head work headache

[BrokenquestTSI]

okay, check this out that i failed to meantion to you guys....about when i was about to put the head back in....the dowel pin and hole didnt line up from the cam to the sprocket, so we put that huge bolt in the cam(while the head was still out of the car) and turned it so that the pin went in the hole when we put it in the car. now, could this be the reason why my valves are all out of sequence? im thinkin so. Was this the right way to do it? or was there some other way to do it without turning the cam? like, manually cranking the engine so that the pin goes in the hole? i just thought of this at work last night. if thats my problem, than im pretty stupid. lol

[FlattopMike]

What you did was fine as long as the engine was set up with #1 at top dead center and the dowel pin at 12 o'clock and you installed the distributor to line up to fire #1 but as Shelby pointed out, how would you be able to do that if you didn't know where the timing mark was?

[BrokenquestTSI]

my friend that was helpin me did, but my dad and i couldnt tell where it was yesterday. so what do i have to do if my valves are out of sequence? base timing again?

[FlattopMike]

You can't get your valves out of sequence but they can be out of time.

 

Slowly turn over your engine with a wrench turning clockwise until you find the small groove on the crankshaft pulley. Take a white crayon, paind, chalk, white out or something like that and mark the groove. This will make it easier to see in the future. The follow the instructions given on setting valve timing and then ignition timing.

 

Once you say to yourself "I got it. That makes sense. That wasn't hard at all.", come back on here and tell us and we will walk you through the next check using a timing light.

[BrokenquestTSI]

ok where do i look for how to set the valve timing? i can never find anything im looking for ever when i use search. also, i wanna add to you all that when i remove the intake and try to start the engine, smoke shoots out of the throttle body. so what do you think my problem is? ive already today unbolted the power steering, air conditioning, and the tensioner and im about to remove the timing cover once i post these pics so someone can walk me though it and ill just do it myself cuz all my 'friends' are like....scared of working on my car now because we couldnt get it running after spending the whole day on it.

 

but of course i cant find the USB for the camera......but when i get it ill update. i have a few questions:

 

-to remove the main pulley on the bottom of the engine does the car have to be out of gear? (once i get that off im gonna do that thing with the white marker for the TDC mark)

 

-do i need to remove the dizzy to turn the engine in order to find TDC?

 

i wanna do this all asap, so anyone that helps walk me through it is awesome. and thanks in advance. i wanna do it all right this time so i dont have to do this anymore ya feel me? thanks again.

 

-Broken

[FlattopMike]

STOP!

 

You don't need to do any of that!

All you have to do is take off the valve cover.

[FlattopMike]

oops, sorry

starts about 1/4 way down page

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/distributor.htm

 

Read it, understand it, do it.

 

Smoke will come out of your throttle body if the valve timing is off.

[Shelby]

i'm not understanding what all your trying to do,,NEVER try to start an engine with it partialy dismantle'd ,,unless you want to roast marsh mellows

 

you need to stop every thing and learn what the hell your supose'd to be doing , you seem to be in a hell bend hurry to do some thing you have no idea how to do,, thats a good way to spend a pile of money ,,waste a lot of time and get your self iritate'd as hell

this is all cover'd very well in the FSM and in several how to pictorial threads on Starquest I-x net,,

 

http://starquest.i-x.net/viewtopic.php?t=944

 

i have 6 younger brothers all are very good mechanics how ever one of them Billy

has a hard time with understanding writen instructions , show him pics and he's fine

or show him in person once how to do it and he'l remember it for ever,,

if this is also a problem for you , just say so we can do what ever we need to help you understand what needs to be done and how to do it

[BrokenquestTSI]

well, i left it alone for now, but thanks for workin with me. i usually dont undertstand this stuff unless someone shows me. valve timing is what i need to know how to chang then right? hook me up with step by step instuctions, i dont have a password or whatever for that website you gave me. hoep to get this done soon. thanks

[mikec]

