nightwalkerancestery Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Alright guys. I need the knowledgeable and the experienced on this one. New build. Full restoration. I've gone through the entire wiring harness and fixed any issues from the PO, extended some wires for a wiring tuck, and routed them to make everything look cleaner with an upgrade to an 88/89 ICM and 88/89 ECU. I've rebuilt the engine from the bottom up. ALL new parts minus pistons. Just reused pistons since there was no need to do more than a good, quick hone for crosshatch. Currently, I'm having trouble getting the car to fire. This is nowhere near my first engine build and I've never had an issue like this, so hopefully the experienced for these cars can chime in. The Checks: Engine turns perfectly and shows 125psi down the line with new chrome rings, not yet worn to the walls. The coil fires and it gets through every wire on every cylinder. Plugs gapped at .040" The injector is firing like it should. Fuel visibly sprays in an even umbrella pattern The TPS reads its 5 volt power (can't accurately set the value until I get it running to do a TPS/ISC reset, but I have it set at .5 for its current setting) MAS is hooked up and clean (Stock for now) All VAC lines are hooked up With the crank at TDC, the cam shows JUST before 12 o'clock like it should. (Everything was assembled to factory spec with no balance shaft, FSM in front with the torque specs and tolerances right there, and all marks lined up like they were supposed to be with no problem) Oil primed like a charm ALL connectors and sensors check out perfectly fine (except ISC, but that won't cause a no-start) Everything in and out of the car works, so I have no doubt in the quality of the wire routing and connections. The X's: I have only TWO concerns as to what may be causing this issue, but I'd like some opinions. 1. The head was milled under its old owner and was milled just a little too much. I can't remember precisely, but I believe it was something like ~.004" (MAYBE .005") past the limit. I have degreed and drilled new holes with different degrees prior to assembly in the case the head height changed the cam degree too much and needed to have a few accounted for. Currently, I have it on the OEM hole. Maybe this is causing the issue? I figured if this caused anything, it would just be poor performance as there's really SUCH little change in degree with even .005" too far past limit. I wouldn't suspect it to not even start. 2. The distributor refuses to be centered. It's either too far BTDC or too far ATDC. I've checked the gears on the cam and the dizzy. I've checked everything relative. I've watched them mesh. It just won't line up. Possibly caused by the shorter head deck? So, I flipped the gear on the shaft 180* as the teeth are odd numbered and it would split the difference from the other side. It sets perfectly on TDC with the stud in center. Is this what should have to be done? NO! But, that's the only way it would center up. My guess is that the shorter head height is causing mischief, but I really don't feel like it would cause a no-start...only a rough running engine at worst. The Outcome: The engine turns perfectly with the starter and maintains compression fine, gets fuel, fire, and air, and the engine just turns and turns and doesn't even seem like it's trying to fire. The ONLY thing that shows any sign of life is a loud tail backfire after turning the starter for a while trying to start it. Something has got to be up with the timing, but every single thing checks out aside from the dizzy gear. Let me hear your opinions on the issue! Will take any ideas you've got! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skullzaflare Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 only reason it would pop from cranking would be if the distributor was 180 out from crank. if you have spark, fuel, air. there is nothing stopping it from atleast sputtering have you tried spraying some either into it? see if it coughs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-starion Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Mark the number 1 spark plug wire from the cap on the distributor. Line up the rotor with the line. No reason you shouldnt get it to run since your gettin fuel n spark. If the distributor is off one tooth itll never fire and just give a back fire. If the distributor is lined up correctly, you have a big enough window to make up for the over milled head. Line up the punch mark on the distributor gear with the line on the shaft casing. Insert the distributor with crank at tdc. Keep the distributor mounting ear line aligned with the bolt hole/stud whit inserting. The gears will self align. The only problem i could possibly think of other than that is wrong firing order. 1-3-4-2 starting from the top one closest to you looking at the front of the engine. