What controls 2nd inj and fuel pump?

[Kane]

HI , Ive been having a problem with my secondary injector not spraying, I have innovate wideband. I know for sure that it doesnt turn on because air fuels lean out around 3k and my starion wont boost at all. I can daily drive it around but im only running on my pri injector and 0 boost. These are new Trilogy injectors. I have switched them and the 950cc works fine as a primary. I have 12.6 volts to the primary inj.

**** I do remember a while back my fuel pump wouldnt turn on so i took it out and hard wired it on a switch and the pump was fine and it started i havent tried to boost it till recently and then my 2nd injector wasnt spraying*** So what i need to know is if a soleniod or some switch or module controls the fuel pump and injector. I am missing 1 of the vac soleniods on the tb. the one that sits to the outside.

 

I have good Fuel Pressure, Good Filter, Good Pump.

I did eliminate the abs, a/c, cruise control, my climate control, Radio.

 

What Controls the fuel pump and secondary injectors?

Boost solenoid?

 

Please Help, Anxious to be able to use my fully built motor! Thank you in advance

[garychoffmann]

clean your injector connections, replace clips will help. test your injector with a noid light. ecu controls secondary injector

[Shelby]

make sure your TPS is sending a good clean signal to the ecu , do this by doing a sweep test at the tps and at the ecu connector for the tps signal , it does no good to have a working tps if the signal does not make it to the ecu

[Kane]

clean your injector connections, replace clips will help. test your injector with a noid light. ecu controls secondary injector

 

Thanks guys

I have new clips and tps also, i will check at ecu, any1 have pinout locations?

[mikec]

The secondary injector on 87-later cars is controlled by the ECU; just like the primary. It's based on the same signals that drive the primary as well - there are no external solenoids, switches, etc. that make the secondary "kick in." what happens if you mash the throttle from idle, tranny in neutral? Will the engine rev up cleanly - or does it stumble badly? If it revs cleanly, the secondary IS WORKING. Don't believe me? Disconnect the electrical connector and try the mash-the-gas test again...

 

Power to the injectors goes from the battery, through the ECI fusible link, through one side of the dual-sided ECI relay, through a ballast resistor, and finally to the injectors. The ECU then completes the ground to fire an injector. That half of the ECI relay is "picked" ON whenever the ignition key is ON or in START. The other side of the ECI relay controls the fuel pump, it's picked ON with the ignition key in START, then the ECU holds it ON as long as the ECU "sees" pulses from the ignition module.

 

The secondary injector is used for any "high volume" fuel needs - including around-town driving at mid to high RPMs without boost. Just because a car won't run at 0psi or higher boost doesn't point to the secondary injector... it can be many things. If the car passes the mash-the-gas test, the secondary is basically good enough. The bug is in the air pipes (leaks somewhere), fuel starvation (crappy pump, blocked pick-up screen, blocked cone filter, collapsed fuel pipes & hoses, etc. Those solenoids on the front of the throttle body are for emissions parts, not fuel control.

 

Earlier model year cars have a firewall mounted boost pressure sensor (near the brake booster); if that is bad they don't run well under boost. Such cars also do NOT have the "primary" and "secondary" injector setup; they run two identically sized injectors that flow more than an 87-later primary but less than an 87-later secondary. (about 850cc compared to 580 and 980)

 

mike c.

[Indiana]

I have switched them and the 950cc works fine as a primary.

You can't do this and expect it to work the same way. The primary fuel map is one thing and the secondary fuel map is something else. When you push the gas pedal quickly or the rpms get higher like past 3000 to 3500 or these is boost then that secondary will be activated. You have the larger injector in place of a primary ok does this motor use a stock cam? A stock cam unless degreed wrong can not use the volume of fuel dispensed from an injector that large without modifying the ECU meaning a translator of some sort. A WOT the ECU uses set maps and pulse rates and expects the injectors to be sized as they were. Some where along the way the maps change, the 02 is involved but not at WOT. If you did get a smaller injector it should be connected as the primary.

 

Another problem may be in the wiring to the fuel pump that you changed. What was the gauge of the wire you ran back to the pump? Where did you get the voltage from for this? Its possible that the injectors are working and must be reversed to run at all then you lean out at higher rpms if the wire gauge is TOO small for the pump and under demand the pump turns slower because that wire can't carry that many amps. This is why you see pump "rewire" kits and all you get are some wire nuts and a spool of wire you can buy just about anywhere its nothing special. The connectors you used, how good those were attached, how clean they are is all part of how stable the pump output is, or can be or can't be.

 

and ya maybe its just dirty injector clips too. How you attach them you need to go back far enough in the harness to find clean wire to attach them too, most times the wire in the harness is corroded back 6 or 8 inches until its clean. A bad connection to dirty wiring in the harness isn't any better at all just because the ends are new.

[Kane]

I know when and how the secondary functions im not that stupid,

ok i was testing the secondary injector in the primaries place so that i know it's not a bad injector. Of course it ran richer~ it's a 950cc duh

NO it is not a stock cam, it's a 284h schneider with 1.6 roller tip rockers, oversize valves, hd springs, ported head, bronz valve guide liners, hyd rocker shafts, the head case is a non jet caravan

The fuel pump wire is from 14 gauge directly from the battery, the same wire used in my buddies fuel alterded dragster.

