JessN16 Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Thanks. You're addressing a real concern of mine with that Xtant -- stuff crashing into it. I carry practically an Eagle Scout survival kit in the back of my car...two gallons of water/antifreeze mix, two fire extinguishers (one in the car, one in the trunk), oil, ATF fluid, etc. I've also got enough spare parts in a couple of black satin carrying cases to build a Starion in miniature right there on the side of the road. (G) The grating is an interesting idea. The installer who'll be working with me has been at it for 19 years, used to work on IASCA circuit vehicles and will probably have the connections needed to procure some of that stuff. If it will all fit, I'm going to leave the cargo cover on the car and put some type of cushioning material on the bottom of it so it would bang when it bounces on the trunk shocks. The only thing I don't like is that the trunk cover is pretty sturdy and won't do me any favors when I want to bounce soundwaves off the back glass. (G) Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 If a 100Hz wave will pass through the plushed out seat in my luxury car well enough to make my hair shake, it will go through a 1/4" cargo cover without trouble. If you're really paranoid about it have your installer make a frame work covered in acoustically transparent grill cloth to replace the stock cover since you like the stock design. I'm glad to hear you've got a good installer on the case. You'll save a lot of time that way. Unlike me, who has had two huge amplifiers and a couple of signal processors waiting under my bed for over a year now.... It is kinda fun when someone says something about my car sounding nice and I tell 'em "This is just the subsitute bangs." ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessN16 Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Should have said so the cover WOULDN'T bang when the bass hits. Aarrgh. We seem to have some pretty good installers in the Southeast. The best I've ever worked with is a guy named James Helton, who owns a company called Audio Plus in Atmore, Ala. He's mostly gotten out of the car stereo business now and is doing home and church sound system installations. If you can somehow bribe him to do your car, you won't believe it when you finally get the car back. Just noticed your sig; are the only StarQuests you have parts cars, or do you have one on the road? Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 Just parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicagoslick Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 I hate to break up your guy's conversation, I just wanted to let you know you have plenty of room to put a 10" or 12" in the back and still have room. I have a 15" with an amp rack with 2 amps a capacitor and a cd changer mounted. I also have crossover networks and custom lighting. This all installed with the factory components intact. Spare tire, carpeting and the hatch cover inplace. You will however have to be very resourceful with the space. There really is not alot to waste if you want to squeeze alot back there. I still have full use of my back seats as well. When my hatch is closed and the rear seats are up you can not tell I have anything. When I'm done putting my car back together I will post pictures. A question I can answer for you about Tim's alternator is that it puts out 110 amps and cost about $220. It comes with a mounting bracket and wiring harness and directions. He also has a 140 amp upgrade ( which I have ) that mounts the same with the same components. I have been very impressed with the alternator. I have ran more than 2000 watts from my system and have had no problems. Good luck with how your system turns out. By the way its not how many speakers or amps you run but the quality and that sounds like the direction your headed. Good luck again, gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessN16 Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 Quite right on the number of speakers... I had 19 in an SHO; 13 of them were from the front seat forward, all hidden. We did some really trick things with that install -- the front doors took a month to build, each. The problem was, I had great frequency response and SPL potential across all frequencies, but my soundstage was a mess. If not for using an Audio Control center channel processor, I would have REALLY had a mess. The end result was really rich sound that had virtually no left-right separative abilities. By the time you calculated on- and off-axis response for 13 front stage speakers...well... The front speakers I've chosen this time are a pair of Boston Z6 components. I'll be using one sub in the back and the other speaker locations (dash, rear pods) will probably go empty. If I can somehow mod the front doors enough to get the 6" Z6s in instead of the 5 1/4" Z6s, I won't have to worry about separate midbass drivers. The only regret I have is that Altec Lansing no longer makes the 5.25ALS separates for car stereo anymore. Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicagoslick Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 Jess, I believe you can get 6.5 up front in the door panels. I've heard of people getting them to fit. I used Orion HCCA 5.25 seperates up front and Orion HCCA 6.5 seperates in the rear in my install. Run alot of clean power to your speakers and keep the gains down and you should have a great system. As far as 10" and 12" speakers go I would go for the 12". It is a far better speaker for all around bass response. Hits much better in low frequency (30hz and lower) and flexes up to 80 hz as well as a 10". This is not to say 10" speakers are not great there just not as flexible as a 12"s. I'm also sure there are 10" speakers rated better than 12"s, but generally speaking 12"s are better. I have only entered a couple of sound off competitions and I am a sound quality person not a boom or loudness person. I've built 5 strong stereo systems and have been praised by my peers at local sound offs with my ingenuity. All my systems have focused on the seperates type idea long before there were seperates for sale. good luck again, gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris.Reid Posted February 24, 2003 Report Share Posted February 24, 2003 The box I put in my car was only 13.5x13.5x7.5 and hasn't had any problems running my 12". I haven't noticed any problems with the alternator either...the same amp used to dim all of my lights in my 92 camry, but the voltometer never even wavers, even with the hardest bass hits. I recommend getting one sub with a good amp, somewhere around 400-600 watts RMS. And no no no on the solo barics (square kickers). Overpriced, overpowering, and will do nothing more than shake your car loose so it sounds worse. It's all about quality with the entire system, not just thumping bass and crappy mids and highs. I mostly listen to rock music, and this set up is pretty much perfect. I just wish I could turn down the sub a little more from the head unit itself rather than turn it up... a few songs just have too much, but...meh.. http://www.starquestclub.com/index.pl?boar...;num=1039463891 chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 Â I just wish I could turn down the sub a little more from the head unit itself rather than turn it up Turn your amp gain down a smidge and turn the deck sub volume up a smidge, then you can adjust up and down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsi4me Posted February 27, 2003 Report Share Posted February 27, 2003 i have a jbl 1200 and two 12 jbl subs with a rockford 1 farad cap and its been in my ca for two years with original alternator and i had no problems with it.. and it bumps like hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessN16 Posted February 27, 2003 Report Share Posted February 27, 2003 I'm also going to use a cap...but I ordered the upgraded alternator this week anyway. When I told me installer, I thought he was going to try to kiss me. (G) Better to have it (power) and not need it than need it and not have it, I suppose. Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted February 27, 2003 Report Share Posted February 27, 2003 Car Audio tested that JBL and found that it pulled 114 amps and it's maximum RMS load... I can't help but think they worked their's A TON harder than you're working yours. Caps are a nice thing to do for your charging system. It will live alot longer and happier with them.. btw, here's a slightly funny power system story: This is the first winter I've had my stock GM alternator built to 190 amps and big Optima red top (800U?). Since I had the alternator built I noticed that it takes a few more RPMs to get it spinning to where it's really productive vs. stock. Well, in combination with that and the Optima getting cold I've noticed that at stop lights my turn signals flash really slow. Like, half speed. It's kind of amusing to pop the tranny out of gear and give it about 400 more RPMs and watch the signals speed back up. That's more or less ok with me because the car runs down the street 90% of the time at 1500 RPM, which is where the alternator seems to like generating power. Oh, and just because I happened to think about it, big alternators when delivering a load (like mine constantly is.. 8)) get HOT. Don't pop the hood and decide to prop your upper body weight on the alternator housing while the car is still warm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88BlueTSiquest Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 A cap is just as hard on the electrical system as an amp. Something to consider, a cap is capable of instantaneous power discharge, but it's also capable of instantaneous power draw. So, in all reality, the alternator has to work just as hard if not harder, to run a system utilizing caps. A cap's biggest, and for the most part - only, benefit is instant current for transient peaks. This instant current allows for cooler and more efficient amp running. Think of a cap as a mod for the amp, it has nothing to do with the alternator itself. It takes power to make power, and since a cap is incapable of making power, it's obviously taking it. I usually state one of the best mods you can do would be to upgrade the alternator, it's wiring, and the main battery of the car. Once this is done, then the system can be installed. This is the sole reason I have nothing in my car amplifier-wise, as our measily alternator's can't hardly sustain themselves much less add-ons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicagoslick Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 "A cap is just as hard on the electrical system as an amp. Something to consider, a cap is capable of instantaneous power discharge, but it's also capable of instantaneous power draw. So, in all reality, the alternator has to work just as hard if not harder, to run a system utilizing caps." A cap charges like a battery. It