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-starion Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 try unplugging the secondary injector and starting it. I know when i had a stuck open secondary the car would never start. Could be their pigtails Plugged in the opposite injectors too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightwalkerancestery Posted July 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 I have yet to spray ether into it because I am waiting for the other half to get home to help turn the key. Lol. Once home, I'll see what she does. I'm positive the dizzy isn't 180* out because when the crank timing mark is on TDC, the cam is just before 12 o'clock, and the dizzy sits right at about 10-11 o'clock. Unless, I'm being stupid and there's some way it can still be 180* out? hah. I will say, I had a burn-out moment when I reinstalled the dizzy and forgot to set the crank at TDC, so TDC fell on number 3. Strangely, it sputtered a LITTLE like it wanted to start before I realized it wasn't on 1. This leads me to believe something is out 180*, but darn if I can figure it out with everything checking out right... Also, I've tripple checked everything with the dizzy. From the get-go, I lined the gear mark with the housing mark. Nothing. Checked plug wires and they too were 1-3-4-2 from the get-go. Rotor pointing in the 10-11 o'clock position. Again, everything checked out. FSM in front of me every step of the way during reassembly. - Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightwalkerancestery Posted July 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Injector one is firing, injector two is sitting closed with no leaking whatsoever. Checked and cleaned injectors prior to reassembly. cleaning was only as precautionary measure. Can see primary injector spraying with OVCP off. Brand new injector clips, soldered, heat shrinked, and marked prior to cutting the old ones off. Even compared the wires to my 88 and 87 sitting beside it and they check out too. - Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-starion Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Pull a spark plug connect it to the boot and see how powerful the spark is. Last thing i could say. Tps is at what voltage with the key on?I also had a mysterious problem years ago where the car would only start with ether. Id keep spraying it in the intake pipe till she ran on her own. Eventually the problem disapeared. Is the gas fresh in the tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightwalkerancestery Posted July 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Spark strength is also something I'll have to check with the woman when she gets home. On the TPS, the green/black and green/red wire shows 4.98v and the green/black and green/yellow shows .500 volts, but I need to adjust the whole throttle assembly as it was disassembled during restoration. Tried to mark everything best I could, but only could do but so much. Working throttle does nothing in aiding start. Fuel is brand spanking new. Tank was THUROUGHLY cleaned to spotless and coated in a very light film of ATF to keep from rusting any until it could be filled with fuel. This is a FULL restoration, so everything is new or restored. Also, all fuel lines are brand new (rubber and steel lines). Steel lines were the armour coated steel lines to prevent rusting and rubber lines were replaced with new 6an stainless braided line with 6an fittings and the adapters needed for the fuel filter and fuel rail. Again, everything is brand spanking new or spotless clean throughout ENTIRE car. NOTE: No fuel leaks and pressure holds steady at about 35~40psi. NO pressure drop when pump stops. - Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-starion Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Yall got me puzzled boy! Fuel spark air compression.... No start... Sounds like your muffler bearings may be worn out... Sorry. Ive been stuck in an amusement park parking lot for 3 hours now... I need some sort of amusement since the park is unfortunatley closed and there is no action other than breathing in ppls damn exhaust fumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightwalkerancestery Posted July 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Hahah. I'll have to check those muffler bearings and make sure they're okay. Of course, the one thing I didn't replace during the build!!! :lol: This wouldn't be the first time I've puzzled people with these cars. Lol. I've had my share of timing issues throughout the years and I figure it's one thing that I'd have perfected by now. I really feel like timing is an issue. But...WHERE?!?!?!?! What in the world are you doing at a closed amusement park at near 1am breathing in exhaust fumes? Car event or fireworks?? - Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-starion Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Fireworks. What a mistake.... Im not very happy since i didnt pack any beers... If your saying your crank is at tdc and the cam dowel is at 11:59, there shouldnt be an issue there. Like i said, check your spark intensity at the plug. And maybe remove all your plugs disconnect the distributor and crank it till your try in the cylinders since youve probably dumped so much fuel in there trying to start it. Ive puzzled myself with these cars and refused to get help. Always needed to figure it out for myself lol. Ever since i went mpi. I never had an issue starting the car after a total rebuild. Cant really take long