About intakes...

[CHC]

Well I currently jst bought a conquest (89) and a 87. Both are TBI, and I was interested in making the '89 into a MPI system.

 

I have a few questions...

 

I got some good info with MegaSquirt(is that really a good system to use or what?)

 

I started looking at the MPI intakes, and said whoa, 400-500+ bucks for a intake!?!?

I have a welder at home and could make one for cheaper!, and if it is not up to the task I will but a larger one(welder) for around 400 today even ;D...

 

Anyway, searching through the mega squirt page I found many a good article, and a few I am going to put to praticle use.

I am looking at building 2 things off the batt, An Intake, and a turbo manifold.

I have built limited headers for several cars, but these will be somewhat harder, and alot heavier then I am used to dealing with.

I was looking at using Sch 40 piping and I already have several sources for flanges, and collectors for decent prices. So I may spend around $75 making the turbo header.

I have already contacted 3 companies on Ebay inquiring about 1/4" aluminum plating to use to make an intake manifold that will have venturi  type runners, and have a pretty blank T/B mounting to allow the use of many different T/B's.

 

Now, here is another question, I have 10 good 19LbHr injectors in my garage. How do I convert that to LPH? (To keep all the measurements the same)

But considering I have 10 of these injectors, if 4 cannot support the propper A/F ratio, could I piggy back another Megasquirt computer to run another set of injectors? Or would there be a way to set the Megasquirt to run the additional injectors at higher boost levels?(IE running a PSI switch that would open an additional circiut in the Mega setup and provide "Load Share" type of fuel injection to compensate for the PSI?)

 

I am askng this, as I have not really looked through the megasquirt setups and am not sure if it's possible or not.

 

I will be looking at having the intake/exhaust/TPI-MPI setup done "HOPEFULLY" in 6 wks-2 months. I have pulled the head off the 'quest and am planning on a heavy porting on both ends, along with a heathly cam and rebuild.

I will post pics when both are done, and see if any may be interested in buying a couple from me as I make them. Looking at the future here, BUT, the intake/exhaust will not be as high as others are selling theirs. THAT is the reason why I am looking into making my own parts(I cannot afford them!). I will not speculate about prices now, as I have no real hard numbers to deal with at this time. But IF this prioject IS successful, I will say many people will be happy- including myself! ;D

[shift1313]

its like your reading my mind:)   im currently building a megasquirt ecu but my car has a cracked head which got priority.  I think megasquirt is great and only people who havent used it have had something bad to say about it.  As far as the intake.  if you just want a simple deal buy some exhaust piping and follow SDS's how to make an intake manifold.  real cheap and if you have even a portamig sitting around you could probobly build it.  they also have a how to exhaust manifold section.  sched 40 weld el's are the way to go.  take a look at shawn silvas manifold he made.  im going to try that or something similar probobly.  he spent a good bit of time designing it to work in the stock location and still have good functionality.  

megasquirt only has two injector drivers so you can run as many injectors as you want.  It will do 8 no problem.  i would just say run ping pong mode with them firing 4 at a time but you could fire all 8 at once.  taurus sho TBs can be bored to 75mm and are easily found on ebay.     here is the sds site

http://www.sdsefi.com/tech.html

 

im planning on my intake manifold and exhaust manifold not to run me over $200 all together, not including the ms. just parts.  if you want to talk more(ive been researching for awhile) you can shoot me a PM or IM shift1313.

[conquestpa]

Shift, or anyone... want to build me an intake too? I have 2 spare stock SQ intakes you can have...

 

Ill be getting the MS pretty soon...

 

 

I think the MS can handle 16 injectors possibly more.

[CHC]

Shift, or anyone... want to build me an intake too? I have 2 spare stock SQ intakes you can have...

 

Ill be getting the MS pretty soon...

 

 

I think the MS can handle 16 injectors possibly more.

 

I am looking at a multi-angular design that in itself has a venturi design in internal shape with "floating" venturi intake inlets.

Mine will be fully custom, and hopefully be able to flow substaintally more then a stocker, or even a "modified" stocker.

 

Right now, I am looking at going ahead and mounting 8 injectors and allowing the programming to compensate the pulses per pair/per cylinder.