Like i said before i have new injector clips and i soldered them in where i saw no dirty crap in the insolation of the old wire.

 

Thanks but mikec answered my question perfectly. Thank you all for your support.

 

[Shelby]

let us know how that 284 does with those mismatch'd rockers , you gain'd a lot of lift but man did you mess up the valve open and close timeing , you will also have problem with valve stem mashing,, the closeing ramp is way to steep for those roller rockers

but you might get lucky

[Kane]

let us know how that 284 does with those mismatch'd rockers , you gain'd a lot of lift but man did you mess up the valve open and close timeing , you will also have problem with valve stem mashing,, the closeing ramp is way to steep for those roller rockers

but you might get lucky

 

Thats what i was wondering when i sent the cam in to get it ground up, he wrote down all my motor specs i have 92mm arais 8.0:1 pistons(those pistons dont even reach the deck at top stroke), rocker ratio also hopefully he ground it per specs. the cam card said .. well s*** im gonna try to find it. But ive been driving it around 30 or so miles and no metal or it hasnt mashed a stem seal yet. i ordered the short oem ones, there are other ones your supposed to buy with high lift cams but i forgot untill, ya it was too late and here we go. i always wonder if this cam is the problem. ill have to put my vids up and pics so that people can see this a little better. maybe some1 can spot a obvious flaw, something i keep overlooking. lol

[Indiana]

Thats what i was wondering when i sent the cam in to get it ground up, he wrote down all my motor specs i have 92mm arais 8.0:1 pistons(those pistons dont even reach the deck at top stroke), rocker ratio also hopefully he ground it per specs. the cam card said .. well s*** im gonna try to find it. But ive been driving it around 30 or so miles and no metal or it hasnt mashed a stem seal yet. i ordered the short oem ones, there are other ones your supposed to buy with high lift cams but i forgot untill, ya it was too late and here we go. i always wonder if this cam is the problem. ill have to put my vids up and pics so that people can see this a little better. maybe some1 can spot a obvious flaw, something i keep overlooking. lol

So I take it now your car is fixed? You asked what made the secondary injector activate but you didn't get an answer did you? Was it a tach signal? How about a MAS signal? There is no pressure sensor so how does that ECU know what to do and when? This is the answer you asked for and didn't get so was the answer that you have a mashed fuel line or a clogged filter? Your secondary injector not working is NOT why you are not making boost. You said you had OS valves then you said they were the shorter OEM ones so which is it? You said 8:1 pistons but said they don't come up to the top does that mean you also are aware that to get advertised 8:1CR they MUST get to the top meaning zero clearance and that OS pistons alone reduce CR not to mention that if they don't get to the top its even worse? Like maybe you just ended up with no better than stock CR and for what? A piston that isn't coming to the top so the quench pad around the outside is useless? The difference between a flat top and a dished piston being used for forced induction in this motor is that piston shape helping to prevent detonation that blows head gaskets not the increased CR. That means its WORSE than a stock piston right there did you realize this? That 284H cam will not work with those ROLLER rockers. Its not their ratio that is the problem. How did you "Setup" that cam by the centerline or not at all? I'm going to guess you didn't degree it but if you had, did you also double check and see where the opening and closing degrees were and that your cam is now fubar from those rocker arms? Maybe the boost problem is the wastegate actuator isn't letting the flap fully close and has some preload on it. I've ran that exact same cam with those roller rockers over 5 years ago and it SUCKED it can not be made to work properly you must use a roller grind cam with roller rockers you can't mix match them. The increased ratio of the rocker arm is likely how you can get by with short valves at all since the base lobe of the cam was cut down. Now for the rest of the story or shall i say the "obvious flaw" as you put it -its that cam and those rocker arms both. They regrind cams and when they do they cut down the base and use that extra metal to reposition the cam lobes so they can get back the shape, or the opening and closing ramps just as they were so in the end that base being lowered allows them to change the duration and also the lift and now comes the part they don't tell you....that cam MUST be degreed to work. That dowel pin hole that is the same one that was in the cam when it was stock is now so far off that cam can't begin to do what its supposed to AND you compounded the problem with those roller rockers. If the head or deck was milled ANY this has added to the degrees the cam is off. How about a regrind cam being off 34 degrees because that's how off the last one I did was. In other words your motor is a mess from all that and the power band it has or lack of it is from this cam. Best thing you could do now is to get a STOCK cam and put back the stock rocker arms and then get the car to make boost and at that point start changing things. That's the way I see it. It would have been easier to give a better answer had all the details be told in the beginning. Then again I could be wrong and like I said at the top of this was that Mike solved your problem already.

 

 

 

[Kane]

WOW i was so mesmerized by your knowledge, im so flattered! (flutters eyes), how bout u do this topic a favor an stop.

Like i stated before "Thanks but mikec answered my question perfectly"

 

Topic ENDED

[Shelby]

Mike may have answer'd your question but you answer'd none of ours ,, sorry but your question has nothing to do with the mess'd up cam and valve timeing,but do as you will ,,none of us have ever been there before

more then a dozen times any way