Electrical issues - Volvo 960 - Battery drain, heated positive cable

[Edde]

Guys, dad's 97 960 is giving us trouble. A good battery got killed and he had a new one put in. After a few days of not driving it, no crank. I went over and put my dvm on it and it was clearly drained as far as it can go. Zero volts. I jump it and read roughly 13.5 v going back with headlights on, 13.75 with them off. So it is charging somewhat. After a few minutes I notice the positive cable is pretty warm. I trade cars with him and drive it to my house, about 20 minutes in traffic. Get stopped, pop the hood and the cable is now HOT as can be. It cools after shutdown.

 

The cables/connections are all tight as far as I can chase them (disappearing into the harness). And there's a pretty serious draw when it's parked. Anytime I've ever had a hot cable I had a poor connection.

 

I've set my amp scale (to read between the cable and + battery terminal) to 2000ma and have a steady baseline of 21. I've pulled the charge wire from alt and a bunch of fuses with no change. I do have no idea what I'm really doing, just poking around.

 

This is where you come in. WTH am I looking at or how can I figure this out?

[tsi_tom]

My guess is that the starter is shorted.

[Guest]

My guess is that the starter is shorted.

 

This, check the starter. Eh, also check the power in to the fans, Volvo due funky stuff in that area as well. When my mom's Volvo started giving her problems I solved it with a for sale sign! lol

Edited May 31, 2014 by louswheel01

[Edde]

Hm, thanks. Starter was way up on my list as I know it's original.

 

As far as selling, yes and he'd like to. But that means buying another car and he's 91. Rather prefer to limp this along until we take his keys away

[87redcat]

yea start by pulling starer cable first. check amp draw.

he's 91 and still driving that's fantastic. had to pull my mother's this year at 83.

[Guest]

I'm at the junction to pull my mom's keys. Shes pushing 80 and just had an accident last week. Her second accident in a 2 year span. Though one of them was not her fault, this last one was and she won't own up to it. It's gonna be a fight to take the keys from her.

 

I say limp that Volvo til he can't drive anymore. Besides, those older Volvo are safe cars.

[Edde]

Well I got the starter isolated and have no change. I've pulled many relays and fuses and still have nothing. I moved down my scale to 200m and still see 21.0 or 21.1 - this is 21 mA? I really have only a passing familiarity with this aspect of electrical.

 

Yeah he's pretty amazing. The trouble with when to take them off the road is you might not be sure until something awful happens. In theory, he's aware of it and doesn't plan to protest. But in practical terms, we shall see.

[vbrad511]

Disconnect the alternator. Sometimes when a diode goes bad internally they'll "short" and draw current.

[Crazy larry]

I would google electrical issues for that car or the Volvo forums. some of the newer ones have door lock issues...

[87redcat]

Yea... duh for all of us... check a volvo forum. Not that there is not a bunch of smart guys here but, probably someone has run into this issue before

[tsi_tom]

Well I got the starter isolated and have no change. I've pulled many relays and fuses and still have nothing. I moved down my scale to 200m and still see 21.0 or 21.1 - this is 21 mA? I really have only a passing familiarity with this aspect of electrical.

 

Yeah he's pretty amazing. The trouble with when to take them off the road is you might not be sure until something awful happens. In theory, he's aware of it and doesn't plan to protest. But in practical terms, we shall see.

 

On my Conquest I am drawing 30 milliamps when it is off.

 

http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/tsi_tom/The%20Missouri%20Project/Electrical/Currentdrawat40milliamps_zpsede56e85.jpg

[Edde]

Thanks for all the inputs. And I'm on 2 volvo boards. This is a small community and less fragmented. I can always get answers here. I had googled and read some before posting. Just getting what I can.

 

Tom tells me one thing I need right now - that 21 is not a large draw. Didn't seem like it would be.

 

I've got 12.12 v on the battery after a few hours on and off the charger. I hooked it back up and will see what I lose overnight.

 

I did try disconnecting the alt big wire too. I really figured this was a starter or alt from the get go.

 

The heat might be killing batteries.

[Edde]

Well the volts ticked down from 12.12 to 12.09 overnight. Not very significant in my mind. Thing now is that the amp draw is not steady. It constantly goes up and down between 21 and 31.

 

Gonna run it in a bit and see if the heat was actually from the system attempting to charge a dead zero battery.

 

I've put it all back together and made sure my terminals are all tight as crap. Will see if it draws down much tonight. I can't rule out operator error since this thing is parked where I don't see it too often.

[Shelby]

to heat up a large cable it'd take a lot of amprage draw , late model cars have a huge current draw

compared to older cars , some times several amps

 

if at all possible check as far up the cable as you can for hot or heat,, many times such a problem

is a short to the frame by a pinched wire , the wire will only be hot to the shorted area

 

large shorts will blow fuses or fuse links , only if the short is after the fuse

 

I'd suggest you leave the batt cable off until you find the cause or you may have a fire ,

actually I'd suggest you do not use the car as it is , it could catch on fire at any time with such a

problem

[Edde]

Thanks, I got what you're saying. We won't be having any fires I followed the harness pretty well around and stuff is locked down pretty tight. Hard plastic covers all over. Nobody is going to use the car until I or a shop figure it out. I don't know if this could be a "sometimes" short when parked? Used to be a legend about that or something I do recall

 

I charged the battery and put it all back together and drove it about 5 or maybe 10 minutes and the cable did not get hot. The charging volts went up to 13.96 with headlights on (from 13.5 before) and I left it resting showing 12.88 V on the battery. In the am I'll see what the v drop is. This all made me feel better about the basics.

 

But it was a dead as s new die hard gold battery so there is some cause. I can't rule out a dome light, lol.

[Shelby]

all late model alt's put out almost 15 volts , but a weak battery may not make an alt put out max

volts

 

in all my years working at chry dealers I can't begin to tell you all the weird things I have found , ailing wiring harness's even inside plastic covers mean little ,like they say crap happens but

what I said about fuses blowing still goes,, a heavy short has to be before a fuse if that systems

fuse does not blow

 

I have found cable splices that were not done properly and a bad joint would cause the wire to heat up

these can be any where in the main harness power supply

 

you need to hook up a current draw set up that can read the actual amp draw while car is on and off , you may need to leave it that way for some time or until the problem arizes at least , like they say when there is no problem there is NO problem

very few clip on meters are sensitive enough to read small amp draws

 

is there any part of the cars electrical system that is not operateing properly , also keep in mind you can have as many as 7 ecu's in that car along with several stereo amps , I have seen Volvo's that would turn on the heater fans if the in car sensor thought that a dog or person was in the car and the in

car temp was too hot for the persons safty , the car's ecu has microphones that actually listen for a person or animal breathing , bet you didn't know that

[Edde]

Thanks for the info. The only things not operating normally - dome light buttons feel a bit flaky and the ign switch is worn some. The car is pretty solid but mushy.

 

I started it today briefly and with the a/c licked on the cable warmed up. Air pump starts immediately too for a minute and I think that may also contribute. Not nearly hot like it was when the battery was discharged. It is just the first 4 inches of the cable hot. Looks good, can't tell.

 

Seems to be holding reasonable voltage right now. I'll let him take it and pay a couple hours to try and chase it out. If I can't figure it out easily I have to move on. He can afford it I just hate to do it right away. And it has little value. You know.

 

I put him in his pickup truck for now.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Edde

[Shelby]

Eddie open up any covering on the first part of the posi cable , look for any spliceing . also Volvo

had an engine harness problem for years with wire insolation falling off the wires leaving bare wires all over the place , most of this had to do with engine fuel sensor wiring but you never know

 

but you need to have a handle on the exact amperage draw going thru that posi cable , also look for a

junction block on the posi circuit , and if possible replace the cable from batt to block with a test

set up , you may not have a huge draw just a bad cable , initial amprage from alt to batt after

initial start up can be as much as a 100 amps for a moment or so

 

many euro cars had these blocks installed so you could apply battery power to car while battery was

unhooked during testing or batt replacement due to anti theft radios and other features

[Edde]

I've picked thru a diagram and don't see any junction box sort of item. I've checked very basic that batt voltage is present at starter to ground and alt to ground with no loss but only checked not running.

 

Not sure I can as you say get a handle on exact amp draw or how I'd do this with the car running.

 

Clearly when looking at the pos terminal, the heat is right at the transition point between cable and lead terminal. It's shrink wrapped which you can sort of see. And it IS slightly melted looking. My working theory now is this:

 

He waits 5 or 6 days between starts. He gets it running and does a short trip and parks it for a few more days. Rinse and repeat. All the time the resistance in this cable is preventing enough current to adequately recharge the battery so it keeps falling bit by bit at rest. Doesn't fully explain the COMPLETE discharge that I found

 

The branch off to the left runs right into that fuse box which is clean as can be inside. That branch does not have the heat on it.

 

http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r760/yedde/DSC00332a_zpsc52feb62.jpg

Edited June 3, 2014 by Edde

[Shelby]

Eddie wrote = Clearly when looking at the pos terminal, the heat is right at the transition point between cable and lead terminal. It's shrink wrapped which you can sort of see. And it IS slightly melted looking. My working theory now is this:

 

any green on the wires coming out of the main terminal is a dead giveaway to a poor connection

 

I think you have found the problem , we find many terminals not made properly in the car repair business , in fact my daughter had to replace the batt posi cable on her new chev this year over a poor terminal connection it was done by a dealer so it was expensive $200

 

you can do it your self , use replacement bolt on lug terminals , one you have for the alt feed the starter log you can get at a stereo shop or battery shop , be sure to crimp and solder the lead

 

there's many ways to crimp a batt cable end ( first place proper size shrink tube over the cable and slide it up the

cable far enough to get away from any heat )one easy way is to use an open wrench that just allows the terminal to set

in the open wrench , place the other end of the wrench on something solid and use a blunt ended punch to hit the

terminal in the center of the terminal mid way of the wrench this will crimp the wire very tightly to the cable

terminal , use small dia solder it'll melt quicker and take less heat

next use a small flame torch to melt solder into the terminal end .before sealing the joint smear a light film of

dielectric grease over the end of the solder , wipe off any excess grease , what you end up is a super good connection

 

the batt being dead may be a completely diff problem , and most likely is , most euro cars do not like long periods of

nonuse

 

also look into the alt out put the numbers you gave are a bit low 13.6 or so normally says it has a bad diode or

internal reg problem , a good charging system should read 14.5 to 14.8 volts on any late model car

 

do all charging tests with a fully charged batt

[Shelby]

http://www.delcity.net/store/Battery-Lugs,-Crimp-Tools-&-Battery-Cable-Ends/p_102

 

http://www.batterymart.com/p-universal-marine-battery-terminal.html?utm_source=Bing&utm_medium=Base&utm_campaign=ComparisonShopping?creative={creative}&device=c&network={network}&matchtype={matchtype}

 

with nuts and washers always use copper or SS washers and nuts

 

replacement terminals need to fit the terminal as tight as possible before crimping

[Edde]

You're reading my mind I pretty much decided yesterday that a new alt is in order. I have yet to see over 14v and yesterday I got it fully warmed up, with a/c blowing hard, and cooling fan running and the volts dropped below 13.5 for the first time since I've been looking - around 13.3.

 

How to reconnect a really good cable end is what I've been think about as well. I see no green but at the point where it fits into the terminal either the wire is turned into stone or it's a metal sheath because it don't flex at all. I didn't expose it yet because I don't seem to have any tape on hand. I know not to go into it unprepared - if it's not right it's a mess.

 

Really appreciate the advice and sounding board. I don't believe there is anything else wrong.

[Shelby]

you make any head way Eddie