gofastredstar Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) Hi all. Hey I have a FIP system installed, and while its not MPI, I have another car that is FIP'ed and is MPI. I have no tuning issues with it, but this throttle body car has given me problems. I figured somebody here could help out. Here is the issue, really the car runs good, and I am just knit picking issues but I have an area on the map that is rich all the time. I have tuned and tuned and tuned and cant seem to get it out. The scenario is when I shift gears, and the rmps drop, immediately after getting back into the throttle, regardless of the amount it goes 10.0 on the afrs for just a sec. I have messed with the acc enrichments quite a bit, and the decel enrichments as well with no luck. So, when back into the throttle the engine is massive rich and wont excel for a sec. Here is a pict of the log so you can see what I am talking about. Thanks for the help. http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2709/4133087999_b9edf09935_o.jpg Here i moved the cursor over and circled the area I am talking about. Notice how rich it is. http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2551/4133118527_98a73b93b1_o.jpg Edited November 25, 2009 by gofastredstar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahjah Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 can you post a msq? it sounds like accel enrichments... does it buck or do anything like that? or just puff some extra fuel for a split sec? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 What if you lean it out all along that lowest load row. when you are at zero throttle and higher rpm, you can probably put fuel at nearly zero, or even at zero. I see it's low already, but maybe that can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahjah Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 What if you lean it out all along that lowest load row. when you are at zero throttle and higher rpm, you can probably put fuel at nearly zero, or even at zero. I see it's low already, but maybe that can help.it sounds like you are probably talking about basicly building over run protection into the VE table. does the FIP have the "Over run" option as a selectable menu? back when i had the FC1 controller i had to build it into my map like technology suggests and it seemed to work just fine. any chance you can post a msq and datalog? i'd like to see where your VE table moves around to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowquest Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Your PW spike just before your circled area leads me to believe that either accel enrichment is way too high, or for some reason it's hitting a part of the map that spikes it. As said, a datalog and msq would help diagnoisis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pure_insanity Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 sort of makes me think about ego correction. like the ego corr. is reacting to the change so fast that it loads it up when you go to zero throttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gofastredstar Posted November 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Constants...... http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2664/4135497621_644d1ce358_o.jpg Enrichments..... http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2582/4136258058_7708fe84b8_o.jpg Thanks for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahjah Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 When it spikes like that, what is your EGO correction at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gofastredstar Posted November 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 When it spikes like that, what is your EGO correction at? Err, dunno, where do I check that? Stupid full from to much turkey to research it. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahjah Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 can you post your MSQ and datalog? pretty much everyone is guessing until thats posted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gofastredstar Posted November 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 can you post your MSQ and datalog? pretty much everyone is guessing until thats posted... Sure can. Here is the map.... map and the log.... log I've uploaded these to mediafire, this is new to me so let me know if ya have any probs. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowquest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 (edited) VE analyze shows quite a bit of changes on that. I'm suspecting fuel puddling in the intake, but that's just a guess at this point. ETA: will the FIP do EGO correction? For some reason, I was thinking you couldn't even input a afr table on that system Edited November 27, 2009 by slowquest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gofastredstar Posted November 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Fuel Puddling in the intake? Hmm, hadnt thought of that. You might be on to something there. If thats the case, there is nothing I can do about it I suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahjah Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 VE analyze shows quite a bit of changes on that. I'm suspecting fuel puddling in the intake, but that's just a guess at this point. ETA: will the FIP do EGO correction? For some reason, I was thinking you couldn't even input a afr table on that systemhah thats the same thing i was looking at, but yah.... i don't think it will. you can watch the EGO in the data log and its way off. I'm thinking it might just be a bi-product of using such a small VE table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahjah Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 A friend who REALLY know his Megasquirt had this to say Looking at the log, as he shifts and gets back into throttle, most of the time there is an accel enrich spike causing the super rich condition. He could try raising his TPS-Dot threshold % a little, and lowering this accel bins a little. Also there are times where it goes just as rich when there is no accel enrichment. His issue is a combination of both VE table and accel enrichments. I would have him turn off his accel enrichments by setting the TPS-Dot to something ridiculous high like 500%. Then get the VE table as close as possible in the areas it hits during his shifts and try to get that rich area out as best as he can, since the accel enrichments only add to (or take away for decel enrich) from the current calculated pulse width. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gofastredstar Posted November 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Man, some super tuning knowledge on here. Much thanks. Goes to show, I have two cars that run FIP, tuned with MS, for over 4 years now and I still dont know sheet about tuning. As you can see by my file names I am trying to get a good driveability tune. 100% throttle for the dyno is easy by comparison. A friend and I tuned this on the dyno for max power, and got 11.8 all the way across, but LOL, I could hardly drive the thing home after that. So looking at my map above, your saying make the tpsdot something like 5.0, and make all the accel enrichments 0 then just adjust the ve table? Sounds simple enough, but my concern is not having any accel enrichments, and that I would have to tune for any/all throttle responses. If thats the case, just run the car off ve tuning only? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahjah Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Man, some super tuning knowledge on here. Much thanks. Goes to show, I have two cars that run FIP, tuned with MS, for over 4 years now and I still dont know sheet about tuning. As you can see by my file names I am trying to get a good driveability tune. 100% throttle for the dyno is easy by comparison. A friend and I tuned this on the dyno for max power, and got 11.8 all the way across, but LOL, I could hardly drive the thing home after that. So looking at my map above, your saying make the tpsdot something like 5.0, and make all the accel enrichments 0 then just adjust the ve table? Sounds simple enough, but my concern is not having any accel enrichments, and that I would have to tune for any/all throttle responses. If thats the case, just run the car off ve tuning only?you wanna make your tps dot like 49.8 to disable accel enrichments. that way the MS will only run after the VE table. You are only tuning on a completely warmed up motor right? I think the problem you are having is that your VE table is not tuned very well and the accel enrichments are acting as a crutch making the car drive better. so if you dial in your VE table... you can THEN work on your accel enrich to make the car act as it should. and yeah you will have to be slow on the throttle. b/c you will not have any AE. and you will probably need a friend to drive or tune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macrophage Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 It looks like his Req Fuel is too high, he needs to bring it own to about 4.0 or 4.2 im on 4.0 with a s16g and its rich sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gofastredstar Posted November 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Im running a 19c so my required fuel might be a bit more, but probably not really. I can bump that down easy enough. What I will do is change the tpsdot and remove all the ae and leave the ve table as it is. I daily drive this thing to work and datalog each trip. It wont take long to get the ve table narrowed in. And since its daily driving, I typically don't romp in it much. Oh occasionally of course, thats what the turbos for! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahjah Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 (edited) Don't try adjusting the Req Fuel to tune the car. you should set your req.fuel accordingly and never mess with it again unless you change injector size. Turbo size has nothing to do with your Req fuel. your req fuel is what every other fuel calculation is based off. Edited November 27, 2009 by jahjah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gofastredstar Posted November 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Don't try adjusting the Req Fuel to tune the car. you should set your req.fuel accordingly and never mess with it again unless you change injector size. Turbo size has nothing to do with your Req fuel. your req fuel is what every other fuel calculation is based off. What I did to get it running for the first time is put like 8.0 in required fuel, fired it up it it would and then brought req fuel down to what got it to idle best. I didn't run the required fuel wizard, or whatever its called. So the setting might be off, but once it idled good, then I messed with the ve table. The way I see it you could put in any value in req fuel the adjust the ve table. Dunno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowquest Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 On the required fuel, you want it to be a number that lets your lowest ve table cell be as high as possible, while making sure that your highest cell is as low as possible. The highest possible number in your lowest cell gives you the best resolution to tune from, IE: lets say your lowest cell number is 50, and your just a little bit rich there (interpolation will have some effect on this, but we'll just use one cell here to keep it simple) if you lower that number by 5, you've lowered it 10%, and still have a lot of adjustment left (45), now if that number were 5, the least you could adjust it would be 20% (or 1 number, down to 4) which would then only leave you with 25% adjustment values left. It's just best to have a decent number there to start with, and that's what required fuel gives you the chance to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pure_insanity Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Don't try adjusting the Req Fuel to tune the car. you should set your req.fuel accordingly and never mess with it again unless you change injector size. Turbo size has nothing to do with your Req fuel. your req fuel is what every other fuel calculation is based off. set your req fuel to what it should be, then if its lower than you have it at now, you can always scale the ve table by one or 2 points. to get you back to where you have good afrs. and like said, dont mess with req fuel after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gofastredstar Posted November 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 set your req fuel to what it should be, then if its lower than you have it at now, you can always scale the ve table by one or 2 points. to get you back to where you have good afrs. and like said, dont mess with req fuel after that. Yea, I don't mess with the required fuel after the initial startup and good idle. From there I only adjust the ve table. If a bit rich, then I adjust the area that the "bouncing ball" is in. And when I started this thread about the rich area of the map, tech suggested lowering that area on the bottom row to zero. There is already quite a dip in the values, but I saw the "bouncing ball" in this area was rich while i was driving. Changing those values to zero or zeroing out the excel enrichments and making the tpsdot 50 are two options I will be trying out Monday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gofastredstar Posted December 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Was re-reading this again, I still dont know anything about ego correction. I can find anything related in MS 2.25. I have tried making tpsdot 49.0 and zeroed out ae but still rich. I am leaning towards just learning to live with it. I have also brought the values down on the first row of the ve table to 4. Overall the car runs good, its just this issue that has me stumped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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