Valve timing is set by the installation of the main timing chain. With the crankshaft V-belt pully turned so the little notch IN THE REAR-MOST PULLY LIP (any other notch is just a dent in your pully!!!!) is lined up with the "T" on the timing cover the crankshaft is in the correct reference position. This puts pistons/cylinders #1 and #4 at "top dead center" of their travel. If you remove the spark plugs and shine a flashlight into the plug holes you'll see the piston tops. Or just use a small wood dowel to probe the plug holes - you'll feel the piston tops. Compare those to cyls #2 and #3 where the pistons are all the way down... you won't be able to see them and probably won't be able to touch them with the stick.

 

Inside the timing cover, the crankshaft has a sprocket (gear) that turns the timing chain; this chain then turns the sprocket on the camshaft. The camshaft sprocket is twice the diameter of the crank sprocket... so the camshaft turns exactly half the speed of the crankshaft. That's how you get "4 strokes" of the pistons for one complete engine cycle. And why pistons #1 and #4 can "both" be at top dead center. The valves for one of them will be fully closed while the other will have at least one valve open. The one with ALL valves closed is at true Top Dead Center (TDC) and is ready for the ignition/spark to make power.

 

With the crankshaft pully lined up with the "T" still, the camshaft needs to be in a certain position. The timing chain has those famous "plated links" that you line up with certain marks on the crank sprocket and camshaft sprockets when assembling the engine... but as soon as the engine is turned (starter or having the engine actually run) those marks won't line up any more - the chain does NOT make 1 revolution per engine revolution, nor per 2 engine revolutions, etc. Why? Because the chain length is NOT an even multiple of the circumference of the crankshaft sprocket. It takes something like 17 engine revolutions to happen to make the plated links line up again. That's why we always tell folks to look at the little index/roll pin that physically ties the cam sprocket to the camshaft. When the crankshaft is lined up with the "T" mark, that little roll pin will be either at 12 o'clock (if the #1 cylinder is at TDC) or 6 o'clock (if #4 is at TDC). Pop the valve cover off and look at your car. Turn the crankshaft pully bolt (clockwise only as you face the engine, turning it counter-clockwise will JUMP the timing chain and you'll have to remove the front timing cover to fix it) until the pully notch lines up with the "T" again. If your cam sprocket index pin (it's the small metal cylinder pressed into that 3/16ths or so hole in the cam sprocket & that stubby shaft that goes towards the distributor shaft) is near 6ish, turn the crankshaft exactly 1 full turn back to the "T" again. Now look at that index pin. If it's at 12o'clock or slightly earlier, the camshaft timing is GOOD. If not, you need to move the chain. Shelby has written a procedure in the FAQ describing a method to "walk" the chain a tooth at a time. Or remove the front timing cover (drain the engine coolant first!) and just re-do the chains using the plated links.

 

Next you have to verify IGNITION TIMING. This is all about how you install the distributor. With the crank pully notch still lined up with that "T" the rotor inside the distributor should be point to/touching the post that connects to the #1 spark plug wire. Take the distributor cap OFF and see where the rotor is; as you face the distributor from the fender the rotor should be pointing to roughly 10 o'clock. Look at the distributor cap; most have the cylinder numbers next to the plug towers to double-check. If the rotor is NOT pointed right:

* undo the 12mm nut holding the distributor to the cyl head.

* SLOWLY draw the distributor out. It shouldn't take too much effort, wiggle it back and forth to help the o-ring slide out of the cyl head. As the distributor's little gear un-meshes from that cast metal stuck to the front of the camshaft you'll see the distributor turn a little bit - that's normal. Note how much it turns (and what direction) for the next step.

* With the gears un-meshed (you don't need the distributor totally out, just enough to get it's gear free from the camshaft) turn the rotor to that 10 o'clock position. Look at the gear and the distributor shaft near it - you should see a small line and notch - line those up. Those are factory markers to line up the distributor. When lined up, look at the rotor again... it'll be off a bit from 10 o'clock: by the amount the distributor turns when the gears un-meshed, right?