to diagnose a problem anymore. Tps, map, cts, air fuel and spark lol. None of this tps/isc reset crap and mixer bowl 2 injector setup and old wiring crap! I miss a stock engine and ecu but i dont since my drivability is a billion times better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-starion Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Ive come up with an idea if spark checks out ok! Disconnect the injectors entirely and just pop a little fuel into the tb. She if it starts like that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightwalkerancestery Posted July 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Just holiday and fireworks merits grabbing a few beers for the occasion. Don't know how the laws are in NY, but if there's no time limit I'd duck out to the nearest convenient store. Lol. MPI is the next build for my Silver 88. TBI isn't too bad when it runs like it should, but it's definitely more pain than its worth to GET it there. I feel as though just spraying some ether in would be more of an outcome than just fuel. I've been spraying fuel until the throttle plate was dripping and puddling. Strange thing was that for the longest time, the plugs weren't even wet. Finally got things sorted to where it was grabbing enough fuel. May not have had the clip all the way on the primary. I feel like once it just starts, it won't have a problem. The issue is just getting it started. I'm going through the checklist one more time and removing/reinstalling everything adjustable along with connectors one last time while I'm alone and bored. See if she just wants more attention. Lol. - Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-starion Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 I live in montreal quebec canada. Lol ny is my shipping address:) im at the la ronde six flags. Its on an island. Same island they have the montreal f1 grand prix. Im actually stuck in traffic on a section of the track haha. Even if there was a convenience store close by, they stop selling booz at 11:( anyway! I wish you good luck with your "quest" to finding the problem, and i cant wait to hear what the issue was(usually something stoopid) Cheers! With an empty glass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyquest Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 I'm only going to ask this to be thorough but when you have your crank at TDC and your cam dowel pin at 11:59 are you sure that you have #1 cylinder on its compression stroke and not on its second cycle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
importwarrior Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Have. You seen this. http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=145613 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87-88-89 Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) I have seen this happen before. You have everything in order but one piece gets broken off or wasnt there in the first place. Is the actual dowl pin in the cam gear that goes into the cam? Seen them break off and cause no start issues. Edited July 5, 2015 by 87-88-89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87-88-89 Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 I'm only going to ask this to be thorough but when you have your crank at TDC and your cam dowel pin at 11:59 are you sure that you have #1 cylinder on its compression stroke and not on its second cycle?Not possible, engine wont ever be on the second cycle if crank and cam is tdc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbrad511 Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Timing issue. If it sputtered when you had things knowingly set wrong, you've still got something set wrong. Bring #1 up to TDC with the plug out, on compression stroke. Then reset the distributor. My old Monte Carlo sat for 2 months in the front yard before I finally figured out how to actually set the initial timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightwalkerancestery Posted July 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 Okay, so most of the responses could have been answered by thoroughly reading my OP or few responses. I spoke of the gear direction in relation to the rotor and spoke of the timing mark on the dizzy. So, yes I knew of how to set it based on that. Two, like said it's impossible to have the cam on the second cycle if the dowel is in the 10:30 position. Two rotations on crank for one rotation of cam. Three, the dowel is perfectly fine. Brand new motor. Dowel was even replaced in cam sprocket as preventative maintenance. Lastly, I got the issue guys. Two small issues. For one, there was a burr on the ignition pickup inside the dizzy. It would signal to the ECU, but it was being thrown off by the burr. Rebuilt the dizzy, but it's very hard to see the shaft to pickup gap. Thank you everyone for your help and ideas. Some being slightly repetitive, but at least not ignored. My car also thanks you as she's up and running without a hitch. Mr-Starion, hope you got a cold one when you got back. Cheers with a hopefully fully glass! - Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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