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#1 Skullzaflare

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 08:06 PM

tonight for example,  65 degrees out.
i left work, and on interstate temps stay at 175, raises to 180-185 boosting
on normal road, temps stay around 180-190
if i stop and idle temps start slowly climbing, 205 is highest i let it go

newer engine, 88 with 88k miles, jetvalve
87 car
88 ecu, 1g mas
sr20 aluminum radiator with 16" electric fan
new bpr6es-11 spark plugs (dont even start with the bur7ea-11 thing)
good black/green top injectors

throttlebody is leaking gas onthe sides

any ideas?
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#2 Goddard

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 08:56 PM

bad or stuck thermostat?
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#3 importwarrior

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 09:17 PM

#1 get the Tbody rebuilt. it is easy to do and worth the $28
it cost for a gasket set. better than your car burning to the
ground.

does the car run or operate fine besides runing hot?
when floored or heavy accelleration? or does it buck
when stepping in to the gas?

i had the same problem running hot all the time.
It could be many things. does it eat rad fluid?
how often do you have to fill or top it off?

have you checked your rad fans? do they turn on
when you ground the lower thermal rad sensor switch
wire? how old is the water pump?

could be a bad head gasket. cracked head, bad T-Body gasket.
clogged radiator if it is stock and never been rodded out.
clogged fuel pump filter might make it run lean.
when you take off the radiator cap and start te car does it
bubble out the top once it reaches operating temp?

did this just start happenning?

Edited by importwarrior, 24 October 2010 - 09:21 PM.

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#4 Skullzaflare

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 09:42 PM

View Postimportwarrior, on 24 October 2010 - 09:17 PM, said:

#1 get the Tbody rebuilt. it is easy to do and worth the $28
it cost for a gasket set. better than your car burning to the
ground.

does the car run or operate fine besides runing hot?
when floored or heavy accelleration? or does it buck
when stepping in to the gas?

i had the same problem running hot all the time.
It could be many things. does it eat rad fluid?
how often do you have to fill or top it off?

have you checked your rad fans? do they turn on
when you ground the lower thermal rad sensor switch
wire? how old is the water pump?

could be a bad head gasket. cracked head, bad T-Body gasket.
clogged radiator if it is stock and never been rodded out.
clogged fuel pump filter might make it run lean.
when you take off the radiator cap and start te car does it
bubble out the top once it reaches operating temp?

did this just start happenning?
i already ordered the kit to rebuild the Tb
yea runs fine, unless under heavy load, heavy load it tends to fall on its face til you let ogg to 1/2 throttle
doesnt use any coolent at all
has 1 month old sr20 aluminum radiator with 16" electric fan

engine/waterpump has 88k miles on it

doesnt blow any coolent or bubble
wideband doesnt say its lean, cruising is 16-17afr, boost is 12.3afr, idle is 14-16afr
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#5 Indiana

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 10:14 PM

Those plugs are for the non intercooled lower boost motor why are you using them?  They are too hot if you car won't run it has other problems.

If that fan has no shroud its useless and the part that isn't enclosed by the shroud isn't cooling at all unless you are moving.  

Those plugs are not removing enough heat, this is one reason the coolant gets hotter but 205 is nothing, don't worry about it.  It it hit like 280-300 then drive easy.  230ish who cares the engine is normally at 212 and they said this is the "normal" operating temperature of the engine oil and that would be under no load normal driving not boosting or hard driving either that would mean the temperatures would be higher.  You think the coolant is to be cooler than oil?  So the coolant would also try to cool the oil when I thought that was what they put the oil cooler on for?  lol  Too many freak out and say their car is too hot makes me laugh every time.  

Next thing is ignition, there is no way to tell if ignition is causing this unless maybe you get 4 EGT probes and watch them spike under boost because air fuel ratio tells you nothing about EGTs at all.  EGTs come back to using the wrong heat range plug and that's what you are using and I still can't see why.  

You want to know what the specs were for coolant temps and where the gauges lay at what ohm readings and what they define the position of the gauges needle to be here they all are on one page:  http://www.b2600turb.../SQ Cooling.htm


"yea runs fine, unless under heavy load, heavy load it tends to fall on its face "

I bet it does, its about to melt something and those plugs are misfiring so badly this is what is happening.  Its not a mystery to me and you took the plugs out you were supposed to use why?  You still thought it was "too hot"  BS it was not it was just NORMAL.  Stop paying attention to people that "claim" this motor is to run COLD and that if it gets even a bit warm it just warps all to hell.  It doesn't.  

