Joel

I garuntee you'll spend as much as a standalone swapping in another cars harness. There are many hidden costs, and unless you do it yourself the labor will be attrotious. I personally would NOT do it. I have a buddy with a 240sx with SR20DET swap, and we wish he had gone standalone while he was doing it (he had to swap ecu/wiring harnesses anyway). Joel

I do, and you can post to it on your own without my intervention. Others are welcome to use it as they see fit... thats why its there. You type your numbers in, and you can upload a pic of the dynosheet. You can add as many as you like. Joel

Yeah, except that RWD is better than AWD in the long run. For 12s or for stop light to stop light, AWD kicks a**. Throw on some 25 dollar/peice tires and you got garunteed 1.8 short times. If you can put some good low torque down and get a 1.4 short time or lower, you front tires aren't even touching the ground... AWD doesn't really help you there much. Joel

Torque is indeed what you feel. HP is still power over time, frequency if you will. 300 ft/lbs of torque at a frequency of 5000 vs a frequency of 7000. Which does more? 7000! BUT: If you have HIGH HP (high rpm torque) and no low end to get there, you will never gear up to that level. Torque is required to pull you to that location in the RPM band. You will feel torque, and horsepower will multiply that feeling. But Peak numbers are definately just a salesmens friend only. Higher averages are where one should aim. Joel

Thats assuming load wasn't enough in 3rd gear. If max positive pressure was attainable in 3rd gear, 3rd gear pulls would multiply the torque at more. Dyno a Civic DX on a dynojet in 1st gear, and you'll come up with some WICKED numbers! Joel

There is no availible proof that CNM's claims (or even TEPs claims) are true. You can get to the 12s on the TBI and a 20G, but it _REQUIRES_ lead. Joel

High 12's on pump are not impossible... but are improbable. There is no record of anyone being able to accomplish this yet. the DSMs and WRX "guys" have better designed cylinder heads (2 more values, quench area, and a more up-to-date chamber design for boost). We have catch up to do before we get to them. I would do ALOT of research before you just start throwing big money parts like big turbos, huge injectors, MPI, and all the sorts. I will GARUNTEE if thats what you do, in 2 years you will be disappointed, and you will sell the car, pissed off with empty pockets. I suggest you read up, and watch and learn from some of the others experiances here. With that said... Our displacement should let is TOUCH the 12s... *IF* we can get it to make power above 4000RPM worth a damn. Still may require lead. Joel

Kevin, You have any idea where to get a Degree wheel and a dial bore gauge thats optimal for degreeing on an OHC motor? Also... I'm not quiet seeing this offset bushing thing, is there an example somewhere where I could get a better idea of what you mean? Joel

I was thinking, maybe we could just slot out sotck gear, and tap threads into the cam where the pin usually goes. Mark where the Pin is now as "0", mark out up to 7 degrees both directions, have a slot machined in between those marks. Then upon cam installation, drill/tap threads, degree your cam, and set it where it needs to go. Looks like there is 38 teeth on this cam gear, giving about 9.47 degrees per tooth... So if you needed somehow to go higher then 7degrees in either direction, you jump it a tooth and then dial forward or back from there in the slot. Joel

I've been looking for (over the past few weeks) a good cam degreeing kit for OHC motors. Anyone got some leads on a good kit at a reasonable price? I completely agree with your machinist. Sounds like a good man. My motor is going together with all specs in known order. Measuring every peice. I don't want any unknowns. Joel

Bill's rods are perhaps custom, but they don't destroke it from what I can tell... it's still a "2.6". I wouldn't imagine custom billet rods being a performance modification, more of a safety modification. The weight loss wouldn't add HP. It can't. It would make the motor accelorate faster with the same power. Thats like saying a flywheel makes HP. It doesn't, and its worth nothing on a dyno pull. It's worth something in real life acceloration. Which is also another thing. Dyno's are not the end all to performance. They are just notable graphs to give ideas. What I would really like to see is some dyno pulls from Tim C, I wanna know what his Cams are doing and if they are helping. I don't think the butt dyno is doing justice for anyone at this point. Lizzord also needs to take his T3/T4 to the dyno. I wanna see that turbo is doing. Joel

all that Higher octane is going to do is let you advance more and let you run more boost. We can already see what more timing at 15psi (on your dyno) does, it still drops off. 15psi should flow enough. If it drops off, it not because of an aur deficiency from the turbo. 15psi should net you AT LEAST 280whp. I think its: A) Cam Cam Timing C) Turbo exhaust housing D) Cylinder head flow is s*** Joel

The lower case is better, IMO, I just don't believe you NEED to be lower compression. I think you should aim around 7.5:1 - 8.2:1 area. You won't notice much difference in that range anyway. Remember, you CAN have pistons machined to lower compression spec too. So if you end up with 8:1 pistons and shave/mill/deck things you can have a machinist take out material (as long as they don't exceed the specs on the piston. There are usually markings inside the skirt that will tell them what they can do). Joel

