rebuilding it every couple of months, go for it. If you plan on spooling it past stock boost, may be sooner.

[87B71Brad]

Did your fixed turbo end up being not fixed or are you just planning ahead?

 

I think the compressor wheel on the 12a is smaller than the 16g, so the 16g wheel won't fit in the recess of the 12a cartridge. I ended up buying a new eBay 20g cartridge for my turbo; was like 90 bucks shipped or so.

 

he meant can you take the 12a center and run the 16g shaft/wheel and housings I believe.

 

I'm running a 12a center with a td05h and 16g. Its not balanced either...but I live in BFE so I didn't wanna drive an hour to get it balanced. Though my current setup is just to get me to work and back it boostes 15lbs everyday for two or three months now. I would definatly get it balanced if I was wanting long term reliablity and gonna see high boost #'s

 

oh I cant find any torque specs for the nut...I used a 10.2v makita impact with loctite on nut

Edited September 25, 2010 by 87B71Brad

[Indiana]

You sure that 16G shaft isn't a tdo5H shaft? Those won't swap the turbine wheels are different sizes and you port them out yourself it screws it up you'll never get it the correct contour and that's how the boost is made.

 

The cartridges are the same btw. If the two compressor wheels are both flat back then the parts will swap.

 

You trying to save from buying a kit or what happened? Even if you have a dead locked up 12a that was smoking if you just tear it down and clean out all the old burnt oil that is built up around the rear seal then reassemble it, it will work again. Polish off any of the scoring you can on the turbine shaft and use the better of the 4 bearings you have from the two torn down cartridges as well as the better of the two thrust plates.

 

 

 

 

[dmyers151]

Did your fixed turbo end up being not fixed or are you just planning ahead?

 

I think the compressor wheel on the 12a is smaller than the 16g, so the 16g wheel won't fit in the recess of the 12a cartridge. I ended up buying a new eBay 20g cartridge for my turbo; was like 90 bucks shipped or so.

I was planning ahead, but it now turns out I was correct in my assumption of the turbo being no good.

 

The comp. wheels are different, that's why I was going to swap the comp. housing over also.

 

He meant can you take the 12a center and run the 16g shaft/wheel and housings I believe.

Exactly what I meant, thanks.

 

You sure that 16G shaft isn't a tdo5H shaft? Those won't swap the turbine wheels are different sizes and you port them out yourself it screws it up you'll never get it the correct contour and that's how the boost is made.

 

The cartridges are the same btw. If the two compressor wheels are both flat back then the parts will swap.

 

You trying to save from buying a kit or what happened? Even if you have a dead locked up 12a that was smoking if you just tear it down and clean out all the old burnt oil that is built up around the rear seal then reassemble it, it will work again. Polish off any of the scoring you can on the turbine shaft and use the better of the 4 bearings you have from the two torn down cartridges as well as the better of the two thrust plates.

I'm 95% sure it's a TD05 turbine/shaft. The exhaust outlet on the housing that came with the 16g is the same as the outlet on my 12a.

 

I bought a "rebuilt" turbo from a guy on here and it turned out bad. So I sent it back where it stayed for way too long. I finally got it back the other day and it's no good again, smokes and leaks oil from the v-band flange. I just want a good running, non-smoking, non-leaking turbo. I know my 12a center is good, since I've been running it with no issues this whole time (before, after crap 16g's). So I figure that if the turbine wheels are the same, the rest should just swap over with minimal effort.

 

I'm assuming that a small 16g wheel is a flat back. So I could go through with what I was considering, but honestly, I'm getting tired of tinkering with these things. I'd rather do it once and be all set for at least a whole driving season. At this point, I'll have done 4 turbo swaps since April, and although it's not difficult, I just tire of it.

 

-------------------------------

 

After all this, I've been rethinking my whole deal.

 

Running the small 16g for the day I've had it, it doesn't feel very much stronger than my 12a, and I was hoping for a decent improvement. I suppose some of this could be attributed to it being kinda broken, but I'm not sure. I've got nothing to really compare it to except the "seat of your pants" dyno, and it says this turbo is weak.

 

An EVO-III 16g CHRA is only $425 and is a really good turbo from what I understand. I'm considering getting rid of the small 16g, most likely taking a loss on it, and using that money plus some of my own, and picking up a "new" EVO-III 16g CHRA. Then having my housings bored out locally to fit the new wheels.

 

Does anyone know what the bore sizes/tolerances are for the EVO-III wheels? I know the turbine is a TD05H or TD06?

Edited September 27, 2010 by dmyers151

[dmyers151]

Here's a few pics for those interested. You can see the oil on the v-band and wastegate arm as well as spattered on the heat shield:

http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr71/dmyers151/September_2010/HPIM1320.jpg

http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr71/dmyers151/September_2010/HPIM1321.jpg

http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr71/dmyers151/September_2010/HPIM1322.jpg

http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr71/dmyers151/September_2010/HPIM1323.jpg

 

The resulting fog machine:

http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr71/dmyers151/September_2010/HPIM1324.jpg

[Psykore]

Bummer on the bad x2 thing dude. That's the main reason I didn't send mine back; after 7 months of waiting and all the effort making it work I wanted to go with a sure thing.