"205 is highest i let it go"

This is being crazy why would you do that and who told you this?  Damn the secondary cooling fan won't even work at that low a temperature.  


You don't like the OEM spark plugs?  Funny, many including mpi people finally switched to using them as all should be.

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#6 Skullzaflare

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 10:26 PM

View PostIndiana, on 24 October 2010 - 10:14 PM, said:

Those plugs are for the non intercooled lower boost motor why are you using them?  They are too hot if you car won't run it has other problems.

If that fan has no shroud its useless and the part that isn't enclosed by the shroud isn't cooling at all unless you are moving.  

Those plugs are not removing enough heat, this is one reason the coolant gets hotter but 205 is nothing, don't worry about it.  It it hit like 280-300 then drive easy.  230ish who cares the engine is normally at 212 and they said this is the "normal" operating temperature of the engine oil and that would be under no load normal driving not boosting or hard driving either that would mean the temperatures would be higher.  You think the coolant is to be cooler than oil?  So the coolant would also try to cool the oil when I thought that was what they put the oil cooler on for?  lol  Too many freak out and say their car is too hot makes me laugh every time.  

Next thing is ignition, there is no way to tell if ignition is causing this unless maybe you get 4 EGT probes and watch them spike under boost because air fuel ratio tells you nothing about EGTs at all.  EGTs come back to using the wrong heat range plug and that's what you are using and I still can't see why.  

You want to know what the specs were for coolant temps and where the gauges lay at what ohm readings and what they define the position of the gauges needle to be here they all are on one page:  http://www.b2600turb.../SQ Cooling.htm


"yea runs fine, unless under heavy load, heavy load it tends to fall on its face "

I bet it does, its about to melt something and those plugs are misfiring so badly this is what is happening.  Its not a mystery to me and you took the plugs out you were supposed to use why?  You still thought it was "too hot"  BS it was not it was just NORMAL.  Stop paying attention to people that "claim" this motor is to run COLD and that if it gets even a bit warm it just warps all to hell.  It doesn't.  

"205 is highest i let it go"

This is being crazy why would you do that and who told you this?  Damn the secondary cooling fan won't even work at that low a temperature.  


You don't like the OEM spark plugs?  Funny, many including mpi people finally switched to using them as all should be.

Posted Image
funny, old engine ran cooler though it was on its last leg
the bur7ea-11 run hotter and causes the car to run rough

i did not say it falls on its face, it still pulls just not as hard as half throttle

ignore the fan and radiator, its a custom setup nothing factory controls it

on my temp gauge 190 is 1/2, 205 is 3/4, 215 is tip of red

im a conputer tech, im a cold freak, i dont like anything being warm

the manifold glows between 2+3 as well
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#7 Indiana

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 02:17 AM

View PostSkullzaflare, on 24 October 2010 - 10:26 PM, said:

funny, old engine ran cooler though it was on its last leg
the bur7ea-11 run hotter and causes the car to run rough

i did not say it falls on its face, it still pulls just not as hard as half throttle

ignore the fan and radiator, its a custom setup nothing factory controls it

on my temp gauge 190 is 1/2, 205 is 3/4, 215 is tip of red

im a conputer tech, im a cold freak, i dont like anything being warm

the manifold glows between 2+3 as well
You have timing issues, ignition issues that are causing the glowing manifold.  Its from the wrong plugs and/or too much timing.  Did you set this using a timing light that has a correction adjustment on it?  You may have it set wrong you should double check that.  Perhaps you used the wrong plug wire (not #1) to set it with?

A stock thermostat doesn't even start to open until 192 and its not fully open until 212.

Doesn't matter if the radiator is "custom" if it has no shroud around the fan, it will not work the fan spins in the air and does nothing it will not "pull" air through the core AT ALL.  

I'd not be driving this car until this was all fixed you are on dangerous ground and sounds like near limits that cause pistons to melt.

That temperature gauge is useless for you its range of operation is way too little.   I can't even imagine an engine that doesn't get over 215degrees I don't think there are any.   Where is the sending unit for it?  Is that sending unit matched to the gauge?  Did you use a different gauge with a stock sending unit?

#8 Skullzaflare

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 09:09 AM

View PostIndiana, on 25 October 2010 - 02:17 AM, said:

You have timing issues, ignition issues that are causing the glowing manifold.  Its from the wrong plugs and/or too much timing.  Did you set this using a timing light that has a correction adjustment on it?  You may have it set wrong you should double check that.  Perhaps you used the wrong plug wire (not #1) to set it with?