[CHC]

hey shift, when I get the stuff ready in the next couple weeks, and I begin building, I will shoot you a couple pics.

 

If you like what you see let me know. You buy the supplies(aluminum plates) for me to make you one(I will know from starting mine) and I will fab yours beside mine for cost of welding/gas. Maybe 30 bucks, and send it to ya. to see how you like it.

 

I will not however cut/weld in the injector bosses cause I do not know what you plan on doing for that, so that you will want to have done yourself. Let me know what you think about it 'K.

[CHC]

well, got plating of ebay today, along with the tubing. Now on to the welder tomarrow, and then I get to warm up the drill presses(yes more then 1), and my band saw...

Now to just get more sanding drums for my dremel...

[emc]

the intake isnt near as complicated as the exhaust. ive read sds site as well as others im convinced i can make maniflods. to make the exhaust is more complicated to make it to fit into the stock location with out modding requires alot. i was going to try a log style but gave up and bought shawns. when i got his and installed it i could see the way to avoid certain obsticals. it is a work of art. schedule 40 is easy to get industrial plumbing. one thing to think about is heat absorption.the thicker schedule will desipate less heat over more time than thinner stainless.ford mustang tb are easy to get.youll burn that dremal up get a die grinder.

[CHC]

the intake isnt near as complicated as the exhaust. ive read sds site as well as others im convinced i can make maniflods. to make the exhaust is more complicated to make it to fit into the stock location with out modding requires alot. i was going to try a log style but gave up and bought shawns. when i got his and installed it i could see the way to avoid certain obsticals. it is a work of art. schedule 40 is easy to get industrial plumbing. one thing to think about is heat absorption.the thicker schedule will desipate less heat over more time than thinner stainless.ford mustang tb are easy to get.youll burn that dremal up get a die grinder.

I realize that Schd 40 will not disapate heat quickly, but it is also 1/4 thick for rezealance(Spl). So it should more then endure a years worth or more of use before i remake the manifold in S/S. Also, by keeping the exhaust gasses hotter, the turbo will be more effiecent(Spl). As the hotter the gasses that travel through, the more pressure is built up in the exhaust section. Now, I am not saying that by keeping your EGT at 2000* will yield more power, but S/S may only keep in the 1200 range(DO NOT QUOTE I AM NOT CERTAIN!) but typically you would like the highest AND safest temp you can run.

That's another reason I am doing in the '40 first, I can get the layout done quickly, and very presise. I can then take that design and have the S/S tubing bent in single tubes to match the '40 runners.

I have also came up with a design for the intake that I am going to go with. it does have 7" runners, and will use a Camaro 350 TPI throttle body that has twin 52 MM blades.

[propeine]

CHC, do you happen to have any drawings/ cad files of your intake?  Matt and I have been talking for quite a while and doing a lot of research on intake and exhaust setup and I'd like to see your ideas.  No worries about me buildin them or anything I've got my own plans.  Also what kinda power band are you shooting for on your intake as 7" runners are awefully short and our cars don't rev that high to start with.  Shoot me a PM if you dont want to disclose info publicly.  Let me know.

 

Tom

[propeine]

Also about your injectors

cc/min = 10.5 * lb/hr

now if there are 1000 cc in one liter then you take that factor, divide by 1000 and multiply by 60 to get back into hours

 

therefore

 

19 * 10.5 / 1000 * 60 =  11.972 L/Hr

 

I'm not sure what your reasoning for wanting it in this factor is but this should be the correct math.

 

19lb/hr is gonna be pretty darn small for any big HP application or even for any application considering our secondary injector is 1100 CC and the primary is what 700? Thats 1800 total which is 108L/Hr.  Anyways here is one site which has conversions for you.

 

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/fuelinjectors.htm

[CHC]

Also about your injectors

cc/min = 10.5 * lb/hr

now if there are 1000 cc in one liter then you take that factor, divide by 1000 and multiply by 60 to get back into hours

 

therefore

 

19 * 10.5 / 1000 * 60 =  11.972 L/Hr

 

I'm not sure what your reasoning for wanting it in this factor is but this should be the correct math.

 

19lb/hr is gonna be pretty darn small for any big HP application or even for any application considering our secondary injector is 1100 CC and the primary is what 700? Thats 1800 total which is 108L/Hr.  Anyways here is one site which has conversions for you.