is not instantaneous. I will say it is faster than a battery while charging, though. As far as a cap causing an alternator to work harder, it actually will help it work easier. Once the cap is charged it will help absorb spikes in power draw that the battery / alternator can not keep up with. good luck, gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88BlueTSiquest Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 "A cap is just as hard on the electrical system as an amp. Something to consider, a cap is capable of instantaneous power discharge, but it's also capable of instantaneous power draw. So, in all reality, the alternator has to work just as hard if not harder, to run a system utilizing caps." A cap charges like a battery. Â It is not instantaneous. Â I will say it is faster than a battery while charging, though. Â As far as a cap causing an alternator to work harder, Â it actually will help it work easier. Â Once the cap is charged it will help absorb spikes in power draw that the battery / alternator can not keep up with. Â good luck, gary Nope, actually the reason for the resistor to charge a cap is because of it's ability to instantly charge. If it were a slow charge device, it would be defeating it's purpose of storing peak on demand current, as after it sustained an amp through a transient burst, it wouldn't have the ability to charge back up for the next transient. A large cap's initial charge rate is fast enough to possibly blow most inline fuses. And as far as it not being a burden on an battery or alternator, think of it this way. Any electrical device poses a load potential. A cap is not a 'free' load device, it requires current to put out current. That would be like saying adding a second battery to an alternator won't hinder the alternator's performance. The alternator would have to work to charge are secondary storage devices. If the alternator has a tough time keeping the voltage of the car at 14.4volts, the cap isn't going to help. The cap will merely 'attempt' to sustain a steady 14.4volts to the amp, not the rest of the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted March 7, 2003 Report Share Posted March 7, 2003 Jack, what you're saying makes perfect sense in theory, but it doesn't really wash in the real world for me. If what you're saying is absolutely true then the cap represents a 1:1 i/o ratio. If that were true lights would dim when the cap recharges just like they dim without having caps. I can't believe that a 100A load out of the capacitor in t time creates a 100A load on the charging system in the same t. Gonna have to explain this to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88BlueTSiquest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 A cap does 'slow' it's recharge time as it reaches a full charge level. However, thinking that a cap is a totally 'load' free device in the electrical system is the improper way of thinking. As it will draw a load, and not relieve the stress on the vehicles electrical system as salesmen would lead you to believe. If you have flashing 'disco' headlights before a cap install, chances are highly probable that you will still have flashing lights after a cap install. The only real way to satisfy this problem is with an upgraded alternator and main battery. A cap's only real use to 'stabilize' the voltage at the amp, so that the amp could have a constant stable supply of current through any transient peaks. The cap will attempt to resist any change in voltage and attempt to supply the amp the power it needs. But this is of course at the cost of yet another load device on the alternator, thus making the alternator work harder than it was before the cap install. Since a cap can't 'make' electricity, it's obviously going to use it, and due to the fact it can't make power it's not going to fix a problem caused by a weak alternator. Simple electronics. I use cap's myself. But I don't use them to attempt to bandage a weak electrical system, I use them for their power supply stiffening capabilities. This is why there's currently not a system in my Quest, as I need to get the weak alternator upgraded before I do anything system-wise. Goes back to that old saying, your system is only as good as it's weakest link. And in this case, the factory 85a alternator is seriously weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 A cap does 'slow' it's recharge time as it reaches a full charge level So, if you use enough cap that you're keep them mostly full most of the time, you should be able to relieve some of the stress on the charging system, right? My hope is to be able to work my alternator at a more or less constant rate instead of spiking it all the time. The reason I ask is because I currently have my power system budgeted for 2x the amount of "recommended" capacitance in addition to the optima red top and 190 amp alternator. I'm wondering if it's going to be enough... My ZPA 0.5 can produce 1000 watts RMS without blinking and my Adcom GFA-4404 will most likely run about 400 watts RMS. I have 2 Farads for the ZPA and 1 Farad for the Adcom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88BlueTSiquest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 Considering 'perfect world' conditions, your 2 amps at full RMS tilt, would be able to draw ~97 amps at 14.4v. If you consider a peak transient spike at around ~180amps, I don't think your 190amp alternator would have much problem with that load, especially with 3 farads of capacitance, and a good old Optima red top. Biggest thing to consider, beef up the main ground to your battery. This is highly overlooked. You've got a minimum of 4g. running to your amps, and grounding your amps, but most car's only come with a 6g main ground on the battery. Also, if you haven't already, beef up the power wire off the alternator, 190amps is useless through the 8-10g factory cable, about like sucking a golf ball through a garden hose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicagoslick Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 "A cap is just as hard on the electrical system as an amp. Something to consider, a cap is capable of instantaneous power discharge, but it's also capable of instantaneous power draw. So, in all reality, the alternator has to work just as hard if not harder, to run a system utilizing caps." A cap charges like a battery. It is not instantaneous. I will say it is faster than a battery while charging, though. As far as a cap causing an alternator to work harder, it actually will help it work easier. Once the cap is charged it will help absorb spikes in power draw that the battery / alternator can not keep up with. good luck, gary "Nope, actually the reason for the resistor to charge a cap is because of it's ability to instantly charge. If it were a slow charge device, it would be defeating it's purpose of storing peak on demand current, as after it sustained an amp through a transient burst, it wouldn't have the ability to charge back up for the next transient. A large cap's initial charge rate is fast enough to possibly blow most inline fuses. And as far as it not being a burden on an battery or alternator, think of it this way. Any electrical device poses a load potential. A cap is not a 'free' load device, it requires current to put out current. That would be like saying adding a second battery to an alternator won't hinder the alternator's performance. The alternator would have to work to charge are secondary storage devices. If the alternator has a tough time keeping the voltage of the car at 14.4volts, the cap isn't going to help. The cap will merely 'attempt' to sustain a steady 14.4volts to the amp, not the rest of the car. " Do a search on the internet on capacitors and there charge rate. You will better understand a capacitor and its characteristics. I'm not here to make anyone look ignorant or stupid. I just want people to be better educated about the information they receive. I agree as far as the electrical system. It should be upgraded anytime you attempt to run high power amps. gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikec Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Something else to consider with the big capacitor... one of its big jobs is the fact that it can supply high current quickly - i.e. at a high frequency. Typically, amps are mounted far away from the battery and alternator so those long, beefy wires act like small inductors - inductors resist changes in current. The longer your wires are, the more trouble they'll have supplying rapidly changing current demands to your alternator. The capacitor, placed closer to the amp, can supply the instantaineous current needed by the amp. The alternator still needs to output more current though. It just outputs it a tad later than the amp needed it. Consider too the alternator is really a bunch of wire coils - i.e. inductors. Alternators do not respond instantly to sudden current draw changes. Capacitors, placed close to the amp, "fill in" the sudden draw until the alternator and wiring catch up. Capacitors, when they are totally discharged, can and do draw a ton of current to charge them. In technical parlance, a capacitor has low internal resistance - and this is why it can supply a huge current when the amp demands it. Initially, it appears as a direct short. As soon as it starts to charge, the current going into it starts dropping. The current vs. time profile is an an upside-down parabola - remember those physics curves of something getting closer and closer to its goal but never getting there - just asymptotically approaching it? That's what the current vs. time of a capacitor is... it never quite reaches zero technically. For all practical purposes though it'll charge to 100% quite quickly. Some people liken a capacitor to a small battery... well yes and no. It will store a charge but it does it using different methods than a battery. Capacitors store a charge directly... batteries [o]generate[/i] a charge via a chemical reaction. The "farad" rating of a capacitor determines how much charge it'll hold and the construction methods determine its internal resistance and inductance - how much DC current (resistance) and AC current (inductance) it'll have. Batteries have similar issues and typically have far higher internal resistance values. Why am I talking about batteries? To hopefully clarify internal resistance and inductance. Picture a couple "D" cell batteries and a moderate sized capacitor for amps. Both can be charged to 12 volts and will deliver current for a while until they discharge. Now, which can deliver more current? If you hook a car headlight (low resistance so it makes a big current draw) to the capacitor, the headlight will flash on for a split second and then fade out... it was able to get a high current from the capacitor until the capacitor discharged. Now connect it to the "D" cell stack... you'll be lucky if you see any glow. Why? The internal resistance of the batteries will limit how much current will flow to the headlight so it won't get the voltage & current needed to light up. That's a DC (direct current) example. In the AC world, the same thing happens on the power feed wires to your amp. The car's wiring and alternator have a bit of inductance (resistance to AC) screwing up the power feed to your amp. A big capacitor has low inductance to fill in the gaps where the car's battery/alternator/wiring system can't keep up. However... if you connect those "D" cells to a flashlight sized light bulb, they'll power it for a while - maybe an hour. Connect that same flash light bulb to the capacitor and it'll probably last only a few minutes. The batteries have the ability to generate more "charge" via their chemical reaction (as if they had a much higher "farad" rating) but they can't deliver that charge as quickly as the capacitor because batteries have high internal resistance. When the amp suddenly demands more current, the capacitor will fill it in until the alternator can catch up and crank up the current. Even if the amp's appetite drops, the alternator will output a higher current for a moment just to recharge the capacitor. The peak current supplied by the alternator may be less than the peak current going into the amplifier - the capacitor fills in the gaps - but the total power level created over time by the alternator must be at least the same as the amplifier's demand if the alternator is to keep the battery charged. The more low frequency content of your music, the longer these huge amperage loads will exist. mike c. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Biggest thing to consider, beef up the main ground to your battery. This is highly overlooked. You've got a minimum of 4g. running to your amps, and grounding your amps, but most car's only come with a 6g main ground on the battery. Also, if you haven't already, beef up the power wire off the alternator, 190amps is useless through the 8-10g factory cable, about like sucking a golf ball through a garden hose. Already on the case. In fact, that's why both of my "nice" amps still aren't in the car. I haven't had time to run the 0/1 awg to replace the factory wiring. My car has the 2 connector, 3 wire, arrangement on the positive terminal and the 1 connector, 2 wire, arrangement on the ground. Just doing the engine compartment will be a full day job by the time I fab up some stuff and change a few things around. I want the car's starter and fuse box to retain the stock wiring. To do that I'm going to have to get the 2 wire positive connector off of a car in the junk yard and modify it slightly. It looks to me like the stock harness has the starter (4 awg) and alternator (maybe 12 awg?) sharing a connector. The fuse panel uses a separate dedicated connector (12 awg?). I want to rewire it so that the 2 lead connector runs the starter and fuse panel. I'll install a dedicated 1/0 awg run from the alternator to a top mounted distribution puck. I want the side terminals of the battery to look stock and the top terminals to house all of the new wiring. I'll probably replace the negative to block wire with a single wire cable out of a different car and run a 0/1 awg wire from the body to the top terminal. Any reason not to do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88BlueTSiquest Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 Mike, Excellent technical definition on how a cap works ;D Randy, No. I usually don't worry so much about the 'factory' appearance of the wiring. But I do the same thing with a Red top in a GM application. I try to keep all the 'stock' GM wiring done on the side posts, and use the top posts for the upgraded Ground wire, and upgraded Alternator wire along with the main power wire. So, to clarify, No I don't see a reason why not to do what you are planning Sounds to me that you had it all figured out from the start. Only thing I might add, is there are aftermarket side-post adapters that allow you to add wires. If this would somehow help you out, it won't look factory, but it will work with the main factory harness and add the ability to bolt more wires to the top portion. If this helps, http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/ezcompare/a...ize.asp?key=135 the main body is designed to replace the GM bolt and hold the GM terminal onto the battery, yet it has a secondary bolt for ease of hooking up upgraded cables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 Days ahead of you, my good Brotha. http://www.maxwelhse.com/Album/2003/02-07/small/Olds%20-%2005.JPG That's just my interum solutuion though. I really don't like them because they aren't isolated in any way. I hit mine with some shrink tube and some of that rubber dip stuff to help out. When the 0/1 goes in, and I make some sort of weather proof battery cover, I'll be switching over to these: http://images.cardomain.com/products/pho/PHOZBR100KIT.jpg I've already got 'em.. Just waiting on the wire. I want the side posts to look stock so attention is attracted to the top. btw - I am the king of overkill. 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ Posted March 29, 2003 Report Share Posted March 29, 2003 just wanted to add. the theory that a 10" hits faster than a 12 or 15 is a MYTH!! a 15 can hit just as tight as a 10". it ALL depends on the box you put it in, not on the size of a speaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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