A stock thermostat doesn't even start to open until 192 and its not fully open until 212.

Doesn't matter if the radiator is "custom" if it has no shroud around the fan, it will not work the fan spins in the air and does nothing it will not "pull" air through the core AT ALL.  

I'd not be driving this car until this was all fixed you are on dangerous ground and sounds like near limits that cause pistons to melt.

That temperature gauge is useless for you its range of operation is way too little.   I can't even imagine an engine that doesn't get over 215degrees I don't think there are any.   Where is the sending unit for it?  Is that sending unit matched to the gauge?  Did you use a different gauge with a stock sending unit?
the fan cover 90% of the radiator

timing is at 10 btdc, vac off and plugged, idle at 900, yes plug 1

oh yes i just randomly wrote numbers on the stock gauge and hoped they were right....
its installed in the intake mani, sendingunit goes straight to the matching gauge
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#9 Indiana

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 11:16 AM

As long as the outer diameter of the fan blade has at least a flat ring around it that acts as a shroud.  You remember what your stock secondary or pusher fan looked like?  This is actually a shroud and the fan being that large should work.  

The stock gauge has no where near the same readings that you have assigned to it.  3/4 on a stock gauge is more like 250. The "C" mark is about 130 and middle is just about 200-210.


What turbo and how much boost?  Its not supposed to glow.  I'll assume there are no CATs?  What injectors?  Fuel pressure regulator?  
]
Pull FPR reference hose off the throttlebody and hook a vacuum gauge to it, rev the motor and see that is shows a vacuum.  If it shows vacuum it will also show boost so it can act on the FPR.  If the throttlebody was rebuilt and just a tiny bit of sealant if any was used it could clog the passage.  Check that if you haven't already.  

Does ignition timing change if you unplug the knock sensor?

IF your knock sensor was dead or broken wire and the ignitor is already in safety mode and pulled timing back and then base timing was set  then you drive it there will be no bucking or jerking as timing is pulled back because it already is.  If at this time you also have a bad vac. adv. it won't pull it back either.  





#10 Skullzaflare

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:05 PM

View PostIndiana, on 25 October 2010 - 11:16 AM, said:

As long as the outer diameter of the fan blade has at least a flat ring around it that acts as a shroud.  You remember what your stock secondary or pusher fan looked like?  This is actually a shroud and the fan being that large should work.  

The stock gauge has no where near the same readings that you have assigned to it.  3/4 on a stock gauge is more like 250. The "C" mark is about 130 and middle is just about 200-210.


What turbo and how much boost?  Its not supposed to glow.  I'll assume there are no CATs?  What injectors?  Fuel pressure regulator?  
]
Pull FPR reference hose off the throttlebody and hook a vacuum gauge to it, rev the motor and see that is shows a vacuum.  If it shows vacuum it will also show boost so it can act on the FPR.  If the throttlebody was rebuilt and just a tiny bit of sealant if any was used it could clog the passage.  Check that if you haven't already.  

Does ignition timing change if you unplug the knock sensor?

IF your knock sensor was dead or broken wire and the ignitor is already in safety mode and pulled timing back and then base timing was set  then you drive it there will be no bucking or jerking as timing is pulled back because it already is.  If at this time you also have a bad vac. adv. it won't pull it back either.
i didnt "assign" it, it was a joke, thats where the stock gauge sits with my aftermarket gauge
small 16g 10.5psi
both cats completely hollowed
stock 88 black and green (dont leak)
stock FPR, idles 38psi, boosts 52psi

ive never touched the knock sensor, same knock box i used on other engine fine, but the TB/sensors were on the engine when i got it (was running fine in his car)
ill put the bur's back in before i leave for work, and tonight when i leave ill see if the manifolds glowing when i stop
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#11 Skullzaflare

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 01:47 PM

Ok I couldn't find the bur7's so I threw the bpr7ix in. In wendys drive thru, no boosting at all, I was idling temps climbing, hit 220 and factory gauge was almost on red line. There's no way the car is suppose to do that from factory
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#12 Skullzaflare

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 02:01 PM

Ok I couldn't find the bur7's so I threw the bpr7ix in. In wendys drive thru, no boosting at all, I was idling temps climbing, hit 220 and factory gauge was almost on red line. There's no way the car is suppose to do that from factory
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#13 Indiana

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 02:40 PM

Stock gauge, stock sending unit?

Aftermarket gauge, what sending unit and where is it?

