interest in billett aluminum rods ? now with pricing

[Chad]

I'm going to have this copied :

 

http://webpages.charter.net/catsamuel/DCP00935.JPG

http://webpages.charter.net/catsamuel/DCP00936.JPG

http://webpages.charter.net/catsamuel/DCP00937.JPG

http://webpages.charter.net/catsamuel/DCP00938.JPG

 

It's from Team Sakura and it's a proven product, not a prototype. Since I'm making a set for my own use, I wanted to see if there is interest in others getting in on this with me, the more we can make, the less it costs for all involved.

 

It's made of 7075 aluminum, this is stronger than mild steel, but the weight of normal aluminum. I have no way to attest to the strenght limits of this part, but it's a good 3x's the mass of the stock rod, and stockers are proven to 600+ HP in several setups. I'd say that given the mass and meterial used, it's a 1000+ HP capable rod.

 

The reason I'm going this route is weight reduction, this rod alone removes about a 1/2 poud per rod from the reciprocating mass (635 grams vs. 840 stock). it's over 2 pounds total, this makes a huge difference in high-end HP as this mass has to change direction twice every rotation. That translates to a LOT of wasted energy above 5000 RPM.

 

 

edit 4-25-07

 

I found the origional manufactured of this rod, he still has the program and an identical sampe rod.

 

pricing will be:

 

Up To 10 Sets Rods $575.30 Per Set + shipping

 

10 Sets & Up Would Be $504.20 Per Set + shipping

 

3 Weeks Approx Delivery

 

these are his wholesale prices, I'd not be making any $$ on these.

 

 

 

Again, this is the same rod made for sakura which is proven to hold over 1000 HP, but with a NEW 15% stronger material this time. Longevity of the rod depends on your intended use. As xtremeboost has shown, they will take far more than the manufacturer suggests with regards to cycle time.

 

 

 

By the way , we have a set of those very rods with about 1000 passes and about 10 years of use with zero issues and the material now-a-days is much cleaner and stronger so we can expect these to be just as good if not better !!!

 

updated list as of 4-16-07

 

Participants that are comited to buy

 

1: Chad

2: Csdisme

3:

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[scotty]

interested, are they going to be threaded into the rod like that ? or take a bolt that captures the rod/cap togehter.

[YELLOWHELL]

Do you have a ball park figure? 500? 1000?

[Chad]

The current design is proven, but I don't know of any with long term (daily driven) proof. I'd like to see an all steel ARP fastening system too. It's something we can have changed for sure. I'll try to find a suitable rod bolt set we can use for it (something off the shelf).

 

I'm open to other suggestions as well.

 

It uses a stock bearings and a stock diamter wrist pin BTW, it can be used wtih press fit pins or floaters.

[Chad]

My target is $600, but It will depend on the time to turn the 3D rendering into a program, and how busy the shop I take it to is. I know from experiance, if they are busy, they always charge more :wink: I'll probably take it to a few places for costing.

 

I have one guy who may be able to do the 3D for me at cost and I can get better quotes that way.

 

Machine time and material are about $400 per set of 4 I'm estimating.

[raytech]

just out of curiousity, with the thickness of the rod being so much larger, will there be any clearance issues at all? I know they come from the sakura, but there is also alot of custom work done there. I just want to know if the total cost (accomodation) will be affected?

 

I am definately liking the idea.

 

Also what about the steel bolt in the aluminum rod? will that cause longevity issues?

[ZPI28]

Also what about the steel bolt in the aluminum rod? will that cause longevity issues?

 

This has been done for many years.. have you ever seen an aluminum bolt? Its proven everyday. I think this would be a great deal since a set of Pauter Rods will cost ya $750+..

 

 

Steven

[cashsaudio]

I'm very interested Found some other rods that goes for about 800 but can't remember where tho but if you can get it to 600 or around there I'm in.

[Chad]

well I searched arround for a few hours on custom rod building sites, they ALL use steel bolts in aluminum threads, even the ones used on $$$,$$$ motors, so I don't think there is any real concern there. This aluminum is hard as steel, so the threads aren't likely to tear out or fatique.

 

I'll put a rod on my R&D block, see what clearance it has...

[raytech]

Also what about the steel bolt in the aluminum rod? will that cause longevity issues?

 

This has been done for many years.. have you ever seen an aluminum bolt? Its proven everyday. I think this would be a great deal since a set of Pauter Rods will cost ya $750+..

 

 

Steven

 

how many "manufactures" use steel bolts in in aluminum rods. and how long do the motors you speak of last? I have seen aluminum bolts, but i would prefer titanium since it has properties closer to aluminum than steel does. espeicailly the expansion property. aluminum and titanium have heat dissapation properties that are more similar than steel and aluminum.

[Distorted.Clarity]

i would ask "burton" if he can make them

the 3d im sure someone here could do for free

 

that would keep the cost to a min!