 

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/fuelinjectors.htm

thanks for the info on the conversion. I thought that those injectors would work, after all they fuel a 350 up to nearly 400 HP.... oh well...

 

I am looking at a mid-upper range intake. somewhere fron like 2200-uo. They factory intake runners on the TBI cars is less then 6-7" and is a doubly "Y" which is quite restrictive in flow terms.

I have 1 to scale drawing from front done on my intake and the total width(Head outward) is only 8 3/4" I just started designing last night while I was in class at the college I am attending. So I have come up with 3-4 different designs, and I am leaning twoards 2 of them.  

I am trying to keep the runners basically straight to provide a smooth flow with as little internal turbulance as possible. The one I have a tech drawing of has the straight runners, and they are angled inside the air box upward/downward and are staggared dependant on the firing order of the engine. IE 1,3 Upward 2,4 downward.

I will scan it later today when I get nack from class and send it to you so you can see the basic idea of it.

 

The other design I am looking at will be alot more expensive, but would have up to 10-11" runners. I would like to build both and see which does perform better overall.

That one has a reversed airbox design, and reversed angled runners.

 

I have not measured the total availble space that I have to work with in the engine bay yet, again something for later today. I spent most of last night taking measuremnts on the water/Thermo housing needed, and the hight of the flanges needed, ect, ect. I just took a generic measurement of the width/depth  of the stock intake for baseline comparison.

[emc]

i have a sch 40 header on my car now. it holds heat much longer. if the header is hotter it will tend to heat the things around it also. i have to let my car cool down longer then with even the cast mani. if i was runing hard and had to shut down i would worry. the header has good flow but to do so is closer to the block and oil line it also heats them. i am looking into how to remove the extra heat now. im not downing the sch 40 it can be and is done but as in changing anything it changes other things. just to note  with the egt i with out a gage came tell you when the temp is optiomal and car runs the best. but once you pass that point it decrease as fast as it rose. only now its damaging.

[CHC]

well I measured the intake area earlier. It looks like I can get away with an intake that is 10 3/4" wide.(Block to fender) So the intake I was looking at that was planned on having 7" runners, will infact be able to go up to 9" total length.

[propeine]

are you using math to try and optimize your intake at all or are you just kinda flyin by the seat of your pants on the dimensions?  I realize you want to build both and test them but saving money by doing things on a computer beforehand has always seemed like a good idea to me.  Also how do you have straight runners that are angled inside the airbox (which I'm assuming to be a plenum)  The ports on the head aren't staggered.  I'm just trying to get a picture goin.

 

Tom

[CHC]

are you using math to try and optimize your intake at all or are you just kinda flyin by the seat of your pants on the dimensions?  I realize you want to build both and test them but saving money by doing things on a computer beforehand has always seemed like a good idea to me.  Also how do you have straight runners that are angled inside the airbox (which I'm assuming to be a plenum)  The ports on the head aren't staggered.  I'm just trying to get a picture goin.

 

Tom

I used to have autocad 00 and 02, but I lost my harddrive(crashed) and have not gotten time to redownload it.

 

So yes, right now I am going by the seat of my pants. By reading a few article/threads in this site they say that many think that a runner length of 8-9" is best to support the off boost low end. So that is what I have been aiming for.

 

Yes, the "air box" is the plenium.

 

I know the actual intake ports are not staggered... what I meant by that is the intake tubes in the plenium are staggered on my design. I am hoping in effect it will open 2 distinct regions of available pressure to be able to flow. Meaning the runners are not fighting for the same air.

By staggering the intake tubes, I am hoping to give each tube its own "supply zone" and that I have seen will greatly increase available flow geometry. I am trying to get this image scanned so you can see it better... but I am having trouble. the "scanner" driver for my printer is not installed...

[shift1313]

I appreciate the offer joe but as tom said him and I have been designing these things for awhile now and used many calculations to optimize performance.  Id definately be interested in seeing what you have when your done and how it works.  I know you and i talked a bit the other night and am curious about it.  i agree with tom about the injectors.  im looking to run 4 550cc injectors which are about 54lb/hrs a piece.  

[CHC]

Funny how much attension this thread has gotten...

