marksweet Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 By opening the unmetered side of a 1 G mas from two cylinders to one large oval the G54B will draw in lots more air allowing the use of a 900cc primary injector. These 900cc injectors were used on the Colts using throttle body's as their secondaries. With the extra air being drawn in you will NOT wash the cylinder walls with fuel. I ended up running a 900cc primary along with a 1080cc secondary and two 480cc additional injectors with the stock intake. The mods to this intake were that the TB and intake mouth were bored to 52mm though I do not believe this is necesary. I also bypassed all of the coolant I could to keep the intake carge as cool as possible. MPI is not possible for a great majority due to cost alone. I was running a total of 2940cc's of gas/minute whuch kept my 20G happy even at 25 psi. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitsumark Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 Good info..I am currently running a modded 1st gen MAS that MikeK modded and doing so with 2 Starion green squirters..When I first installed his MAS,it idled very lean with the primary.So I popped in 2 greens,and walla.Perfect A/F mixture at idle and mad rich at 15psi..It seems when opening up the 1st gen MAS,it flows enough air to balance things out at idle with the 2 Starion secondaries.I used to run 2 greens at the track on the Starion MAS and if it sat idleing more than a minute it would build up fuel and start chocking..Had to stab the throttle every few seconds when waiting in line..Well,those days are gone...Its well tuned now and it seems theres plenty more fuel for a few more psi's..Up to 18psi I go...Point is,on top of what Mark has said,opening up the 1st gen MAS and running 2 greens is a definite good alternative to those of us that cant afford or dont have the time for an MPI swap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksweet Posted August 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 Mark it's nice to see that I am not alone. I had heard that it couldn't be done so many times that I just enjoyed what I had. I went with the 900cc to save a bit as far as gas mileage went. Modding a 2nd generation mas is the next step. Since I had an SDS 2 injector setup with the additional injectors mounted in the intake at the y's I am sure the 2nd gen mas would work and supply even greater gains forthe MPI shy. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jinx Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 milton posted some excellent info on ix.net explaining, running 2 green injectors with a hacked mafs plus fuel pressure tweaks... about 2 years ago. Made so much sense, but seems everyone was asleep at the time. A SAFC would tune it to a crisp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitsumark Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 Read my mods.....The car idled nice without the computer,but it definetly fine tuned A/F curves alot..My car was just tuned by a speed shop using the Apex..Havent touched the computer myself since it was installed...Seems a little difficult..I'll try to get the car on a dyno soon and see what I get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jinx Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 ahhh, ok, didn't see the safc in your sig. Only read the "idles great.. runs mad rich at 15psi" part. Couldn't be "well tuned" like that. Is a super16G same as a "big" 16G. 550cfm vs 505 ? Seems like you've put to gether a nice package marksweet do you "mod" a 2g mafs ? Or do you mean, adapt it to the starquest ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksweet Posted August 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 I never got to work with a 2nd generation mas but am confidant one woud work with the properinjector and add even more power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
importwarrior Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 im going to try 2 secondary injectors with the GM MAF and translator setup. got nothing to loose by trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted August 4, 2003 Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 I want to see a part number of this "Colt" 900cc injector. What year, make, & model of car it came on, with what engine number? Please give a complete list of all specs needed to identify the part for ordering, or finding in a junk yard. I hate incomplete information. All it does is confuse people into buying the wrong part. Please post what it takes to get that part, so the information actually helps someone else do it. The way it is posted now is just a "I got what you don't" type of post that helps no one. I know that is not how you posted it, but again, I hate seeing incomplete info on posts that the person obviously has the info to give, but didn't, for whatever reason? Front wheel drive models only? All Wheel Drive models only? Both? What vehicle did you get yours from? Or, how did you know what to order? I've seen many TBI injectors that won't work in our TB. I have a Haynes manual with the Colt injection in it, and it shows MPI for the Colt? The manual is an '85. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksweet Posted August 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 Tim I wish I could have been more specefic. I only repeated what the Canadian fellow told me on the phone. The fact is that you can run a 1000cc secondary as a primary just as well. I happened to have the paperwork with the 900cc (flowsheet) and it worked well so I felt anything bigger as overkill. I have friends that work in the dismantling business who may be able to help. I'll check it out.Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted August 4, 2003 Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 OK, sounds good. Were you running 3" exhaust on it? Because I think there is a small list of other mods, besides opening up a 1G Turbo MAS, that we need to show. List of required upgrades as I see, for this to work: 3" Exhaust to lean it out even more. Upgrade Fuel Pump for more volume BCFPR to raise or lower baseline from stock base of 37-39PSI. List of highly recommended Mods to support a 900+cc injector as a primary in the stock TB: 52mm TB butterfly I would run no bigger than stock cam, because a big cam will make the engine load up with that big of a primary injector. 16G or bigger CFM turbo. You have to need a bigger injector, so a big turbo is common sense. 14+ PSI boost level set with at least an MBC Those are what I can think of first off. To be honest, I would not recommend a 900cc injector as a primary to the average S/Q owner. 750cc is more like it, and would run better for city driving. A 900cc one will have problems there. Opening up the MAS will tend to lose drivability too. All in all, whatever car runs this type of set-up will suffer in city traffic to be a monster that doesn't like stop and go, but will be great for WOT on the highway. It will also cruise on the rich side. I don't know if I could readily believe it won't cruise rich, unless I saw it for myself. It just seems that all of us want to play around with bigger this, and badder that, but we really don't have the resources at our fingertips to do it right, and this set-up really requires a dyno tune after the injector is put in, and maybe even then, your particular application may not work with it? So, if you have money for a couple of dyno hours, and other mechanic type resources to do the work yourself, then it is more prudent to experiment. If not, then your experimentation may hurt your engine more than help, leaving you with more than you bargained for. I am not picking on this particular mod specifically, but rather a general rule for all such tuning, and engine performance mods. Take it a little at a time, or get it on a dyno to know for sure, before driving it for too long with gas washing the cylinders, etc.., and you not knowing it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitsumark Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 Tim,You are right when you say this mod is not for every Starquester.But if you are running anything bigger than a 16G,and the other mods that you stated,this setup works beautifully..Notice the mods youve recommended for this to work,and notice the mods in my sig..Very similar..Plus all the head,intake,and tb porting not listed.Even though my car is running on an Apex S-AFC now,the drivability in the city was great and stayed on the high stoich almost rich side of the gauge when at idle. Even before the Apex it never loaded up on fuel,even after idling more than 15min. And once going,throttle response was much quicker and cleaner than when I first installed the hacked 1st gen MAS and still had the primary in it..As a matter of fact,it idled very lean and the motor ran rough..The only downside so far Ive noticed so far is obviously fuel mileage..I respect your opinion about not using a 900cc+ injector for city driving.You stated "it would have problems there"..Even though Ive only been running this setup for a week so far,Id have to say I finally found the right combo for using TBI injection with big boost..I havent seen any negative effects yet.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboTSI Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 I am thinking about bumping up to another larger injector too cause I will be running a T3 this year turboTSI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 Again, please post where you guys are getting these 900cc injectors that fit our TBI!!! We need info that actually helps someone get one, and try it out? Thanks, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitsumark Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 I never heard of the injectors these guys are speaking of.In my threads I am referring to running the 2 Starion greens.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksweet Posted August 5, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 I ran a green secondary until I came aross a 900cc. Then I got a phone call from a Canadanian member who told me that the Colts by Mitsubishi used a 900cc secondary that pops into our cars. It saves a little fuel over the green secondary. As has been ststed above this mod is for cars that have plenty of mods already and do not want to go to MPI for one reason or another. I also had an sds system with two 480cc injectors mounted in the intake. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted August 6, 2003 Report Share Posted August 6, 2003 This thread is not going anywhere, or providing any useful info. PLEASE complete the information. I can't waste all my time doing all the legwork all the time for people who provide incomplete info. WILL SOMEONE GET SOMETHING UP HERE THAT TELLS US ANYTHING WORTHWHILE? This is a ghost injector that does not exist, and I'm calling out anyone to verify it does. Give some proof, prices, where it can be bought, all info on the car it came in, etc... Please don't post unless something is going to actually help us figure out what this injector really is? Don't say, "I think", this or that, but someone please research this, and either verify it, or we can pass it off as someone sending Mark a Starion injector that doesn't flow like it should, or something? This Colt TBI unit needs verified to actually have existed, and that the injector is one that will fit in our cars. I say it didn't, and there is no such injector. Sorry, but you'll need a lot more than heresay to convince me. 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metric-man Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 Tim, I hear ya nothing worse than being teased. This is what I have so far... 1984-85 Mirage , Cordia , Tredia , and Starion used the same TBI set up This information I gathered in a Chilton's manual.. I looked in the Mitsubishi CAPS program to see if i could find the TBI injectors and like you said MPI with fuel rails...I had a friend I use to drive their 1985 Mirage so I'm familure with the model.. I have pulled injectors from a Mirage turbo in the junk yard to supplement the injectors in my flat body LE 1986... I never tested their flow rates just plug an play (to replace leaky injectors) and noticed no difference in performance or economy. I even suspected lower flow rates so I keep the throttle light. Mitsubishi played around allot with their injectors. I dont think your find 2 in 4 with the same part number that flow the same. So this is a line of questions to help narrow this down to a conclusion.. What are the flow rates in the sequential injectors 550? two at that rate = 1100 What are the flow rates in the non sequential injectors 1000 ?secondary and 600 primary = 1600 http://pw1.netcom.com/~rvtucker/injector.htm According to Vince Tucker (yellow and blue coded injectors) I have only once seen a yellow injector and for that fact once a blue injector because they turn green after exposed to gasoline. The rest of the sequential injectors I have seen are black primary and green (blue) secondary I figure most of the used injectors I have seen are our of 1988 or 1987 cars. I don't know where I learned this from but I always thought secondary injectors were around 1200cc's (I know what I'm doing with my free time in the fuel's class...) So here is the real clincher the 1985 Galant used a single injector TBI but the injectors clip in attached at a 45 degree angle and it would make sense if it was around 900cc's. So that is a question for Marksweet? Is it a 45 degree angle connection injector? Tim I don't see the big difference between the 1000cc an the 900cc injector. I'm going to use (Like Importwarrior) 2 secondary green injectors and the GM MAS and Ramchargers translator with a alcohol H2o injector in the OVCP but I'm tuning with a 5 wire O2 and an EGT with the Translator so I know I won't be guessing stochiometric deficiencies / efficiencies.. I just need to know if and I haven't cornered Ramchargers on this yet I will need a Tach adapter for the translator to read the RPM's does any one have a favorite but that's another post in Virtual Mechanic http://www.starquestclub.com/index.pl?boar...;num=1060185135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jinx Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 I don't see what the big deal is. 900cc vs a green is splitting hairs Even with the correct info, what are u gonna do with it. Gamble with one from a 18yr old car, or go to the dealer and feel some pain. Folks have got very good results running 2 greens... a lonnnggg time ago. Even without safc and GM maft, which only would improve tuning significantly. Only makes sense to mess with TBI if you're getting parts cheap imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 I don't see what the big deal is. 900cc vs a green is splitting hairs Even with the correct info, what are u gonna do with it. Gamble with one from a 18yr old car, or go to the dealer and feel some pain. Folks have got very good results running 2 greens... a lonnnggg time ago. Even without safc and GM maft, which only would improve tuning significantly. Only makes sense to mess with TBI if you're getting parts cheap imo. Sorry, but success in my eyes, cannot be achieved with 2 secondary injectors. Been there, tried that. So have many others. One common conclusion was it is too rich to drive on the street, with any set-up you come up with. Drag racing at the track? Sure, it works, but you have to raise the idle to 1500 or so, and clear it out real good before launching, or it will still want to load up. No way can that be street driven. I even tried lowering the pressure down to like 30PSI, and it still ran way rich. Could be my big (510 lift, 284 duration)roller cam, but I have the cone filter on an unmodified 1G Turbo MAS with no can (of course), 2"SST mandrel hardpipes electropolished on the inside, Marnal head w/pocket port, and unshrouded valve seat areas, hogged out exhaust manifold & turbine housing inlet, 3"SST mandrel electropolished DP, 3"SST mandrel exhaust with a 5' one piece straight section, and 3" DynoMAX ultraflo straight thru muffler, 3 wire O2. '89 secondary is 1080cc. That is 180cc more than