Polcat87 Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Well I finally got my car back in running order. A little background...I bought it bone stock with a lot of leaks, and some other Mal-care issues. I have addressed all the Major issues and now have a great set up. 1G mass, 89 ECU, 16G TDO5 turbo, 2.5" turbo back exhaust, BSE kit with all new timing components. Well ever since I bought the car I had a missing issue at full throttle under stock conditions. Well I blew the stock turbo (on purpose) and upgraded to the 16G, and the problems were still there. I cleaned everything, replaced everything I could think of and finally installed a Fuel PSI regulator and after that everything was great! I know I am looking for 35PSI at idle, but is that at stock condition? With my upgrades should I be looking for more? Whats the magic number I should be looking for both stock and under boost, because I am still missing a little bit under 15psi at WOT....ANy other suggestions are greatly appreciated... Thanks in advance for the great help on here! Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLATBROKE313 Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) Do you have a widaband?How are you tuneing this? Edited February 8, 2011 by FLATBROKE313 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polcat87 Posted February 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 No, I just replaced the 1 wire O2 tonight.. I wold like one, but I'm not to sure on how all that works..just yet.. I'm a fast learner..lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Might be your spark plugs are the wrong type.http://www.b2600turbo.com/Spark%20Plugs.htm You tested the vac. adv. and it holds ? If that's just stock boost for that little turbo you're ok with a stock setup unless you're at high rpms and 18+psi for a long time as in 5-10seconds or longer. No reason to be in any gear at high boost for that long unless you want to have your license taken away because you'll be way past 100mph in 4/5th gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Did you address the Majorly leaky injectors? If they are stock, they leak. And that is where your miss comes from. Also, if you get something to tune with, like a MAFT, you can run about 10 more psi at base pressure. I have mine set for 45psi and it rises at 1:1 with boost, so add 29 lbs and it goes pretty high, lol. "free bigger injectors." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 reading base fuel pressure don't tell you what you realy need to know,, you HAVE to do it under load under boost on the road nothing on your mod list says any thing about the fuel delivery system,, still useing a 20 + yr old fuel pump ? oem pressure limits are 36-38 @ idle with engine off you can test pump dead head pressure ability , jumper the fuel pump with test lead to batt posi,, watch pressure gauge useing neddle nose plyers pinch shut the return line, thepressure should jump to 75-80 for a good oem pump, only do this for a few secs ,, any lower then that sugests the fuel pump is geting tire'd upgrade'd fuel pumps can build 125-150 lbs pressure so be carefull not to burst fuel hoses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polcat87 Posted February 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 As for the plugs, I just went and installed new plugs....but I just got what AutoZone’s computer told me to...I will change them to those NGK's..Now they come pre gaped @ .044...I thought the preferred gap was .032...Is that incorrect? I need to test the Vac advance..Not sure how, but I guess I’ll search and see. I don’t have a need to drive the car at max boost for that long...lol but I do notice when I am on it, the boost isn’t as steady. The boost flutters a little bit when boosting hard. My injectors do not leak, the TB did, but I replaced the gaskets and were good to go for leaks. So your saying its best to get a raising rate PSI regulator? Is that how your getting your 1:1 ratio? Do stock regulators do this normally? My fuel pump and filter were changed right before I bought the car. That was what I was told..It had the typical "wont run" issue (before I bought it)and he changed those two items, had the injectors cleaned. That’s what I was told anyway. Where is the easiest place to "jump" the Fuel pump under the hood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 As for the plugs, I just went and installed new plugs....but I just got what AutoZone’s computer told me to...I will change them to those NGK's..Now they come pre gaped @ .044...I thought the preferred gap was .032...Is that incorrect? I need to test the Vac advance..Not sure how, but I guess I’ll search and see. I don’t have a need to drive the car at max boost for that long...lol but I do notice when I am on it, the boost isn’t as steady. The boost flutters a little bit when boosting hard. My injectors do not leak, the TB did, but I replaced the gaskets and were good to go for leaks. So your saying its best to get a raising rate PSI regulator? Is that how your getting your 1:1 ratio? Do stock regulators do this normally? My fuel pump and filter were changed right before I bought the car. That was what I was told..It had the typical "wont run" issue (before I bought it)and he changed those two items, had the injectors cleaned. That’s what I was told anyway. Where is the easiest place to "jump" the Fuel pump under the hood? Like Shelby was referring to,you need to check your fuel pressure at full boost.Run a hose off your fuel pressure gauge fitting and tape your FPG to the windshield. Now, whatever your idle fp is, add your boost psi. to it at WOT. Example: 40 psi idle fp plus 10 psi boost= a 50 psi fp reading at WOT.Stock Fuel Pressure Regulators are a 1 to 1 ratio. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rabbit1 Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 1G mass, 89 ECU, 16G TDO5 turbo, 2.5" turbo back exhaust, BSE kit with all new timing components. I know I am looking for 35PSI at idle, but is that at stock condition? With my upgrades should I be looking for more? Whats the magic number I should be looking for both stock and under boost, because I am still missing a little bit under 15psi at WOT....ANy other suggestions are greatly appreciated... Thanks in advance for the great help on here! Joshyou didn't upgrade anything in the fuel system, let alone anything that would change your Fuel PSI and what is this about missing 15psi at WOT? as in fuel pressure? boost pressure? tire pressure? 