[Distorted.Clarity]

i had you in mind but, figured you would have stepped to the plate if you wanted to draw them up

as for mark.. doubt his boss would want to but if they were paid then maybe his boss would go for it

[smog]

my only concern i with daily driving, as I hear aluminum rods had a tendancy to stretch fairly fast. I'd tsay these would be geared more torwards race engines

[Burton]

I am going to be looking into getting this designed- just the CAD. Like outcast said, machines tend to require different programming. Actually, most shops use one certain type of programming software and the machines are setup to run that software. However, most of that programming is able to take generic CAD files and convert them to a usable file- then their able to make programs for whatever machines they use.

 

Our shop is capable of doing the whole thing start to finish, but due to our workload machine time is at a premium. I can buy machine time at a discount since I'm an employee, but I would bet mill time would still be in the neighborhood of $200/hr, not including the aluminum cost (current rates are $300/hr). Local mom and pop shops will have a lot cheaper rate. There is one other option I'm looking at. A friend of mine bought his own mill about a year ago and started doing machine work on the side. I'm not sure if he's still doing it, but if he'd answer his damn phone I could find out- I'm sure he'd do it hella cheap for me.

 

Now as far as your concerns on the steel bolt into aluminum threads- don't sweat it. Standards for steel on steel call for thread depth to be 1 1/2 times the bolt diamater- a half inch dia. bolt will require .750 thread depth. With aluminum, you just try to give yourself 2- 2 1/2 the thread depth. Also, using stroner aluminum billet will give you better strength properties as well.

 

 

I am going to be trying to help Chad get this going. I can't make any promises on any of it, but I will do my best.

[Distorted.Clarity]

i would like the cad files if you guys could hook me up

a friend i know might be able to assist for free..

also would be nice to get all the info posable for the new site i am building so i can do a write up about the idea/design

[Chad]

my only concern i with daily driving, as I hear aluminum rods had a tendancy to stretch fairly fast. I'd tsay these would be geared more torwards race engines

 

in the research I did of reputable rod manufactures, almost all of them say the "rod stretch" is a myth, that if it existed, it was in the 60's and 70's when they first came into popularity, but were made with inferior materials/techniques.

 

I obviously can't say from any experaince though that this is infact a myth. One major domestic rod shop stated they are several customers with 100,000+ miles and took them out, still measured in spec. They also had a set with 120+ hard passes at the track, they still measured in spec. This is a company that makes stuff for nascar.

[Chad]

one thing about titanium though is that it will corode if it is in contact with disimilar metals. you actually have to use gold plated tools to work with it since gold is inert.

.

 

TI bolts will add a good $100 to the set, and offer LESS strength/reliability, not a $100 worth certainly. ARP bolts are stronger than TI would be, and you can use an off-the-shelf item for this set, this means less cost and proven performance. the only advantage of TI would be wieght, and if you want TI bolts, you can source them on your own. This will be a standard bolt type so finding one wouldn't be too hard. ARP bolts are well over 200,000 PSI tensile, TI are under 100,000

 

 

the maching costs of 7075 is going to be very high since it is such a hard material. I remember I tried to make one of my RC chassis from some 7075 an the 0.050" material BENT my 1/2" press mold! its almost like harded steel. very trong but a beotch to work with.

 

I find 7075 is much easier to machine than steel or 6061, it's hard so the chips come off completely intact and easily, and don't turn to butter like 6061 does. I often get 8'+ ribbons of 7075 when I use my boring bits on it. 7075 doesn't heat the mill bit like steel does so the mill can be run a little faster than it would on a steel part, you can also take out a larger piece per rotation, which = even faster milling.

 

 

how many "manufactures" use steel bolts in in aluminum rods.

 

every one, exclusivly.

[Chad]

I am going to be looking into getting this designed- just the CAD. .

 

I was hoping you would be able to help, but I wasn't going ot volunteer you :wink:

 

anything you can contribute will be compensated for, and appreciated.

[Burton]

also, 7075 aluminum (military aircraft grade) is heavier then say 6061 (aircraft grade) or 5052 (marine grade). you may be able to get around the corosion of the titanum with the 7075 though since it dose have a large amound of titanium in it. but the maching costs of 7075 is going to be very high since it is such a hard material. I remember I tried to make one of my RC chassis from some 7075 an the 0.050" material BENT my 1/2" press mold! its almost like harded steel. very trong but a beotch to work with.

 

 

I must say, while it is harder to work, its still better than just about any steel. I mill mostly steel- A1, A2, P20, Vicount, stainless and many other tool steels. Alot of the stuff we cut is around 400-500 on the Brinell hardness scale. 7075 is around 150, so its still easier to cut than P20 or A1 and both of those can be cut fairly easily and quickly if you know what you're doing

[backslider]

I work at a large machine shop Smith International. Although we arent allowed to use our machines for personal use, I have a good friend who is a programmer here. He used to be a Iscar sales rep and before that a machinist and programmer @ Baker Hughes with me. I wont see him till Monday If any additional help is needed let me know.