this so called 900cc injector. Maybe the difference is enough to be able to tune that one? Don't know till you try, but that injector is a definite breakthrough, if it even exists. Thus the challenge to anyone who can come up with it. Worth the dealer price? What is someone going to do now? Gamble with a used injector? Most will. Pay the dealer price? Yep. So what option is different? There is no difference, except the injector in question is said to be 900cc's! That's a big difference, worth trying since the 1080 is almost tunable, but not quite. Big deal? You bet it is. Here is something posted way back: For those of you that may be stuck finding a secondary injector, I found one that works(well up to this point). The injector came from a 1988 Mitsubishi Mirage Turbo, I will have to check the part number though. I noticed it in a boneyard and when I pulled the injector(both are black)the injector opening was about the same diameter as the secondary injector of the starquest. I didn't know the flow rate however, so I pulled both injectors since they were only $5.00. thealchemist12 Tim C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jinx Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 the difference is availability. How many turbo colts are there laying about today ? vs starquestors going multiport, parting out, selling stuff. Don't forget turbo cordias milton even mailed me photos of his "hacked to heck" 2.6 mafs he controlled his fuel pressure; baseline AND rate of rise he ran the syclone 20G turbo waaaayyyy back he posted some fuel cut info that I've seen nobody else even mentioned Obviously this cat was way ahead of the curve, and I saw absolutely no reason why his 2 greens wouldn't run as claimed >>"unmodified 1G Turbo MAS" unacceptable with ANY injector upgrade. DSMs OR starquests lo vacuum cam doesn't help safc or GM maft will fix that fuel curve u got a nice combo. Should fly once u get it sorted out oops... rain stopped. gotta run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 The MAS is unmodified because the engine runs on the lean side with stock injection, unless I run the baseline at 60 PSI. So it is just open element for now, which is a lot better than stock, and should be able to take an injector upgrade. Yes, an RRFPR is a must, and may solve my problem, using stock injectors. I got one used, and it worked for about 2 days & stopped working, so I need to rebuild it. It actually did solve the problem, but I didn't test it out enough to know the long term results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksweet Posted August 7, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 I have the flow sheet from RC Engineeringinering.900cc's. My 1 G mas is modded on the unmetered side to one large oval. The motor even idled lean. I came acrossthe900cc injector. The car had  lots ofmods. I was running 2940cc's of fuel per minutecc's/cc'swise. It did not run rich and made lotsof power. If a motor runs lean at idle itneeds fuel. Imagine what it requires at higher rpm's. It works and is for modded cars that the owners do not want or cannot afford MPI. I will be glad to discuss thidthis  with any members. Mark315-253-6088 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metric-man Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 I have the flow sheet from RC Engineeringinering.900cc's. My 1 G mas ismaddedon teunmetered sideetoone large oval. The motor even idled lean. I came acrossthe900cc injector. The car had  lots ofmods. I was running 2940cc's of fuel per minutecc's/cc'swise. It did not run rich and made lotsof power. If a motor runs lean at idle itneeds fuel. Imagine what it requires at higher rpm's. It works and is for modded cars that the owners do not want or cannot afford MPI. I will be glad to discuss thidthis  with any members. Mark315-253-6088 Dude I'm afraid to call you because I'm not sure if your from this planet What The F*^% is "ismaddedon teunmetered sideetoone "??? Mark are you ok? seriously you got me wondering about that one... Is the 900cc injector the same shape as the stock injectors? Or does it have the 45 degree electrical clip? What color is it? How many fingers am I holding up? Who's the president of the United States? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksweet Posted August 7, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 I apologize for this old sticking keyboard. I have the flowsheet from this 900cc injector. I only offered the information forthose who do not chose to follow what has been done before. My 1G mas was modded on theunmetered side to one large oval. The only way to get thecarto run properly was to reverse the injectors with the secondary as the primary. Then I ran across a 900cc which I have the flow sheet from rc engineering. With the unmetered side opened upthe motor idled lean. The mas is a massive restriction to air flow. With the proper fuel control this can be overcome. The 900cc looks like any other quest injector. I am only offering this info for those who want the extra power available at a nominal cost. I was told some Colts had them as a secondary. I no longer drive a quest, just trying to help the guys without big bankrolls. Hopefull your Canadian brother will see this post and add some technical info that I do not posess.Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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