Need help guys, DD is down AGAIN

[Robert_n_family]

Past few weeks car's been acting slightly funny. Would run perfect, but when you shut it off, for some reason, it wouldnt want to restart. That happened 4 times the past 3 weeks.

All of the times though, if you waited about 30 mins or so it would restart.

 

Now, after grocery shopping (yes, its a true DD), she wouldn't start. After getting her towed home, I looked around. I found a fusable link up front that was nasty looking, so I replaced it. The whole fusable link area looks old and worn, so I ordered a new one from the dealer. It'll b here 2morro. But anyways I dont think that's the problem.

 

 

I pulled a plug wire off #4 and threw a new plug on it, and tested for spark. I have good spark. I pulled the OVCP off and had my lady try to start her, and I saw no fuel coming from the injectors. OK, so now I know why its not starting, but why no fuel. And why would this be an intermittent problem before now?

 

Injector clips are almost new. 5 months ago she got a new tank filter, conical filter removed, Walbro 255 installed, new fuel filter, and TB completely rebuilt minus shaft seals.

 

So she turns over just fine and has good spark, just no fuel.

 

All fuses are good. Grounds appear to be good from what I've checked. Why wouldnt my injectors fire? Need major help....rental car is expensive. Cuts alot out of our already limited budjet...help anyone?

 

Edit : Thought perhaps it was the ECU, so I swapped it with an 89 ECU that I had, nothing still.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Robert_n_family

[quikconq]

have you changed the ignitor/knock box????

[Robert_n_family]

have you changed the ignitor/knock box????

 

 

No, but does that control fuel? I thought that just did spark. I have that small black plastic one that I hear gives everyone fits, but I was under the impression that just controls spark. Am I wrong?..does it tell the injectors to fire too?

[quikconq]

hmmm yea i think it does have to do with spark.....

do you have fuel pressure???i know you said you have a new feul pump

but is it coming on???

[Starfighterpilot]

I would hook a jumper line from the batteries positive pole to the fuel pump check (test) connector by the air filter cannister. This bypasses the entire ECI circuit and sends juice to the fuel pump. Can you hear the fuel pump running? Remove the OVCP tube from the TB and try starting your lady now. Do you have gas spraying into the TB as the engine is rotating?

 

If the fuel pump is not running when it's "hot wired," at the test connector, then you either have a bad ground back by the fuel pump, one of the four electrical connectors between the ECI relay electrical connector and the fuel pump motor is loose (or corroded) or the fuel pump motor is shot.

 

If the fuel pump motor runs when it's "hot wired," then I would check the ECI Relay or replace it with a spare and see if she runs.

 

Good luck.

 

For What It's Worth

 

KEN

[Technology]

Something is broken. Fuel injectors probably. It just sounds flooded. You should run it, then shut it off and get the problem to happen, then hold it at WOT and try starting it then.

[BrazilBoy]

Rust in the tank could have clogged the new filter some...

[89Steve]

Ok so youve narrowed down that no fuel is your problem. To find the solution start from the back and work your way forward.

I'd start w/ the fuel pump. Can you hear it run when you hook up the jumper wire? If yes make sure fuel is actually getting to the tb. squeeze the fuel supply hose before and after you jump the pump. You should feel a noticable difference. The failproof way to test this (mostly failproof anyway) is to hook up a FP gauge. I made mine up for less then 10 bucks. Make sure its at 40PSI. If you have good fuel pressure and delivery, your injectors arent firing. Thats either electric, or the injectors themselves.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say fuel probably isnt even getting there in the first place. Good luck figuring it out man.

[Technology]

I don't know where 89Steve is getting his info, but stock base fuel pressure is 36 psi, and it will run on even 10 psi. Don't buy anything to test it. You can do it all for free.

 

Jump the test wire for the pump like all these jabronies said, but just unhook the fuel feed line at the TB and aim it at your eyes. Then if you get gasoline in your eyes, the pump is working, you can stop worrying about it.

 

 

If the injectors are stock, I would very strongly believe they are bad. Do like I said, crank the engine with everything hooked up but at WOT. Clear the cylinders out.

 

 

If you still can't get it started after verifying fuel is there, your spark timing is off, and that's not the case is it? If you can jumper the pump and see it's pumping, but it won't run on its own, unplug your mass air sensor. Maybe it's broken.

[Robert_n_family]

OK, I disconnected the fuel going to the tbi, but instead of pointing it at my eyes, I put the hose into a jar. Turned over the motor and nothing went in the jar. OK. Pumps not coming on. Looked for that jumper. Dont really know what I'm looking for. Anyone got a pic? If it doesnt say FUEL PUMP TEST JUMPER LEAD I probably won't find it. What would cause my new pump to intermittenly turn on/off?