 

Anyway, I have decided on a design that will be like a modified 350 TPI intake. I will have to have 4 tubes bent 180 to get the corret runner length.

 

 

EDIT: As a side note, I do have 4 of the TBI injectors.. could those work for the MPI/TPI conversion?

I think it is obvious that I probly have the tools to make a fuel rail.

[shift1313]

nope, cant use those injectors.  those injectors are for a wet manifold. you need MPI injectors to get the right spray.  im looking to get maybe a 1st gen dsm turbo upgraded injectors, i think stock were 440cc.  anywhere in the range from 550 to 750 will be more then enough fuel for the goal you wanted to reach.  using 8 10lb injectors equates to a total of 80lbs,  thats a lot less fuel then even the stock system.  stock my car has about 108lbs between the two injectors.

 

 

**i just saw it was 19lb not 10lb injectors, still that equates to 152lb i think, i still think you'll be short big time

[propeine]

EDIT: As a side note, I do have 4 of the TBI injectors.. could those work for the MPI/TPI conversion?

I think it is obvious that I probly have the tools to make a fuel rail.

 

No offense but how else were you planning hooking up injectors without building a fuel rail?  Also Matt is right about the injectors (he may have been the one that informed me of that originally actually).  Any pics you could provide would be helpful.  I've got an idea with the 350 TPI of what I think but I got no idea if its close to right.

Once I get mine totally done I may post a pic.

 

Tom

[shift1313]

from what your saying im imagine it looking something like this

http://www.me.psu.edu/me415/SPRING02/intake/2001plenumshort.jpg

 

is that close?

[CHC]

from what your saying im imagine it looking something like this

http://www.me.psu.edu/me415/SPRING02/intake/2001plenumshort.jpg

 

is that close?

Close to the first design I was  going to do yes. now the design that has the super 11-12" runner, that that and have the tubes doing a 180 wrap around off 1 side.

 

4X5.5" with the 5.5" horizontal and the tubes coming out the fenderwall side, and doing a 180 to the head. this will keep the plenium cloeser t the bloack giving massive clearance twoards the fender wall. I was also looking at placing the injectors at the bottom of that 180, pointing straight down the runners at the intake valve.

 

EDIT: here is a quick thing I did in MS Paint. I still cannot get my scanner working..ok I have it on my comp. email me and I will send to you.

[shift1313]

http://www.me.psu.edu/me415/SPRING02/intake/2001plenumlong.jpg

 

i sent you a pm

[Ray_R]

for those who need to figure out their injector sizes.. http://www.sdsefi.com/techffhp.htm

if you plan on needing anything to flow more than 720cc you might want to start thinking about staged injection.  good luck on this project, i would like to see what the final outcome/cost will turn out to be for the MPI, fuel management and injectors.  if you can get it to cost less than 1500.00 then you did real good.

[CHC]

for those who need to figure out their injector sizes.. http://www.sdsefi.com/techffhp.htm

if you plan on needing anything to flow more than 720cc you might want to start thinking about staged injection.  good luck on this project, i would like to see what the final outcome/cost will turn out to be for the MPI, fuel management and injectors.  if you can get it to cost less than 1500.00 then you did real good.

 

well I am going Megasquirt EFI and the injectors are from a buick GN page at 55Lbers, 55-62 a piece. Fuel rail, stock(aluminum bar)$15 tops Aluminum sheeting 1/2 " and 1/4" plates and 1 5/8"OD 1 1/2" ID Aluminum tubing are up to around $55 or so including shipping. The emgasquirt system is what? around 70-100? dunno exact price with all the things I want to run on it.(lookng at MAF type system)

 

So I am up around $400 right now. Tack on a welder(if you do not have one) Lincoln Pro Mig 135+Agon tank and gas $590ish butt hat come in handy on many more projects so

$900 so far.

I have a spare 350 TPI chevy twin 52MM(Some 8-900 CFM TB) throttle body so that is a free item for me.

I will say another $100-150 in Misc parts, so a little over $1100 including a welder ($600 if already have one) to go from a TBI to a extremely high flow TPI type system. and a little thought and work on your own.

[shift1313]

$1500!!!! holy crapoly.  

 

Im doing it for less then a third of that.