polarisman14 Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 (edited) Hey all, As some of you may know I am running MPI on my Starion. I figured I would be able to get by on low to moderate boost pressures (15-20psi) on the clutch that's in the car as I was told it had an ACT stage 2 clutch in there when I purchased the car. Unfortunately, everything that the guy told me about the car when I bought it ended up being false, and this is no exception (I can only assume). I had to merge quickly into traffic the other day and when I hit third the rpms came up and the speed didn't. I got my foot out of it very quickly but I did it once more in fourth purposely just to make sure that was the case and the clutch was really slipping. It is. The car still runs and drives fine in vacuum and no to very low (2-3psi) boost conditions but I know from here on out it's only going to get worse and I don't want to risk having the clutch disk blow apart either. I recently did the clutch pedal bushing mod as described by Johnny in the transmission sub-forum and I wanted to make sure first that this wasn't an issue caused by that. The car was boosting fine for a couple weeks after the pedal fix but before the clutch slipping so I don't think it is but want to make sure that the pedal height adjustment on the threaded rod going into the clutch master cylinder wouldn't have an affect on this. As it is now, the adjustment is set so that the rod isn't pushed into the slave at all when the clutch is all the way up, so I wouldn't think it is the source of the problem. The system had been bled last fall by me and the fluid level is still right where it should be. The second part of this question is whether or not you can machine/resurface the stock flywheel. I've always heard that if you start to have a slipping clutch it glazes both the clutch disc and flywheel so you should always have the flywheel resurfaced when doing a clutch install in those circumstances. Does anyone know what the max amount of material you can remove from the flywheel is and still be functional? Just want to make sure when I drop it off at Sanel's that they don't take too much off. Lastly, I wanted to ask whether it was possible to access and replace the rear main seal while the engine and transmission were separated, or if it's something that would have to be reserved for a full engine rebuild. I might as well do it when I have it cracked open if I can access it at that point. Thanks, Matt Edited April 27, 2013 by polarisman14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbrad511 Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 First off, I have no experience with a slipping hydraulic clutch, but the mechanicals I've had slip have always been from an overpowered motor or a worn disc. It's also been my experience that you should resurface the PP when you change the clutch...IF you want the best interaction between the friction surfaces. Unless you're intentionally having it lightened they should be able to only remove enough material to remove the glaze and leave you fresh metal. People take multiple pounds of metal off of them when they lighten them, so shaving a few thousandths should be fine. And that shouldn't make any difference to the clutch adjustments, or at least not enough to cause any problems that you can't adjust out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_99 Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 (edited) If you have any play in your clutch pedal, then you are good for its adjustment not causing the issues. If as soon as you push the pedal at all, it disengages the clutch, then you have a problem there. You should be able to push the pedal in a little bit before it actually does anything to release the clutch. The stock flywheel can be resurfaced by any good auto shop, machine shop, and some auto parts stores. I took mine to a local auto parts store that had the equipment to do it. Call around in your area and see who does it. If they have the machine to do it, they will know how much they can remove when resurfacing. Its more about making sure the mating surface is true ,flat, and crack free. You will see the heat scoring on it when you remove your old clutch, and there will be very fine cracks in the surface metal. As long as those come out when the do it, you will be good to go. BC_99 edit, Iam wondering about you wanting to replace your rear main seal. Is it leaking? badly? this can cause clutch slip if is bad enough to get oil between the flywheel and clutch disc. It could also be the front seal around the input shaft in the transmission. I think you can replace the rear seal while you have the flywheel off, but dont recall if you have to drop the oil pan or not. I'd have a close look at both while you have the drivetrain that far apart. Edited April 27, 2013 by BC_99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarisman14 Posted April 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 That's a good point, you may have to drop the pan but it's just about time to drain the break-in oil anyway after swapping the rod and main bearings so that'd only be a handful of bolts away at that point. It isn't leaking to my knowledge (pulled the cover off the bellhousing and nothing came out, no evidence of leaks either) but I figure it's a smart thing to do with everything apart. The issue I was having when everything was worn before was that the clutch didn't disengage at all until your foot was on the floor, when I did the bushing repair, clevis replacement etc I set it up purposely so that you didn't have to push the pedal in for it to disengage--however, there's still enough residual play in the system that the plunger doesn't start to push into the master cylinder until the pedal has been depressed a half-inch or so. I'm purchasing a whole clutch kit when I buy it (not just the clutch disk) so it'll be clutch disk, pressure plate, pilot/throwout bearing, and alignment tool. Then with having the flywheel resurfaced it should help to ensure it's properly balanced and take a little weight off of it to boot. Is there anything else that I need to put in? Can you reuse the stock flywheel bolts or should I get some ARP bolts or something? The price is adding up quickly but at least it'll be done right at this point. Any