[Technology]

It's right over by the mass air sensor. It's a single wire with a capped plug, coming out of the main harness over there.

 

Open the little access panel in your trunk and look for loose wires if you can see any. If not, hit the pump with a hammer any way you can. don't break anything though. If it runs after hitting it, you might want to think about replacing it. Isn't there a fuel pump fusible link? And did you check the ones behind the cover next to the battery? there's more buried under there.

 

Check fuses, and check the fuse contacts for corrosion. Have your lady turn the key to the on position and stick your head as far up into the passenger foot well as you can, near the ecu. listen for a click. That would be the main relay. If there's no clicking to power the pump, that could be going bad. Just keep checking things.

[quikconq]

bad ground

you can either use the jumper wire,,its near the cruise control module,,on pass fender well

just run a hotwire to that plug,,the plug is black the wire is black with white stripe,,,

 

or hook up a hot wire right at the feul pump

 

very first thing i would do is

well connect the feul line back up or make sure its in the jar....

remove the fuel pump cover to gain access to the pump,and wiring

turn the key to the on position,,then wggle the wires and see wat happens

if nothin happens,run a small wire for a new ground,,just make sure your getting a ground

then also make sure your getting power to the wiring when the key is on

 

yea tapping on the pump somtimes helps,,but if the pumps new,,it shouldnt need any tapping

 

keep us posted

Edited February 9, 2010 by quikconq

[Robert_n_family]

OK the pump didnt turn on when trying to start the car.

 

I did find that jumper lead, and ran a hot wire from the positive battery to that jumper, instantly it turned on, fuel pumped...so fuel pump is OK. I figured it was since its almost brand new..but you never know right?

 

Sooo...something electrical between the front bumper and the fuel pump...lol

 

I'm rechecking all fuses and fusable links right now...b back in a few mins.

 

Thanks guys for all the help...we're getting there!

[Robert_n_family]

Fuses/Fusable links all appear good. Inside the black box there was only 3 fusable links for PW, defogger, and something else I forgot, but not motor running related.

 

All fusable links on the outside seem ok, but who knows. When I install the new fusable link box/wires I'm getting thursday I'll feel alot better about that.

 

Sooooooooooo get this...

 

I jumped the fuel pump...left it jumped and tried starting the car..it didn't want to start at first the first 3-4 times I tried. It would start to start, then die off. So I gave it some gas while I started it...vroom it started but ran kinda rough for like 3-4 seconds.

 

After 3-4 seconds of running rough....mmmmmmmmmmmm.....silky smooth like always.

 

So I went and removed the jumper. She kept running smooth. I turned her off. She started right back up. What gives? I know it's not fixed even though its running....any ideas?

[Starfighterpilot]

I'd say it was dirty injector(s).

 

However, what did the inside of the gas tank sump look like when you changed the strainers?

 

Was it rusty? If so rust may be clogging the gas pick up strainer down in the sump.

 

For What It's Worth

 

KEN

[Robert_n_family]

Nah, actually Lives4Speed, aka Eric, told me my tank looked like one of the best he'd ever seen. There was virtually nothing on the inside other than shiny goodness. Even the sock looked clean clean clean. Now that it started and is starting again, I dont know where to look for the problem...ugh.

 

Intermittent problems suck.

 

And it couldn't have been the injectors. The pump wasn't coming on with the key until I jumped it off the 1st time. So, what I need to find out, is what would cause it to come on now after being hotwired once to start it..

Edited February 9, 2010 by Robert_n_family

[jiminEcricket]

my 87 quest is doing exactly the same thing. It drove perfect-cut it off, then crank with no start. I also have a good spark. once the car is cold, it starts right up. if I let it idle to warm up to operating temp. then shut it off. it does the same thing again. I havent had time to look at it so i parked it as it is not my DD. I suspect a possible eci/fuel pump relay may be going bad. when I saw your post I thought "HEY this may be easier to figure out than I thought" but I should have have known. what is easy on a quest

[quikconq]

its hard to diagnose when its running right....so when its not running right, is when to do the tests

you may have jiggled the right wire

so youll have to wait till it does it again,,or do preventative maintenance

 

such as clean all fuel electrical connections make sure you have good grounds

that type of stuff,,clean the conical filter ,clean the tank if dirty?

Edited February 9, 2010 by quikconq

[Robert_n_family]

OK getting P'd.

 

My car is in the Target parking lot atm.

 

After I jumped the fuel pump and she started, I turned it off and restarted it twice to make sure it would.