 

I think you should try swapping out your 12a cartridge, it sounds like from the other feedback the parts should all fit. I totally understand the frustration of doing it multiple times, I think I had mine apart 2 dozen times trying different oil seals and such before I finally gave up and bought the new cartridge.

 

I would advise against using the EVOIII style exhaust housing if you do decide to go with something else. That thing is a huge pain in the nuts to work with on our exhaust manifold, and I believe if you are going to modify the down pipe you may as well upgrade your manifold.

 

I'm also not sure what happens to the strength/ longevity of the stock housing when you bore it out to accept the 05h sized wheel, maybe someone that has done one will chime in.

 

Good Luck

[StarquestRescue]

http://www.fc3spro.com/TECH/TURBO/tmodels.html

 

This chart does not list the 12a compressor diameters. But notice that the compressor exducer (major) diameters are almost all different. The recess in the center section needs to be machined for the exducer diameter of the compressor wheel it is paired with.

Edited September 27, 2010 by StarquestRescue

[Psykore]

Cool chart.

 

That is what I was trying to say in my first post, I guess I didn't type it as well as I had thought.

 

I have a 12a that is ripped apart that I can measure for you if you don't want to take your working turbo apart. It's at my buddies house so the soonest I could do that would be tomorrow evening; lemme know.

[Indiana]

A little 16g isn't happy until its about 15-20psi.

 

Just because the opening for the downpipe looks to be the same size doesn't have anything to do with the turbine wheel it may have a step in it or not. Few turbos are using the TD05 turbine wheel buts its part of the shaft it doesn't come off and the difference is very little but a TD05 turbine housing is too small to even stick the TD05H wheel in to.

 

 

 

 

[Indiana]

Remove the V band clamp and separate the cartridge from the turbine housing and if you oil and water lines can move a few inches then leave them connected. Take the nut off the compressor wheel and slip the turbine shaft out. See if it fits in your Starion turbine housing I bet it won't.

 

No looking at the rear oil seal, its going to have burnt oil surrounding it so it can't seal any longer so its smoking. You can clean all that off. You have a bench grinder? Get a wire wheel for it that will do it.

[dmyers151]

http://www.fc3spro.com/TECH/TURBO/tmodels.html

 

This chart does not list the 12a compressor diameters. But notice that the compressor exducer (major) diameters are almost all different. The recess in the center section needs to be machined for the exducer diameter of the compressor wheel it is paired with.

That is a good chart, I think I've seen it before, I probably actually have it printed out and laying somewhere on/near my workbench.

 

Thanks John.

 

A little 16g isn't happy until its about 15-20psi.

 

Just because the opening for the downpipe looks to be the same size doesn't have anything to do with the turbine wheel it may have a step in it or not. Few turbos are using the TD05 turbine wheel buts its part of the shaft it doesn't come off and the difference is very little but a TD05 turbine housing is too small to even stick the TD05H wheel in to.

I was/am running it at ~17psi, there is a noticeable difference in power, just not as much as I was hoping. It still dies off early in a very similar fashion to the 12a. Maybe I'm expecting too much from the little guy?

 

This is a turbo from "ragdoll_unlimited", upgraded from a 12a to a small 16g. I'm almost positive he reuses the stock TD05 shaft/turbine to keep costs down.

 

Remove the V band clamp and separate the cartridge from the turbine housing and if your oil and water lines can move a few inches then leave them connected. Take the nut off the compressor wheel and slip the turbine shaft out. See if it fits in your Starion turbine housing I bet it won't.

 

Now looking at the rear oil seal, its going to have burnt oil surrounding it so it can't seal any longer so its smoking. You can clean all that off. You have a bench grinder? Get a wire wheel for it that will do it.

The turbine fits into the stock housing and spins freely. The turbo spools up fine, just smokes and sprays oil from the v-band flange.

 

Okay, so pull it all apart, clean the gunk off, and go. Got it.

 

---------------------------

 

Thanks for all the info guys.

[Indiana]

Did you prime the cartridge before the motor was started? I may have just burnt the rear seal if you didn't. If the oil feed was dry or empty and you just started the car that may have caused this. It won't really have much if any shaft play but the rear seal is also cooled by that oil and its just a tiny ring but you can replace those for about 10.00 If it is burnt and you'll have to take the shaft out to see then it will be blueish in color. If it was assembled in a HURRY and the seal was damaged or if it were twisted when installed not spread just like a piston ring it might leak it will be hard to tell that as this point since its been ran already. If you didn't crank the motor over allot and see oil run out the drain hose before you started it or you didn't fill the cartridge with oil and have the oil feed line full already it takes very little to burn that seal out. If your cartridge wasn't completely cleaned of the metal shavings from any machining that could cause this. If there were a big gouge in the cartridge in the back where the seal seats too it can leak too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dmyers151]

Did you prime the cartridge before the motor was started? It may have just burnt the rear seal if you didn't. If the oil feed was dry or empty and you just started the car that may have caused this. It won't really have much if any shaft play but the rear seal is also cooled by that oil and its just a tiny ring but you can replace those for about 10.00 If it is burnt and you'll have to take the shaft out to see then it will be blueish in color. If it was assembled in a HURRY and the seal was damaged or if it were twisted when installed not spread just like a piston ring it might leak it will be hard to tell that as this point since its been ran already. If you didn't crank the motor over allot and see oil run out the drain hose before you started it or you didn't fill the cartridge with oil and have the oil feed line full already it takes very little to burn that seal out. If your cartridge wasn't completely cleaned of the metal shavings from any machining that could cause this. If there were a big gouge in the cartridge in the back where the seal seats too it can leak too.

