zactek Posted September 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2003 I see what you're saying, PureInsanity. You basically left the mount in the same place, except you changed the location of the hole that the strut nut mounts on, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pure_insanity Posted September 27, 2003 Report Share Posted September 27, 2003 ok, im not an artist so this is pretty sketchy, i hope itll help explain what i did. its really simple, but hard to explain without we were looking at a car. or at least i dont know how to explain. http://home.villagephotos.com/2003-9/26195/Sep_27_001.jpg hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zactek Posted September 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2003 I kinda get what you did to the body, just not sure about the mount; ??? you cut it right above the upper spring perch and flipped it upside down? YOU ACTUALLY did this to the car or this is just on paper?? : I can't believe that mount was able to move ANYWHERE (slotting and cutting holes or not), maybe it's different on mine, ??? I've got a flatbody. And you adjusted camber by loosening the 3 mount bolts and moved the whole mount on the body? I'm intrigured, I still want Artinist's plates, excelt he hasn't gotten back to me :'( :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANGO Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 Ok, weekend came and went and squared away Sunday for the install of the plates, brace, struts, and springs, all brand new by the way. This was just for the rear as I'm still waiting for the antiMpower front camber plates. My installation experience: I started from 8:30 AM and finished at 12:30 noon just for the rears. Engage the bolts to the plates if you can!!!! This will save you a LOT of time and effort!!! By engage, what I mean is, find some way to attach the bolts to the plates by themselves, without the accompanying nuts. By doing this, it's almost like having another set of hands. Have them tack welded or any kind of welding suitable for aluminum, just a small tack, maybe two or three locations per bolt. Don't know how well JB Weld sticks to the aluminum's shiny smooth surface though. Artinist's plates are very well done and superb and I also know why the bolts came loose and unattached to the plates, this so he can offer us these items for a steal of a price as engaging the bolts to the plates would hike up the price I'm sure. There are a couple of things that will work against you if you leave the bolts loose til you finally fasten them down with the nuts. When the whole strut set up is being jammed up the shock tower, you will not have any finger room to hold and push the bolt through the plate and past the shock tower frame, this especially with the bolt that you cannot see which is behind the top spring perch. You will not get to that one and if you do, when you push it up, there better be somebody up top to pull it out and screw the nut on. Otherwise, it will not stay up when you let go of it after you've struggled to push it through. The other problem with this is when you tighten the nut, the bolt turns along with it and there's no way to grab it from underneathe since there's no space for even your fingers to hold it, and even if you're able to hold it with your fingers, the torque of your wrench will overpower your fingers and the bolt will eventually turn with the nut in the same direction. That is why you need to engage the bolts, for this very same reason! You cannot hold the rest of the bolt along its stem with a vice grip while you turn the nut on it as the vice grip will chew on the bolt's threads and totally loose the bolt at this point and strip it. Even if you get past this, you will encounter the same problem when removing them, no way for anything to hold on to the bolt's head that's under the shock tower at this point. I used Super Glue the night before, very generous amounts of it. I glued the bolt and any other washers that needed to be in place that will get buried under the shock tower, plate, obstructed by the top spring perch, etc. that I knew I won't be able to get to with my hands once the set up is up there. The glue got me through the driver's side set up when I was replacing the whole thing. The bolts didn't come undone and they actually stayed as part of the plate. Even when I was tightening it down and torquing the nuts on to the bolts, I was surprised that the bolts didn't give and start turning with the nut!!!! :o I was relieved but more so I was impressed by the holding power of this glue I used! I wasn't very lucky with the passenger side though. One of the bolts had come undone and it was the one that was directly behind the spring perch, the one I couldn't see! I banged it on the way up as I was pushing the strut up and I wasn't about to pull it out again since I already had the other two bolts in. I figured, 2 out of 3 in ain't so bad so I'll just work the last one in. Needless to say I had to spend a good hour trying to align it properly and shove it up the hole, all this while I couldn't see it. Didn't have the luxury of reserve power on my arms to yank the whole thing back down and out and re-glue the one bolt, and even if I did, not enough time in the day would've made the glue up weak unless I had to let it sit overnight which I didn't have the option of having. Here are the good points on the installation though, the good stuff!!!!! ;D ;D ;D The ride is no more stiffer or harder than it was before. There was no noticeable added hardness or harshness on the ride, as far as I'm concerned, it was still a comfortable ride for me, quite a lot better ride actually! I did not have to make any additional slotting to any of the holes in the shock tower. I actually have ample room on the side with the narrowest gap, more than what I expected. That's good! ;D ;D ;D The way I went about degreeing the camber, at least temporarily, to the closest I could get it was a variation of the process DJPowerHaus had outlined. I did have the car on a flat level surface and with a carpenter's level, I stood the level vertical and used that as a point of reference to match the edge line of the level with that of the leading edge of the tire/wheel. Pretty much the same thing DJPowerHaus has mentioned, using a plumb bob but I ended up using a level instead. With the top and