 

Drove it to pick up my girl from work, left it running while I waited for her, then drove to target. Total running time approx 30 minutes. Never skipped a beat. Went inside for literally 5 minutes or less, just to get a prescription and now it wont start.

 

Also, now the hotwire lead won't make the fuel pump come on either anymore.

I'm waiting a little to let it cool down and see what happens. We're gonna go back later.

 

As far as preventative maintainance...Pennick000(previous owner) was crazy clean with making sure everything was good. He took great care of this car.

 

Soooo...any more ideas folks? Now my cars stranded away from home even. And I can't afford a tow. Seriously, this stinks.

[jiminEcricket]

my car only had to do this to me once (at a walgreens lot) I too called the tow truck, but it was late on the weekend. guy said it would be about midnight before he could get it. after about an hour -enough time to cool off, my wife and I went back to give a try just for sake of saving a tow bill. it started right up...... I flew home as fast i could and have not driven it since... BUT I can duplicate the no start problem. when you get the car home try letting it idle long enough to fully warm up and let the cooling fans kick on/off a few times to be sure its good and hot. then shut it down. mine tries to start at first with slight coughing/spitting on the first or 2nd attempt to start it . after that it just cranks (until I let it cool off again). this may not solve the problem but if you can duplicate it at home it makes it a lot easier to diagnose

[Robert_n_family]

OK...new/clarified symptoms..

 

Went back to Target after a few hours and she started right up, no problems. Drove her straight home, about 9 miles. I let her idle in the driveway till normal temp, turned it off. Went inside for a minute to get my coat, came back out, tried to start again, and just like before...no start.

 

So when its cold, starts and runs fine. Continues to run fine until you turn it off. Once you turn it off, you're not gonna start it again until it cools back off. Even the hotwire won't start the fuel pump when she's hot.

 

I had this EXACT same problem on a Beretta I used to own a longggg time ago. It ended up being a bad pump. Even though I installed a new pump the end of last summer..I'm thinking this one is bad. Any other people out there leaning towards the pump too?

If not..what else could it be?

 

The pump, btw, is a Walbro 255...the real Walbro 255 and not the knock off ones...I got from a member here. New in box. Is it common for these to fail, or is it just my luck that its happening to me?..

 

At least she's home now..

Edited February 10, 2010 by Robert_n_family

[89Steve]

my car only had to do this to me once (at a walgreens lot) I too called the tow truck, but it was late on the weekend. guy said it would be about midnight before he could get it. after about an hour -enough time to cool off, my wife and I went back to give a try just for sake of saving a tow bill. it started right up...... I flew home as fast i could and have not driven it since... BUT I can duplicate the no start problem. when you get the car home try letting it idle long enough to fully warm up and let the cooling fans kick on/off a few times to be sure its good and hot. then shut it down. mine tries to start at first with slight coughing/spitting on the first or 2nd attempt to start it . after that it just cranks (until I let it cool off again). this may not solve the problem but if you can duplicate it at home it makes it a lot easier to diagnose

 

Mine does the same. Try giving it a little bit of gas as you start it. When mine's warm it will only crank until I give it a tiny bit of gas, then it starts right up. i THINK its a bad ISC.

 

Reply to Technology: I dunno if your trying to joke around or what but you sound like a real douche when you post...its 4lbs, I rounded up, can I live?

[BADBAJA]

sounds like a pump to me as well. can you try tapping on the tank when its warmed up right above the pump to maybe knock it loose? sorry I havent made it back that far on my ressurection yet to see what is accessible. Just did a bimmer pump a couple weeks ago and the kid carried around a rubber mallet with the rear seat taken out just to get his started. Just because anything is new anymore dosent mean its worth a turd, just ask toyota, LOL good luck

[vbrad511]

If you're absolutely convinced that the pump isn't running, get the links cleaned now. Even though you've got new ones on the way. The blocks they plug into also plug into the harness below. Make sure to disconnect them from the harness and clean all the contacts there too. It sounds very much like a stuck injector flooding the motor after you shut it off. Give it a while for the flooding to dry out and it fires again. Shut it off for a moment, fires again. Shut it off for 5 minutes, injectors leak down into the intake, flooded again.

[penick000]

The fuel pump will only operate when you are either cranking the ignition (in the START not RUN position) or when the car is actually running.

 

Perhaps consider the fuel pump / ECU relay as being faulty. Especially since you mentioned you got the ECU wet earlier this year.

 

Additionally, that ignitor is no spring chicken. I'd consider updating it to an 88/89 version (gold box and bigger versus your black plastic one) as well. If it's not giving you fits now, it's just a matter of time. the 88/89's are proven tougher.

 

Good luck

 

pen

Edited February 10, 2010 by penick000