15 PE-PSI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 you didn't upgrade anything in the fuel system, let alone anything that would change your Fuel PSI True. You cannot adjust your Fuel Pressure with a stock FPR.If you are on a budget you can buy a MSD-2222 Adjustable RRFPR that splices into the return fuel hose and that will enable you to adjust your Fuel Pressure. Summit Racing sells them. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 As for the plugs, I just went and installed new plugs....but I just got what AutoZone's computer told me to...I will change them to those NGK's..Now they come pre gaped @ .044...I thought the preferred gap was .032...Is that incorrect? This is a source of problems. The wrong plug may make the engine start and rev up but it won't do what's its supposed to. NGK is a brand name, they sell many different types and types that won't work too. If you have the correct plug you leave the gap alone for now. The plug you want to order is in that link I posted. Nobody will have those in stock. If Autozone won't order them, go to a NAPA store. I need to test the Vac advance..Not sure how, but I guess I'll search and see. I don't have a need to drive the car at max boost for that long...lol but I do notice when I am on it, the boost isn't as steady. The boost flutters a little bit when boosting hard. Take the cap/rotor off, use a short piece of hose and suck on it and watch the arm pull in. Pull it in as far as you can then cover the tip of the hose with your tongue and it must stay pulled in, if not its bad and must be replaced. Its not only a vac. adv. its to retard timing under boost. http://www.b2600turb...dvance_unit.htm The stock boost gauge isn't a mechanical gauge its a guess so don't pay much attention to it, its way off on the boost side. The ECU uses the MAF and RPMs and its only good for a stock setup anyway. My injectors do not leak, the TB did, but I replaced the gaskets and were good to go for leaks. So your saying its best to get a raising rate PSI regulator? Is that how your getting your 1:1 ratio? Do stock regulators do this normally? For that turbo you have until you get up past ~18psi boost you are fine so is whatever pump you have. Save your money for something else like gauges. Yes the stock regulator does this but only to a point then it can't raise pressure further. You will have a new set of problems with too much fuel pressure at low-mid rpms when boost is past stock levels after a regulator that can add in higher pressure and it misfires and fouls plugs from being too rich. Next step is to spend some more money and get something to modify the ECU to reduce the amount of fuel then at high/max rpms go the other way and add in more.My fuel pump and filter were changed right before I bought the car. That was what I was told..It had the typical "wont run" issue (before I bought it)and he changed those two items, had the injectors cleaned. That's what I was told anyway. Where is the easiest place to "jump" the Fuel pump under the hood? Pump test plug is a single plug over on the right fender apron it may still have its cap on the end with a white paint stripe smeared over it. Run a wire from that to the positive battery cable and the pump runs. They don't know what kind of pump you have until you tell them. http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/pumptestport1.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 You can clean a corroded injector all you want and it'll still leak. If they are stock I would start there. You can buy brand new replacement ones from fuel injector clinic. Bolt right in. You could also do a compression test to see if the jet valves are broken or hanging open. That would cause a miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polcat87 Posted February 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Ok...well I should have specified earlier that I installed an adjustable FPR....not a stock one..Sorry... That might clear up any confusion there... I also have installed a boost gauge in the factory location. I need to install my A/F gauge, but after doing some reading I'm not sure where to tap into..some say near the ECU, others dont...They are in the car, but wires just ran down to nowhere..lol I will check the PSI when I am under boost. So If I understand this correctly, if I set it at 40psi @ Idle, when I am WOT it will raise/or lower 10 psi or increase 10 psi to 50....Im still a little confused as to what I need to do after I check the Psi @ WOT. Do I need to change anything? What am I looking for specifically? I will definitely get the correct plugs as posted above. I know how important that is. So I should be good on my turbo/fuel set up up to 18 lbs of boost as long as all systems are working properly? What kind of ECU mod can I do to help with the fuel input? Money isn't always an issue if I know its going to be the correct way to fix it. Its a toy, not my daily driver. I do not mind spending money if I know its going to be the right money to spend. I have three other daily driving cars to use. I already have WAY more $$$ than my girlfriend would like in this car, but she thinks its cute still, so I'm still in cool water..lol A compression test would be a good idea. What am I looking for th cyl's to be? I know they should be within a range of each other, but whats a good number for these engines? If they are low, the Jet valve's are??? Thanks again for all the great input! Its amazing how much knowledge is on this site... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rabbit1 Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 what fpr did you use? is it a rising rate fpr? if not then that is your problem. an fpr for a N/A car will not raise the pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 the need for an after market FPR is way down the road , sounds like you have a far bit to go before you need'd to install one untill your at the tuneing point you have need for one, the oem fuel pressure reg will do a fine job for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polcat87 Posted February 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 I dont belive it is a rising rate..My friend actually left it at my house...so I tried it...it ran better...lol It looks like an ebay special, blue, has a nice gauge on it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 no vac hose to it ?? to adj for boost it has to see boost pressure ,and you do not want to use a port that has idle vacuum to it ,you want boost only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rabbit1 Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) no rising rate = lack of extra fuel pressure at boost levels = crappy car. Edited February 10, 2011 by The Rabbit1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polcat87 Posted February 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) The more I look at them on line, the more mine looks like the ones for sale...Is there a visual difference between a rising rate and a non? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=180483423348 looks identical.... Edited February 10, 2011 by Polcat87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boosted77. Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Yes, the rising rate will have an adjustment nut on top of the regulator and a vacuum hose coming off of it for boost compensating purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rabbit1 Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 but an N/A often has a vacuum line connection, so they look the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 It could be a rising rate one and you not know it, it could also be one that lowers pressure under vacuum and you sure don't want one of those. Its base pressure + boost pressure = 1:1 rising rate. Start at 38psi, boost 18psi end up with 56psi fuel pressure. You use the same reference hose location you did with the stock regulator and just don't hook a hose to it any longer. You can even saw it off and put a plug in there and let the return line come out the other end or where the regulator was. Problems are with that like I said, the ECU can't do anything with 56psi fuel so you are very rich until high rpms. SAFC/MAFT something like that is needed and since you are using this regulator now you'll be wanting it like yesterday or just put hose back on and just use the stock one. You'll see though, you can rev up through all the gears and it be fine but if you mash the gas and hit full boost before 5500rpms like at 3000 -the car will just puke rich and nearly die or it might if it can't pull through it. Those spark plugs in that like I sent will get you through that much easier since they are harder to foul. http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180483423348&viewitem= That picture link didn't work but this one will its the same item # just you can't post ebay pictures in here it won't allow the link. They are only good for a short time and go away so for future use in this thread they would be worthless. Use a liquid filled gauge the ones that aren't jump around like mad but keep this in mind, any gauge with liquid in it that is exposed to engine bay heat will read very WRONG after its hot. The liquid expanding is working against the bourdon tube that is how the gauge works. You can google that, liquid fill gauge and engine bay heat or something, they are good to set with the test port while cold or when you start them up but don't pay attention to one after you have been driving around because it will scare you and you'll adjust the pressure again and it will be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polcat87 Posted February 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 I just bought a MAFT. It should be here next week. I guess I will need a wide band to get the proper reading as well. I have a narrow band now (not hooked up). I wanted to get a fuel PSI gauge to monitor the PSI in the car. I have heard about the liquid gauge and their inconsistency. I am at the point where I want to make sure this car is good to go. Last time I checked the A/F, I was super rich. The mechanic said I was off the charts with how rich it was under boost..said something like I was under 10...something.. His digital gauge didn’t read that far down or something. I guess I with the MAFT I will be able to have a little more control in the A/F department. How do I need to set the regulator? at Idle, or under Boost? That’s where I’m confused. Obviously I need to set it at idle first, then after I look to see where I’m at under boost, now how do I adjust it from there? I guess I’m just not catching on..It’s not like me, but.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 It seems like you have a simple rising rate FPR, which means the set screw thingy only adjusts the idle fuel pressure, and whatever you set it at, it will add one psi for ever psi you add with the turbo. There are adjustable rising rate versions that can do things like rise 2:1 or 3:1, but those are for superchargers that only make 5psi. Also, you can keep your narrow band O2 sensor, but I'd recommend getting the car tuned on a dyno with a wideband readout. The tuner should be able to get you reasonably close to the ballpark for fuel, and then everything will work fine. If you want to spend a bit more money, you can get a wideband and do it yourself. Some wideband companies included a scaled narrow band output for silly old ecu's like ours to read. When you install both the MAFT and wideband + scaled output to the ecu, it will run better than it ever did before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Make it idle run and drive with no more than stock boost of about 12psi and get it running good before you attempt to put that MAFT on. You should still be able to max out your rpms with that low stock level boost and have NO MISFIRES. If not, all that will just be harder to find after that MAFT is on there. It still has to idle and not having a heated 02 causes problems depending on which of the MAFTs you got aren't there like three different versions now? If you don't have a heated 02 yet get one, a generic on ebay is very inexpensive. It will cause the ECU to start looking at the air fuel soon as its heated up regardless of what the CTS says since on this ECU its the 02 not the CTS that throws it into closed loop like most others do and this way your settings for the MAFT can be adj. for the idle portion easier. When the car is modded more and more the base maps of the ECU don't work out so well with basic MAFT versions and their idle adjustments and the colder it gets outside the worse it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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