Aftermarket gauge isn't going to work with a stock sending unit but you knew that right?

Easy to test the knock sensor even without a timing light, just unplug it while the engine is running and timing should retard about 7-12degrees and you'll hear that.

#14 Skullzaflare

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 02:48 PM

View PostIndiana, on 25 October 2010 - 02:40 PM, said:

Stock gauge, stock sending unit?

Aftermarket gauge, what sending unit and where is it?

Aftermarket gauge isn't going to work with a stock sending unit but you knew that right?

Easy to test the knock sensor even without a timing light, just unplug it while the engine is running and timing should retard about 7-12degrees and you'll hear that.
stock gauge with stock unit yes, impossible to switch i have a mechanical aftermarket gauge
the gauge is hooked in where the EGR vacuum switch was near the watertemp gauge
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#15 Caliber308

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 08:11 PM

View PostSkullzaflare, on 24 October 2010 - 09:42 PM, said:

i already ordered the kit to rebuild the Tb
yea runs fine, unless under heavy load, heavy load it tends to fall on its face til you let ogg to 1/2 throttle
doesnt use any coolent at all
has 1 month old sr20 aluminum radiator with 16" electric fan

engine/waterpump has 88k miles on it

doesnt blow any coolent or bubble
wideband doesnt say its lean, cruising is 16-17afr, boost is 12.3afr, idle is 14-16afr

Cruising is too lean !!!! 14.7 afr is ideal, 16 afr at idle, too lean again.

Bill

Edited by Caliber308, 25 October 2010 - 08:13 PM.

87 ESI-R: J.E.s 8 to 1 .040 over, Tims roller cam, Roller rockers,Marnal Head(ported and polished) Scheider HD valvesprings, SS Valves,Zero bal,TDO5H 17 C, K.V., OVC HP, Turbo X/S RFL, Aeromotive FPR, 950/1150 injectors, Walbro , MAF-T, AEM UEGO, Summit dig. CD Ignition. box , Mallory 67k coil,D2s.

#16 Skullzaflare

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 08:20 PM

View PostCaliber308, on 25 October 2010 - 08:11 PM, said:

Cruising is too lean !!!! 14.7 afr is ideal, 16 afr at idle, too lean again.

Bill
what would you suggest i check? in tank fuel filter is clean, fuel pressure is perfect (no hiccups), injectors are good
only thing i can think would be from the leaking throttle body, or 88 ecu, or enginebay fuel filter, or the 1g mas
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#17 Caliber308

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 08:34 PM

Leaking Throttle body needs to be addressed. 1st Gen set ups have a tendency to run rich, so I would dismiss that. If you have the money, install the Maf-Translator set up. That way you can adjust the fuel in accordance with your Wideband.Also, try a set of NGKBPR8 spark plugs.

Bill

Edited by Caliber308, 25 October 2010 - 08:42 PM.

87 ESI-R: J.E.s 8 to 1 .040 over, Tims roller cam, Roller rockers,Marnal Head(ported and polished) Scheider HD valvesprings, SS Valves,Zero bal,TDO5H 17 C, K.V., OVC HP, Turbo X/S RFL, Aeromotive FPR, 950/1150 injectors, Walbro , MAF-T, AEM UEGO, Summit dig. CD Ignition. box , Mallory 67k coil,D2s.

#18 Skullzaflare

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 08:43 PM

View PostCaliber308, on 25 October 2010 - 08:34 PM, said:

Leaking Throttle body needs to be addressed. 1st Gen set ups have a tendency to run rich, so I would dismiss that. If you have the money, install the Maf-Translator set up. That way you can adjust the fuel in accordance with your Wideband.Also, try a set of NGKBPR8 spark plugs.

Bill
i plan to get one but dont have the money right now. my throttle body rebuild kit comes in tomorrow along with my oil pan gasket.
any other ideas?
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#19 Caliber308

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 08:53 PM

View PostSkullzaflare, on 25 October 2010 - 08:43 PM, said:

i plan to get one but dont have the money right now. my throttle body rebuild kit comes in tomorrow along with my oil pan gasket.
any other ideas?


Not until you fix the leaking Throttle Body. :)  Your A/F Gauge will tell you.

Bill
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#20 Skullzaflare

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 09:10 PM

View PostCaliber308, on 25 October 2010 - 08:53 PM, said:

Not until you fix the leaking Throttle Body. :)  Your A/F Gauge will tell you.

Bill
Ao the tb leak can cause this?
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