Out of curiosity how are you going to determine the tolerances? It would be nice to somehow get a print on a rod just to see where the tight tolerances are and how much they give you to play with. We all know which areas are crtical.

 

Its really a shame that I work at a machine shop but I canot work on anything personal...If I could I could toss these on a CMM to map them, then write a program in a Intgrex or Okuma or have my programmer write a g code and machine it on a Haas.

 

 

btw is there any issues with sakuru(sp) or the shop that built the originals (copyright)

[Chad]

btw is there any issues with sakura or the shop that built the originals (copyright)

 

I can't find the origional rod builder, and I can't get Sakura to respond. Last time I tried to have them sell me stuff, they werent interested. Basicaly they are a race team, not a retailer.

 

If we make atleast 10% of changes to the design ,then we will be free of liability anyway. It's just nice to have a wroking model to get a base line from. It's not much different from taking a stock rod and improving it, just this that is closer to our desired finnsihed product than if I took a stock steel rod in. Most of the changes I'd make have to do with changing some profies and adding detail to areas that to me seem to have room for improvement (removing stress risers etc).

 

Any one that has somethig to offer the project is welcome to contribute, anything we can do ourselfes will reduce the cost for all of us.

 

I'll move this to the GP section when we actualy have a product to sell, in the mean time this is just an info/resource gathering post.

[Chad]

Out of curiosity how are you going to determine the tolerances? It would be nice to somehow get a print on a rod just to see where the tight tolerances are and how much they give you to play with. We all know which areas are crtical.

 

Using a real caliper (a starrett, not a harbor freight special) I checket it to a few stock rods. It is identical in rod center-to-center length, big end ID, small end ID (designed for press fit pins) and the width at both ends is 0.001" narrower than stock.

[Burton]

I work at a large machine shop Smith International. Although we arnt allowed to use our machines for personal use, I have a good friend who is a programmer here. He used to be a Iscar sales rep and before that a machinist and programmer @ Baker Hughes with me. I wont see him till Monday If any additional help is needed let me know.

Out of curiosity how is going to determine the tolerances? It would be nice to somehow get a print on a rod just to see where the tight tolerances are and how much they give you to play with. We all know which areas are crtical.

 

Its really a shame that I work at a machine shop but I canot work on anything personal...If I could I could toss these on a CMM to map them, then write a program in a Intgrex or Okuma or have my programmer write a g code and machine it on a Haas.

 

 

Gotta love the Haas'- that's what I run. Only problem with writing a G-code program for Haas is that it will be pretty much useless on other mills. I'm right with ya though- if I was still working nights I could do all of this with free machine time- plus get paid $20/hr to make em .

 

 

 

CMM and CAD files are usualy easily converted into other CAD programming software. If I can get it to the point of a CAD rendering, pretty much any shop could get it into their programming software and run with it.

 

 

First we just need to concern ourselves with the CMM aspect of it which I think I can handle the easiest. Both guys in the CMM room are buddies of mine and they are slow. I can deffinately get a deal on CMM time now as a worst case scenerio. Best case scenerio is they will just sneak it in on the side and it will cost me some beer and some smoke.

 

 

From there I have a couple of friends in the CAD dept. that could get it drawn up. Once again, I may be able to get it done on the side for cheap, but even if I had to pay for CAD time, it still shouldn't be much as this will be a fairly simple part to design. All I will need is to know some sizes and tolerances. This part of it might be a little harder because our CAD dept. is kinda busy now.

 

 

Now, on to the machining aspect. I finally found a good number for my friend. He wasn't home but I left him a message. If he does still have his mill I would bet that I can probably get this done for a decent price.

 

 

 

I'll know more about the machining whenever my friend calls me back, but I should have some sort of deffinate answer on monday or tuesday as far as the CMM/CAD stuff goes.

[Chad]

tolerance wise, it's all baised on stock parts, even a stock rod would be suitable for tolerancing the pin/bearings.

 

 

I have 8 stock rods on my bench, all are within .0005" so I'm sure any stock rod would be an adequate refrence for this.

 

One thing I'd like to change is adding a busing in the small end for floaters, most here use floater pistons/pins anyway. I'd want a press fit because you can use lightger pin and no C-clips. My primary goal is weight removal, not convieniance.

[Burton]

tolerance wise, it's all baised on stock parts, even a stock rod would be suitable for tolerancing the pin/bearings.

 

 

I have 8 stock rods on my bench, all are within .0005" so I'm sure any stock rod would be an adequate refrence for this.

 

One thing I'd like to change is adding a busing in the small end for floaters, most here use floater pistons/pins anyway. I'd want a press fit because you can use lightger pin and no C-clips. My primary goal is weight removal, not convieniance.

 

 

Well, if I can get this done I guess I'll need one of the Sakura ones and a stock one, bearings and pin too. I know jack shizzle about motor stuff, but if you guys can let me know what size tolerances to adhere to, I could use that info too.