bottom of the tire/wheel perfectly parallel to the level, I went and tightened the nut and that was that. The fact that I had brand new tires also helped with this process as I know the new tires are pretty much tight still and am sure had even surface all the way around its face. This was actually pretty simple to do, not bad for impromptu degreeing. This will suffice til I get the car to a shop for alignment and proper camber adjustment. Zac!!! Another novel!!! But I hope this was helpful this time!!! ;) MANGO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pure_insanity Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 yup, you got it. i had a pretty fair amount of room to move the entire strut assy outwards just loosen the 3 bolts and move it out. yea i was concerned about the body being weakened so i used the old strut mount and cut the bearing section off. then turn it upside down and it becomes a neat looking reinforcement to hide all those nasty cut marks.ive actually done this although i havent actually been to the alignment shop so i cant say how well i have done, but all my home measurements say im right on the money. i dont know if there are any differences in the wide and narrow body cars. the best i can tell they just have different fenders and panels. for the most part they appear the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zactek Posted September 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 MANGO: A novel it is!!! ;D Thanks a lot, I'm not too far behind, springs and struts and bars are on the way, BUT I've heard NOTHING from Artinist, I'm trying to order the plates, but he just won't get in touch with me, I REALLY want those plates!!! > It's really cool of you to give the heads-up on the install, I've been going over it in my head, and it's pretty much what you described, but now you confirmed it I gotta get my hands on some of that Super GLUE.LOL I'm really happy to hear that the ride is not harsh, right now my whole rear bottoms out and feels like a wet noodle back there, can't wait!! When you were setting the camber, was the car off the ground or on? ??? PureInsanity: I'm glad there's an alternative for other people to know about as far as camber adjustment. As for me, I've got a little extra $$$ right now so I'm gonna go with the plates, if Artinist ever gets back to me :, he seems to be really busy lately with a lot of projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pure_insanity Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 yes there is an alternative out there. however it is not for the faint of heart as it requires some pretty deep cutting that isnt easily reversible. so if your not entirely sure of yourself i definetly recommend going with the plates. matter of fact i recommend the plates either way. but for those of you that are a little more adventurous and are prepared to accept the potential for consequences then it is a viable alternative. and as i had said earlier, if you have the tools and knowledge, it shouldnt cost you anything, just time. im a body man and fabricater by trade, so if this had went wrong its no real matter to me to cut out the strut tower and replace it with a new one. i do this type thing every day. so even if things had went wrong it wasnt a matter to me, im glad to say it has worked well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANGO Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 Zac, Yeah, stay on him, Art tends to get really busy and it gets to be a while for him to get back to you. I was double emailing him within the board and also at his earthlink one just so I could track him down. The Super Glue, man, sounds silly but whatever kind of bonding agent you can get, those will be your second pair of hands on there! The way I had the wheels when I adjusted the camber was they were slightly touching the ground but without the whole weight of the car on it, just enough so the wheels won't turn. I set camber and then bring the whole weight down and then check it again. Pretty simple. Good luck and let us know how it goes! MANGO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boosthead Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 I wonder, short of going to a shop that specializes in camber degreeing, is there anyway for us DIY-ers to accurately degree the cambers as close to zero with perhaps a simple tool that we're not aware of? Too bad Art couldnt machine a small reference mark on the camber plate for the stock location and maybe +/- .5 or 1 degree. I'm sure that would add to the price though and most Quest owners are super cost conscious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANGO Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 I just thought about this after the fact. A good way to engage the bolts (if you really wanted to do it as clean and as professional anyway) rather than using "Krazy Glue" would be to helicoil the holes on the plate. Aluminum isn't that hard and I'm sure the holes can be helicoiled easily by hand, thread in the stainless sleeve (which we all know is bulletproof) and then spin in the bolts, voila! instant ironclad grip, no fear of it coming off as you torque down the nuts up top. I'm sure this would be the cheaper route than having the bolts tack welded. You'd only have to get the next size bolts up and the bolts and nut themselves would be cheaper still compared to tack welding. Just a thought, no novel this time! MANGO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artinist Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 sorry guys, i just saw this thread. on top of that, i was out of town over the weekend. I will keep an eye on this in case you have other questions. after reading most of the stuff i thought i suggest something for making it easier to install. if you get one of those cheap wrenches you see at swapmeets and such, get one the proper size and just bend the top so it looks like an "L", this way you can get it inbetween the spring perch and the plate so you can hold the screw while tightening it. you can't do this with highquality wrenches since they will most likely break before they bend. I also wouldn't suggest ovalizing the 3 stock mouting holes to get more space to adjust camber using the stock rubber isolater. there just isn't enough room around the isolator to move, plus the top of the chassis