* Slide the distributor in, letting the rotor/shaft turn as the gears mesh again. When done, the rotor should be pointed to 10 o'clock.

* Don't tighten the nut yet... look at the edge of that "ear" the nut grabs. See the mark on the edge of it? Line that up with the center of the screw stud. This gets the ignition timing fairly close - close enough to make the engine start.

 

Install the spark plug wires. The #1 cylinder (front of engine) should be in the 10 o'clock position. The #3 wire is next; it goes in the 2 o'clock position. #4 goes to 5 o'clock, and the #2 plug wire goes to 7 o'clock. The firing order of this engine, like most 4 cylinder engines, is 1-3-4-2. The cylinders do NOT fire in sequential order; they fire in this oddball order to minimize shaking/vibrations.

 

Things that can screw you up:

* the v-belt pully has a rubber damper that connects the actual v-belt gooves to the center section. If that rubber part fails, the pully assembly is useless: the pullies are no longer tied to the center section. That means the little notch is out of alignment too - so lining it up with the "T" is meaningless.

 

* There should be a woodruf key (a small metal sliver) in the crankshaft that fits into a groove on the inside of the pully; this is what lines up the pully to the rest of the engine. If that's missing, the notch on the rear-most pully lip is meaningless again.

 

* The index/shear pin on the camshaft sprocket can bust... so the sprocket and camshaft are NOT lined up. That pin does the same thing as the woodruf key does for the crankshaft stuff. Try to feed a thin wire through the index pin; if it'll pass through easily the pin is okay. If the wire "bottoms out" then the pin has busted and your sprocket & cam are totally out of timing whack. You need to dis-assemble that big bolt on the front of the camshaft, take the parts out, drive out the remnants of the old pin, and install a fresh one. Those index pins are NOT supposed to be re-used either; once they've been installed a while they loose some spring rate and can fall out.

 

mike c.

[patra_is_here]

NOTE: when i wrote this i assumed you had the front cover on the engine and that the engine was more or less assembled completely, but with improper cam timing, and that the valve cover is removed already.

 

OK. dude. heres what you need to do.

#1. take your spark plugs out

#2. take your battery out

#3. take out your distributor

#4. look at the area of the front cover, just above the crank pulley, notice that there are tick marks and the words 10BTC ... T ... 10ATC

#5. look at the main pulley on the crankshaft. the belt pulley. look at it. there are three grooves that the belts fit in. look a the groove closest to the engine. its the smallest groove. look at the edge of that groove, closest to the engine.

#6. now, using a ratchet and socket on the big bolt on the front crank pulley, slowly rotate the crank clockwise while watching the edge of the groove as mentioned in step #5.

#7. at some point, you should see a very tiny notch on the crank pulley, nearest the front of the engine. line up that notch/mark with the "T" that is cast on the front cover, as mentioned in #4

 

your pistons are now at Top Dead Center

 

now, without cause the chain to move, and without causing the crank puller to move, you need to unbolt the cam gear, and place it so that the dowel hole is straight up, and the 12 oclock position, and then rotate the cam shaft so that it's dowel hole lines up.

 

that is how you make sure the pistons and your camshaft and valves are all in proper timing with each other. after you do that, we'll tell you have to install the distributor in the proper manner

Edited August 13, 2008 by patra_is_here

[Shelby]

well, i left it alone for now, but thanks for workin with me. i usually dont undertstand this stuff unless someone shows me. valve timing is what i need to know how to chang then right? hook me up with step by step instuctions, i dont have a password or whatever for that website you gave me. hoep to get this done soon. thanks

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geting on to Starquest i-x is no harder then it was to get on this site,,simply register and your all set

[BrokenquestTSI]

i registered to that site. :biggrinumbrella1: im gonna try that valve timing procedure and then ill check back. thanks

[BrokenquestTSI]

well, thanks to all of your guys and Dasgunner for comin to help me today....my cars runnin. hoorrayy. im so releived. now that it runs, i let it off the jackstands, and coolant was steadiy leaking from what looks like somewhere around the oil pump....