further advice is much appreciated as I'm in uncharted territory with this stuff. I'll be dropping the trans pan, cleaning things, and putting fresh fluid in it as well. If there are any other bearing, seals, or anything else I can do while the trans is out without removing the gears or anything let me know, again, preventative maintenance. I'd like to get a trans strengthening pan as well but not sure if I'll be able to afford that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 in order to remove the engine oil pan you'll need to place a long bolt into one of the lower bellhouseing bolt holes and raise the engine back to normal or slightly higher position , on hindsight I can't recall what way the engine flops with trans out but any way it needs to be seting aprox where it does with engine in to remove the oil pan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarisman14 Posted April 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 Is it possible to just drop the oil pan first, before separating the engine and trans then? I think I know what you mean, when you separate the engine and trans the engine rotates so you can't get the pan off like you'd be able to normally, right? After doing some research it seems like the input shaft bearing is damn near impossible to remove without disassembling the entire transmission so I won't be doing that unless it's really bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 Get a 6 puck clutch with a strong PP. Maybe you did already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarisman14 Posted April 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 Yeah, planning on it. I read your posts about the ACT clutch that you had in your car and I'm getting the 6-puck that's one level below that, the one that can hold 565tq instead of 625. Your only complaint was the pedal feel being very stiff and this one is "moderate to stiff" instead of "stiff to very stiff" on their website. It should be a bit more comfortable to drive and still be able to hold 500wtq which is probably more than I need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarquestRescue Posted April 29, 2013 Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 I run the act street disk. Not sure if i have the max pressure plate or max extreme. So far it holds fine. I do not think you really need the puck disk. The rear seal and trans input seal are not that bad to do. I recommend a mitsu seal for the trans. I got a really crappy looking one from a parts store once. I threw it away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarisman14 Posted April 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) Yeah if I do get one of those I'll definitely go OEM for that. I know the RMS won't be too bad, just wondering if there's a bunch of extra stuff to do to get it off once the engine and trans are separated. I've never done one before. I've also never done a clutch, or separated an engine from a tranny before so I could really use some pointers. I know I can get most of this information from the FSM but if I can hear any tips or tricks from you guys that'd be very helpful. If you have a list of things that need to be moved or disconnected to drop the tranny out from underneath the car that'd be very helpful. I have access to a 2-post lift and I think I also have a trans jack I can use there. Thank you. In terms of not needing the 6-puck clutch, that's up for debate--I'll be running ~25psi on a decent sized turbo, projecting 400-425whp and similar torque to the wheels. I'll also be a little rough on it doing trackdays, autocross, drift events, and drag from time to time so I would rather spend a little more now and have more than I need. I had a 6-puck and 4-puck in my Focus before so I'm no stranger to how they drive. Do I need to buy new flywheel hardware or any other hardware or was that it? Just got a quote of $50 for the flywheel resurfacing so I'm happy with that, looking like I can get the flywheel resurfaced, clutch kit, trans strengthening pan and still have about $100 left for the rear main seal and other hardware. Edited April 29, 2013 by polarisman14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarisman14 Posted May 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t324/polarisman14/StarQuest/0430131822.jpg http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t324/polarisman14/StarQuest/0430131822a.jpg http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t324/polarisman14/StarQuest/0430131916.jpg http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t324/polarisman14/StarQuest/0430131916a.jpg http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t324/polarisman14/StarQuest/0430131916b.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted May 2, 2013 Report Share Posted May 2, 2013 disk and PP don't look all that bad realy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarisman14 Posted May 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2013 Yeah the disk doesn't look bad at all, the PP does have some hot spots on it as you can see but I'm gonna throw it up in the for sale forum with the full disclosure that it did start to slip at what I would think would be the 300whp/tq mark (20psi on a decent sized turbo) and see if I can get $100 for it. Getting my flywheel resurfaced today and I ordered the ACT clutch yesterday. Can someone please explain how to properly adjust the clutch pedal to me? The FSM covers it but is confusing. Basically I put my clutch pedal in, all the way up, and pulled the rod all the way out of the master cylinder until it hit the stop. I then threaded the bell assembly on to the rod just enough to where the clevis pin holes lined up, put the clevis pin through, and called it good. There is about an inch of pedal travel before the clutch begins to disengage and I want to make sure this is satisfactory since there's no more slop in the system. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted May 3, 2013 Report Share Posted May 3, 2013 with the petal up the slave rod needs to be fully extended,, this means touching the release arm ( auto adjust feature )the in car petal needs 7 inches of stroke ,,AFTER the petal moves the free travel of 1/2 "this easy to do if the rod is solid and not worn out , meaning pin hole not egg shaped and rubber cushion is not worn out ( no flex in rod when petal is depressed )if these conditions are met ,, the actual disk release happens aprox mid petal car should start to move 2 inches or so off full down ,,the conquest petal is longer then a normal clutch petal so 7 inches of travel is not hard to get Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarisman14 Posted May 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2013 Awesome. Good to know, as I just did the clevis pin repair and replaced the rubber cushion with washers there is 0 play in that whole system. I'll double check to verify that there is 1/2" of free play before the pedal movement starts to push the rod into the master cylinder but I think that's spot on right now. When you say the slave rod being fully extended you mean toward the rear of the car, correct? And the slave being the one bolted to the left side of the transmission. That's easy enough as the fluid is out of the system right now I'll have to refill and bleed it all. Last question for now, I have the new rear main seal with the "ohm symbol" shaped gasket, should I be using a thin coat of RTV or anything on either side of this gasket? It mentions using some gasket prepper of some sort and I think there is some of that at the shop I'm working in, wanted to see what your real world opinions of this was. Thanks again guys, should be good to go now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbrad511 Posted May 3, 2013 Report Share Posted May 3, 2013 Just my 2.6 cents, if it were me I'd put a little sealer around the outside of the seal, and then a little grease on the inside where it contacts the crank. Make sure you get the seal in the housing facing the correct direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarisman14 Posted May 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2013 Yeah there's a diagram in the FSM that I'm sure will be a little less confusing once I get the RMS housing off. If all else fails I'll put the new one in the way the old one was as it wasn't leaking, just preventative maintenance. Plus if I have to pull the tranny again I know how to do it and it'll be a piece of cake. The only thing that I didn't do that I really, really wish I did was make the mating marks on the prop shaft to torque tube flanges. As it's slightly rectangular it can only go on one of two ways but knowing my luck I'll put it on 180* off. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted May 4, 2013 Report Share Posted May 4, 2013 actualy there should never be any need for sealer or any thing like rtv,, but this is the real world not paper ,, so most times I always finger paint a thin film of rtv on gaskets or the metal surface they contact, it never hurts and helps a great deal in the off chance you have to take the cover back off also around the rear main seal or any metal clad seal i'd use a sealer , blk rtv or 3M yellow trim adhivsive , yellow 3m is esp good for metal clad seals , it holds gaskets in place super well but it's near imposible to get an even layer of application so a lot of the time i'l use one of the non sticking rtv's ,clear, light blue or drk blue ,etc ,blk will stick to paper gaskets but will workred don't hold up to oil as well as the other colors the only real trick to the rear main seal is to position the retainer properly , hole at the bottom ,it's job is to splash guard the seal and keep it in position , never install any seal that runs on metal dry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarisman14 Posted May 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2013 Gotcha. So once I get the new rubber RMS pressed into the casing then put some lube on the part that contacts the flywheel. Thank you guys again, any tips for getting everything lined up or anything else? Almost all the parts are here, planning on putting it in Friday or Saturday and driving the car all week next week to break it in before the car cruise on the 19th . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarisman14 Posted May 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2013 Also, the trans fluid is already out, is there any harm in standing the trans up on the trans-to-engine mating surface? I want to take the trans pan off and swap it for my tuff pan today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarisman14 Posted May 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2013 (edited) Here's some progress, new tuff pan installed: http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t324/polarisman14/StarQuest/0507131622.jpg I had a question. The clutch kit says that it comes with a "pilot bearing" and a "release bearing." In the FSM it states what the release bearing is but I'm having trouble finding the pilot bearing so I could use your guys' help to identify what it is and how to remove and replace it. If it's going to be the insert in the flywheel I'm going to be really pissed as I already torqued the fly back on. Such is life. I also need to know what viscosity oil to buy for the transmission fluid, I know I'm supposed to get API GL-4 but if anyone can specify a viscosity I'll know what to look for at the local VIP. Turns out that ducks are sometimes a pain to get in a row. Edited May 8, 2013 by polarisman14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted May 8, 2013 Report Share Posted May 8, 2013 not too much reading before starting this job huh the throw out bearing is what the pointie end of the trans goes into , after fiting thru the clutch disk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarisman14 Posted May 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2013 Crap, you mean the one pressed into the flywheel? If so it looks like that is coming back out :-\. At least it didn't take too long to put in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polarisman14 Posted May 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2013 And I could really use to know what viscosity to buy for the manual trans fluid as I'm buying it tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUSSIEOLDIE Posted May 8, 2013 Report Share Posted May 8, 2013 The bearing in the flywheel is called a spigot bearing and it supports the front of the gearbox imput shaft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts