starion0352 Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 does the rear arm bind the strut housing? i have been looking over this thread and i think its in part the fault.http://www.starquestclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=44315 as the rear arm moves up or down the geometry changes,but the srtut is held tight in one angle on its upper and lower perches....seems like this would is affect bend or put bending forces on the housing on a stock starion there is a pivot of sorts(the rubber isolater) on top of the rear strut assembly but none at the bottom. now add in a rear camber plate and you have no pivot. all other rear independent trailing arm suspension cars use a pivot bushing for the lower arm to strut mount. take for example these 240sx rearshttp://img407.imageshack.us/img407/180/240agxfu1.th.jpg and aftermarket rear camber plates for these cars are "pillow ball" units. that means they pivot. yes i know the stock housing never breaks and work fine. with the recent threads on coilovers and tokicos i thought i would throw this out.http://www.starquestclub.com/forums/viewto...&highlight= http://www.starquestclub.com/forums/viewto...ighlight=tokico 101 propose(mookeeh) is making pilllow ball upper rear mounts for our cars already so that helps http://www.mookeeh.com/star.html but where i am really going with this is i think 240sx rear complete assemlies will work on our car with minimal fabrication.1) some light machine work or maybe something you could even do in your driveway on the rear arm pivot bootom to accept the through boly bushing.2) top is just 2 studs to drill holes for.....and aftermarket rear plate are very common! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
importwarrior Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 if you do this lots of pictures please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starion0352 Posted February 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 if you do this lots of pictures please. i plan on trying a rear 240 coilover. there are some used ones on ebay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonestarion Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 coilover..... how much adjustablity can you get out of that again? it seems like my idea to use s13's has made that tiny little gear in your mind to start turning. if you actualy knew how i'm thinking. you night would understand how a fabricator/machinist/welder thinks. hell i think even ford taurus front strut will work on our rears. if anyone has seen these they look similar to sq's but they dont have the flange to bolt it to the rear hub. 1 bolt holds it in a clamp type similar to our cross bolt on the hub. i have only showed 2 people my adaptor design. if your interrested in seeing my design i will be more than happy to email you a copy, as i have yet to figure out how to post pics here. being you dont seem to have none or little fabrication experience you might not know what you are even looking at. I have no hard feelings, as i dont just have something made & throw it out on the market without any testing whatso ever. what if a part fails,if it does i want it to fail while I'm tesing it. not on someone elses car with no testing done. as for the custom teins. it will take them 4-6 months to make them then ship them to the usa office. 4-6 weeks i'll have adaptors ready for testing with s13 fully adjustables. as for a price, it will vary as the struts will be from japan & used but the lowset i have figured was 800 +/- 200 without front& rear camber plates for the sq's. i am working on a group purchase through a tein distributor. this is something i just started as tein wont do a group buy, this is the only reason it has taken so long to get this started. soon as i find out the distributor i will be working through on a "private label group buy." "i will let everyone know", that way those interrested can contact the distributor for more info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starion0352 Posted February 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 coilover..... how much adjustablity can you get out of that again? it seems like my idea to use s13's has made that tiny little gear in your mind to start turning. if you actualy knew how i'm thinking. you night would understand how a fabricator/machinist/welder thinks. hell i think even ford taurus front strut will work on our rears. if anyone has seen these they look similar to sq's but they dont have the flange to bolt it to the rear hub. 1 bolt holds it in a clamp type similar to our cross bolt on the hub. i have only showed 2 people my adaptor design. if your interrested in seeing my design i will be more than happy to email you a copy, as i have yet to figure out how to post pics here. being you dont seem to have none or little fabrication experience you might not know what you are even looking at. I have no hard feelings, as i dont just have something made & throw it out on the market without any testing whatso ever. what if a part fails,if it does i want it to fail while I'm tesing it. not on someone elses car with no testing done. as for the custom teins. it will take them 4-6 months to make them then ship them to the usa office. 4-6 weeks i'll have adaptors ready for testing with s13 fully adjustables. as for a price, it will vary as the struts will be from japan & used but the lowset i have figured was 800 +/- 200 without front& rear camber plates for the sq's. i am working on a group purchase through a tein distributor. this is something i just started as tein wont do a group buy, this is the only reason it has taken so long to get this started. soon as i find out the distributor i will be working through on a "private label group buy." "i will let everyone know", that way those interrested can contact the distributor for more info. please go away........my ideas about the s13 and s14 rears fitting our cars are my own. you just irritate me so much with your b.s. why are you here?it was 6 months plus that you put up a post how you had this tein thing already going good and now you still got nothing......i have more from pictures i got off ebay!! are you even on the 240sx forums? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJpowerHaus Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 does the rear arm bind the strut housing? i have been looking over this thread and i think its in part the fault.http://www.starquestclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=44315 as the rear arm moves up or down the geometry changes,but the srtut is held tight in one angle on its upper and lower perches....seems like this would is affect bend or put bending forces on the housing THIS IS THE BASIS OF A CHAPMAN STRUT! Yes.. that is shouting. Do you not understand the basics of suspension geometry? A 240SX uses what is called a multi link setup which is basically a step beyond double wishbone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_wishbone_suspensionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-link_suspension A Starion uses a Chapman strut which is just a non-steerable MacPherson Strut. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacPherson_struthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapman_strut This means that the strut is RIGIDLY mounted to the hub and that the strut acts as 1 of 3 attachments points to the car. Let me rephrase. The strut is a load bearing item as well as a damper. If you were to use 240SX rear dampers you would find that they are not designed to take the sideloads of a Chapman setup. If you did want to make this work you would need to add an upper control arm to the strut. This would require a new hub or major modifications and a fabrications to the stock hub. If you had pivots on both the top and bottom of the strut the whole setup would just collapse. on a stock starion there is a pivot of sorts(the rubber isolater) on top of the rear strut assembly but none at the bottom. now add in a rear camber plate and you have no pivot. all other rear independent trailing arm suspension cars use a pivot bushing for the lower arm to strut mount. take for example these 240sx rearshttp://img407.imageshack.us/img407/180/240agxfu1.th.jpg and aftermarket rear camber plates for these cars are "pillow ball" units. that means they pivot. yes i know the stock housing never breaks and work fine. with the recent threads on coilovers and tokicos i thought i would throw this out.http://www.starquestclub.com/forums/viewto...&highlight= http://www.starquestclub.com/forums/viewto...ighlight=tokico 101 propose(mookeeh) is making pillow ball upper rear mounts for our cars already so that helps http://www.mookeeh.com/star.html but where i am really going with this is i think 240sx rear complete assemblies will work on our car with minimal fabrication.1) some light machine work or maybe something you could even do in your driveway on the rear arm pivot bottom to accept the through poly bushing.2) top is just 2 studs to drill holes for.....and aftermarket rear plate are very common! Rear pillow ball mounts are a good idea. They will allow for movement at the top of the strut. You don't need but one axis of movement though. They would be overkill, but its better than not enough movement. Here is a MUCH better solution that has been used before on old Zs, Volvos, XR4s, etc. http://www.arizonazcar.com/coilover.html You make a sleeve that slides over the stock strut. The tight tolerances between the sleeve and the strut tube will be able to handle the sideloads of the strut. This tube is welded on so it does not move up and down on the tube. The top half of the sleeve is threaded on the inside so that you can thread in dual height adjustable front 240SX aftermarket struts. Even better than the stock thickness strut shafts are the many 50mm struts that are out there or even inverted monotube struts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starion0352 Posted February 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 DJ how do those allow pivot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJpowerHaus Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 They have a pillow ball mount at the top and the hub has bushings on the bottom where it attaches to the lower A arm. A pivot in between these points would be the equivalent of kicking someones knees out when they are trying to stand up straight. You don't want pivot between the strut and the hub. That is the entire point of my post/rant. The CORE CONCEPT of the Starion's Chapman / MacPhearson suspension is that the hub is solidly mounted to the strut and does not pivot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starion0352 Posted February 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 They have a pillow ball mount at the top and the hub has bushings on the bottom where it attaches to the lower A arm. A pivot in between these points would be the equivalent of kicking someones knees out when they are trying to stand up straight. You don't want pivot between the strut and the hub. That is the entire point of my post/rant. The CORE CONCEPT of the Starion's Chapman / MacPhearson suspension is that the hub is solidly mounted to the strut and does not pivot. oh i didnt know you had a "rant"........you do agree there needs to be a pivot though i take it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJpowerHaus Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 Draw me a picture of where you'd like to put this pivot. Sometimes my posts come off as rants.. sometimes my rants come off as posts. I'm not to good at expressing my emotions online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starion0352 Posted February 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 Draw me a picture of where you'd like to put this pivot. Sometimes my posts come off as rants.. sometimes my rants come off as posts. I'm not to good at expressing my emotions online. i just think it should be consided when using fixed rear camber plates. other wise the rear arm is in a bind and the shocks and swaybars have more to overcome when they work. my idea is to use a 240 sx rear coilover for its bottom mount pivot. it would go here or the control armhttp://img99.imageshack.us/img99/2973/starion064mu5.th.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artinist Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 that setup on the Z is sweet. that makes a real coilover setup that has ride height adjustment from the bottom of the housing without messing with the springload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonestarion Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 to mount a shock/strut in that location and have a pivot point on the hub. "you would still have to make an adaptor of somesort." http://new.photos.yahoo.com/lonestarion/ph...8804255001866/0 being a pivot cant be located on the hub heres my alternative which will work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starion0352 Posted February 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 after studying the service manual again i have realize that the rear shock cant have a pivot mount to the hub carrier. it would allow the hub carrier to pivot all over the place. however i still want to know the outer diamete of the 240 rear strut. could it fit in the rear where a stock unit would? there is already i pivot to the arm wher the hub carrier is so........http://www.starquestclub.com/forums/viewto...p=527923#527923 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonestarion Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 its possible. i dont have 240 strut o.d. measurements but heres the measurement on starquest 2.071" +/- .002" i.d. of the opening on the rear hub. only problem you might incounter is the 240's are much shorter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starion0352 Posted February 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 its possible. i dont have 240 strut o.d. measurements but heres the measurement on starquest 2.071" +/- .002" i.d. of the opening on the rear hub. only problem you might incounter is the 240's are much shorter. really? what is the lenth of the assembly? and what is the o.d. of the strut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonestarion Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 stock quest front & rear arefront: 24.375" +/-.050"rear: 24.687" +/- .050" 240 measurements using teins18.5" front17.0" reari dont imagine stock 240's being much longer1.5"-2" longer at mostthe diameter info i dont have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starion0352 Posted February 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 stock quest front & rear are i dont imagine stock 240's being much longer1.5"-2" longer at mostthe diameter info i dont have. you just said they where shorter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonestarion Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 240's stocker are alot shorter than starquest. 5 or 6" in the front, 6-7" in the rear the 240 measurements i have are for the teins. in whichshould be no more than 1.5" -2" shorter then stock 240's.sorry if i didnt make it clear enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonestarion Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 240's stocker are alot shorter than starquest. 5 or 6" in the front, 6-7" in the rear the 240 measurements i have are for the teins. in whichshould be no more than 1.5" -2" shorter then stock 240's.sorry if i didnt make it clear enough.the struts in the pic you posted wont fit without radicaly modifing them. the front struts on 93 & up ford taurus,conture and similar cars might work on ours. though it only has 1 bolt to fasten it with. take a look http://new.photos.yahoo.com/lonestarion/ph...8804255184079/0 http://new.photos.yahoo.com/lonestarion/ph...8804255160833/1 it looks very close in length. not sure on the diameter though. didnt have anything to measure it with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starion0352 Posted February 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 the first link doesnt work...and the second is just a junkyard pic of a strut housing sitting up against a tire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonestarion Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 check it again. struts is from a ford taurus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starion0352 Posted February 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 check it again. struts is from a ford taurus fords taurus doesnt have the aftermaket like the better and more available mr-2 inserts.........i dont see many ford taurus coilover set ups if you know what i mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonestarion Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 when i venture to salvage yards i walk through the whole yard and look at everything. its possible with a few mods these would work. if anyone intended to use something other than???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starion0352 Posted March 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 when i venture to salvage yards i walk through the whole yard and look at everything. its possible with a few mods these would work. if anyone intended to use something other than???? huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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