[patra_is_here]

water pump probably

[PDX87Starion]

Water from the pump flows through the timing cover.

If it is not sealed, cooland can go right into the oil pan.

 

So, make sure you dont have coolant in your oil.

 

But more likely its a loose hose clamp or a bad hose.

[Shelby]

if the water pump is left set with out coolant in it for a longtime the internal seals will dry up and it may leak real bad when you do add coolant again ,will it seal back up MAYBE but it could take a very long time

[BrokenquestTSI]

well thanks shelby for the advice on how to 'walk the chain' cuz i did it a few teeth, and timing was right again. now, i rode it around the block after putting some water in cuz it leaks out anyway, and it ended up overheating, and the the oil pan must need a new gasket im buyin tonight and a few bolts cuz it was missing some by the timing cover. and should i replace the thermostat as well while im at it? i already have that gasket to use with that. thanks guys for helpin me get up and runnin good again.

 

-Broken

 

ps: takeoff seams alittle less powerful and resposive....would oil pressure and stuff make that happen? cuz at one point the oil pressure went up

[DasGunner]

well thanks shelby for the advice on how to 'walk the chain' cuz i did it a few teeth, and timing was right again. now, i rode it around the block after putting some water in cuz it leaks out anyway, and it ended up overheating, and the the oil pan must need a new gasket im buyin tonight and a few bolts cuz it was missing some by the timing cover. and should i replace the thermostat as well while im at it? i already have that gasket to use with that. thanks guys for helpin me get up and runnin good again.

 

-Broken

 

ps: takeoff seams alittle less powerful and resposive....would oil pressure and stuff make that happen? cuz at one point the oil pressure went up

The timming was 180 Deg`s off I had to leave for my Doctors app after it fired up ,Did you set the timming with the light before driving it around the block?That may be why the car didn`t feel the same to ya when taking off...Das

[Shelby]

you do understand that if it did happen you need to plan on redoing the timeing chain sysem befor long it oviousely has too much slop

[BrokenquestTSI]

what do you mean redo the timing chain system?

[DasGunner]

what do you mean redo the timing chain system?

There is plenty of tesion on the timming chain the cam gear was sitting on the perch when we pushed in on the oilpump side to get the chain to jump a tooth at a time bringing the spring pin back to 12 Oclock,followed by bolting it back to the cam

[BrokenquestTSI]

ok, i do not know how to use a timing light because i never really used one but im willing to learn. im goin to the store now to get a oil pan gasket because when i drove it the oil was leaking from the oil pan. also need a thermostat, and i gotta get a water pump gasket so that might stop leaking to. cant have that goin on. tryin to get it runnin right before driving it ya feel me?

[Shelby]

did you look to see if the pump or the gasket was leaking , odds are it's not the gasket but any thing is posible ,

as to why redo the chains if the timeing did jump then the chains are worn ,simple as that,, new or good chains can not jump timeing when the engine is turn'd counter clock wise

 

the timeing chain comes in a kit or two kits one for cam and one for cam and bal shaft, it has all guides and gears include'd , actualy there are 3 kits one is a bal shaft elim kit

 

you NEVER replace part of the chain system you replace it all at one time

[BrokenquestTSI]

yeah i understand that, i shoudl get that from dad. im right now tryin to get up and runnin good enought to....ya know, drive to the store.....or work(like 2 mins away and im tired of walkin), or to someones house....ect. I got the oil pan gasket and water pump gasket(just in case), but the oil pump gasket they gave me after i asked for one for a chrysler conquest, they gave me one for a 6-cyl chrysler. wt.... i hate auto parts stores.....they always get it wrong. you guys know...would it still work maybe?