Yes, I did prime the cartridge. I filled it with oil and let it sit overnight, this was not my intention but I had something come up and had to leave it. Then when I installed it, I let the oil drain out, filled the cartridge with new using a small syringe, and put the oil feed line on. Then I cranked the car with the injectors and coil disconnected until I got oil out of the return line.

 

It didn't smoke at all at first, not for at least 15 miles. Even then it was only during engine braking, and not all the time. After that it was during engine braking and in boost. Now it smokes intermittently during engine braking, in boost, and while sitting at idle.

 

I think I'm going to pull it apart and try putting the 16g internals and compressor housing onto my 12a cartridge.

 

Then I'll go through and inspect the 16g cartridge for wear and failure.

Edited September 28, 2010 by dmyers151

[StarquestRescue]

It will be interesting to see what the insides looks like.

[dmyers151]

I'll try and document it to the best of my abilities. The lighting in our shop is terrible for taking pictures but I'll do what I can.

[Indiana]

See if your intake tract has oil in it. If your separator puked from too much crankcase pressure upon the new turbo and higher boost or maybe your PCV valve stuck and this is just an oily mess and the turbo is fine. Too much fuel and it will mix with soot and oil and drip from the exhaust at any seam.

 

Does it make any weird noise when it boosts or just smoke? When you said engine braking that's when the PCV sucks in allot of crankcase gasses but not oil that would have came from the boost condition just before. The throttle plate will be oily, maybe a BOV but the straight sections of your intercooler plumbing will still be dry. Intercooler might have some in the bottom. It won't take much oil to cause smoke.

 

Some oil from priming it might have seeped past the rear seal but it shouldn't have puddled and dripped out. Try letting it idle for 30min or so and see if it stops smoking.

[dmyers151]

See if your intake tract has oil in it. If your separator puked from too much crankcase pressure upon the new turbo and higher boost or maybe your PCV valve stuck and this is just an oily mess and the turbo is fine. Too much fuel and it will mix with soot and oil and drip from the exhaust at any seam.

 

Does it make any weird noise when it boosts or just smoke? When you said engine braking that's when the PCV sucks in allot of crankcase gasses but not oil that would have came from the boost condition just before. The throttle plate will be oily, maybe a BOV but the straight sections of your intercooler plumbing will still be dry. Intercooler might have some in the bottom. It won't take much oil to cause smoke.

 

Some oil from priming it might have seeped past the rear seal but it shouldn't have puddled and dripped out. Try letting it idle for 30min or so and see if it stops smoking.

I'll check the intake tract, its been very clean in the past, even after the last time the 16g went south. I've been able to rub my finger on the inside of the turbo outlet and get barely a smudge.

 

It does make a funny noise during boost. Beyond the normal vacuum sounds, it makes a high pitched squeal, that is new and come about upon installing the 16g. It doesn't smoke all the time, which I find odd. Only sometimes and I've yet to find a common instance between these times, other than the fact that I am in boost.

 

I'll check the PCV also, it's only about 2 years old, but I know even brand new parts can go bad, it is an OEM unit I purchased from Engine Machine Service. It not only smokes when engine braking after a boosted pull, but during most instances of engine braking, and just general street driving.

 

I'll check the throttle plate and see what that looks like too.

 

It's not really dripping out, its more being sprayed out. You can see it splattered all over the heat shield. After every drive, regardless to how long or short, it will be smoking from the turbo area and smell of burning oil.

[brianpaul98]

 

It does make a funny noise during boost. Beyond the normal vacuum sounds, it makes a high pitched squeal, that is new and come about upon installing the 16g. It doesn't smoke all the time, which I find odd. Only sometimes and I've yet to find a common instance between these times, other than the fact that I am in boost.

 

 

There is a difference between a high pitched whistle and a high pitched squeal. My 20G makes a high pitched whistle when it get up on full boost at about 20 ~ 22 psi. A high pitched squeal sounds like metal to metal galling together.

[dmyers151]

Very true.

 

I wanna say it's a mechanical squeal, not a rushing air squeal.

[brianpaul98]

Very true.

 

I wanna say it's a mechanical squeal, not a rushing air squeal.

 

 

Did you notice any signs of abnormal wear when you got it apart? a mechanical squeal is not something you want to be hearing from your turbo.

[dmyers151]

I haven't had it apart yet. I'm gonna try and pull it off the car tomorrow night and do a quick visual on the outside before I tear into the cartridge.