where the isolater/camber plate mounts, begins to curve if you move it more than 1/4" in either direction. and 1/4" just isn't going to create enough of a change in camber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zactek Posted September 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 MANGO: That's a pretty good idea about the Helicoiling, BUT the kits for that (wrench, helicoils, tap and drill) aren't cheap; $35 or more depending where you get them. I would just get the next size up bolts and thread the plate itself, I've got pleny of taps ;D I wonder what kind of bolts Artinist supplies with the plates; SAE or metric? I dunno, maybe it's too much and whatever glue/epoxy I'll get would be enough, after all, it's just gotta hold until you get the strut assembly into the body and tighten the nuts......... : I'm probably gonna silicone or use a thin rubber washer between the plate and the body to prevent any moisture from entering the interior. ARTINIST: The bent wrench idea is pretty good, too, I might look into that; what size head is on the bolts you provide with the plate? ??? Thanks! 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artinist Posted September 30, 2003 Report Share Posted September 30, 2003 hmm, thats a great idea. on my next batch i will have the holes threaded with the proper size so you can just screw then in first. the bolts i am using are 3/8", metric stuff is expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANGO Posted September 30, 2003 Report Share Posted September 30, 2003 alright!!! ;D ;D ;D Art, any chance that can be done for the front ones? If not, that's ok too MANGO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artinist Posted September 30, 2003 Report Share Posted September 30, 2003 the fronts do not have access issue since the diamter of the plate is about 7 inches. but even on the rears, after you screw the bolt into the plate first, you may still have to hold it with a wrench or else when you tighten the nut, it may back spin and loosen the bolt. by the way, if you have coilovers, this job takes 5 minutes. ;D i am trying to put together a coilover kit for less than $200. hopefully less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zactek Posted October 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 Just thought of something else; how about using C-clips (circlips??) on the bolts? Just find the right size and snap em on! They wouldn't keep the bolt from turning, but would hold it until you get the strut assembly into the body. Probably the simplest, cheapest, quickest way. 8) ARTINIST: How's the front plates coming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zactek Posted October 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 I have another question: when you set the camber in the rear, how can you do it with the tires off the ground? Is it even possible??? Or, if you do it with the tires on the ground, how much gas do you have in the gas tank? I'm assuming a full or half-empty tank would make a difference on how high or low the car is sitting, enough to offset camber a few degrees.(???) Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANGO Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Well, when I did mine with the ghetto way (carpenter's level) I had the nut for the strut snug a little bit, and based on the bubble on the level, I'd nudge the tire a bit til the bubble was level. I'd then tighten the nut a bit more, check for any movement of camber, tighten nut again and so on. I did this while the tire was off the ground. You can do this even with the tire touching the ground, just a bit though, touch it down enough so the tire doesn't spin and don't bring down the whole weight of the car on it, at least not yet. Then you can push and pull on the wheel to set camber and then tighten the nut. When you've finally lowered the whole car, check for any changes in the bubble. For anyone just reading this thread, please don't ask me about the physics of this method as I've said before, it's a ghetto way of doing it and a temporary til the car gets degree'd properly at a certified alignment shop. With that said, hey Art, are the fronts still slated for mid November like you mentioned last? Man, I'm itchin' to get those from you, I'm sure I'm rippin' chunks off of the front tires at light speed here the more I drive it everyday. By the way, read your post on the BMW board, good one!!! ;D ;D ;D MANGO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artinist Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 yes mid november for the fronts and hopefully sooner for the coilovers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Phil Posted November 26, 2003 Report Share Posted November 26, 2003 Hello, Just wondering the status on those front camber plates. Are they good to go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artinist Posted November 26, 2003 Report Share Posted November 26, 2003 sorry, its a week or two behind schedule, i am at the mercy of the machine shop since I am supposedly getting a deal, i don't have immediate priority. i will get the prototypes any day now and after I test fit them, going to production only should take another so hang in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Phil Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 so uh, how are the coilovers and camber plates coming? (im very anxious, sorry to ask twice in a row.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artinist Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 coilovers are sitting here looking at me I will put the up on the for sale section next week. camber plates will be another week or so. sorry about the delay, I have been a bit busy getting a few things straightened with my own car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Phil Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 Awsome, cant wait to buy them! working on your car....YOU KNOW OUR CARS ARE SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabattle Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Art, What's up, just read your thread, how can I get some plates and coilovers? jb I have the stock setup, your setup sounds like the best choice for an 87 TSI, help me out. thx. jb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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