Heres another take, Along those same lines as Tim. a 6:1 motor will not spin a big turbo. Period. You'll have to raise your redline, and run a bottle to get the most out of it. A 6 or 7:1 motor is not going to solve the dive, and theres no need to raise the boost to offset that deficiency, as the turbo size and amount of boost is not exactly going to solve that. 15psi on a T4 or a 16G on this motor are going to flow identically, and likely on a "Super huge" turbo, more heat will be produced at 15psi. On a lower compression motor, you will need to increase timing to get the most out of it. Spark-knock deficiencies will likely increase, therefore the need for leaded gas stays similar. End gasas will cause detonation. I think some of you might find that a 6:1 motor for instance, will likely INCREASE the threshold of detonation on lower octane fuels. 7:1 is a decent place to be, however There is still no need for it. End gasas will likely be less, especially due to lack of quench area, the lower compression you go. That again increases the amount of possible spark knock issues. As far as Mike's issues, you cannot even come close to a determination that fuel octane was even an issue, as the car wasn't getting correct AFR's for it. Likewise, since the SDS doesn't allow datalogging, we don't even know if theres an issue with a trigger not working right, a sensor reporting incorrectly, or some other issue. I'm not knocking the SDS here, but it's definatly a BIG thing to have a datalogger on a car your trying to get high power out of.... I know I've used it MANY times to point to the issue at hand... even if its not the computer causing the issue, something spits out an odd number and you know where to look. Chip, I take my statement back that we dont know HOW it'll run. We already know how it will run... pretty much the same, unless something drastically changes. Oh, and I'm 22, I've got another year of experiance with alcoholic beverages than you want to give me credit for, damnit! hah. I think 15psi on the street is all you need. Mike has DEFINATELY proved that with his setup. Now lets move on to WHY torque falls off at 4krpms... no matter what Mike decides to do, it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings I dont think... and I think he's should do whatever he feels he needs to... lower compression or not. My Opinion is: Lower compression is not needed, and 8:1 will run better on the street, and will continue to spool a better turbo. I also believe that it will run better on pump gas with less detonation. Joel

Well, Funny thing is I've read all these articles (and many more) that Chip is posting over 2 years ago. Not trying to prove that I am older and wiser, or if I really know anything at all... But I happen to agree with Tim C. I do not believe Mike's motor was blown by detonation (even the machinist told him he was running to much timing). That would not have been very adjustable by adding leaded gas, as leaded gasoline won't cool it down much more than unleaded. Octane rating has little to do with heat (although lead does help cool it down a tad). If you research all the "fast" DSM's, for instance, they all usually run 8.5:1 from the 2g motor in their 1g block and 1g big rods. Reason: 7.8:1 on 2.0L won't spool a FP green or FP red without a bottle attached. Likewise, these "street cars" just wont pull around on a large turbo real easy. I think, personally Mike, you would be heading the wrong way going to 7.0:1. You are attempting to change your entire setup it seems, and you have no idea if it's going to work. Make small changes.... Or wait until some of the rest of us catch up and see what we do... I state that as I realize were not all made of money (like myself), so maybe we need to take turns figuring it all out. I don't see how 7:1 compression will fix anything to do with your drop off at 4k, and if it continued to climb at 15psi past 4k, you would be in the 300-340HP range!! Thats better than a DSM and they have 500-1000rpm more revs (sometimes more if they raise it). I think concentrating on making the power you want doesn't need to be done by more boost. We have a big motor, we only need so much assitance from boost. To much is a bad thing, low or high compression. So if you switch to 7.0:1, you'll have slightly less hp per lb of boost, but your power will still drop off at 4k. Not only that, but when you bore over .060, a 7:1 piston will likely be closer to 7.5:1, so you'd have to measure everything and have custom 1 off pistons made. Irregardless of all that, if you read those articles more and more, static compression is a number that is almost useless... dynamic compression is adjustable by boost, cam, and the like. Even an exhaust system has effects on that. Joel

Personally, as been said before, I think it was heat (no detonation)... I think you had to much timing into it for a 13:1 AFR... very hot. My buddies FC rx7 did the same thing at 13.5:1, heard no detonation... just heard the rotor go (apex seal broke)... Joel

I think the puff of smoke came from the fact that there was pressure in the cylinder, and what was contaminating the cylinder was getting immediately burned off. Let off the gas and you fill it up and smoke it out. Joel

Bill... What in your opinion is causing Mike's drop off at 4k on the Aussie intake? Joel

Bill, What did it for you on getting this car to move up in the upper rev range (4000-6500RPM).. was it the cam, the exhaust housing on the turbo, or a combo? Or something else? Joel

I've asked that question many times of SDS and Haltech, both can't tell me how the mechanizm works inside to allow that, but they claim on a distributor you have the same adjustability. Maybe some day I'll find that answer. I still am wondering. Irregardless, thats another reason I'm happy to move to DIS. I don't have to worry about a dist. Joel

What happens on a Hawk/SDS/Haltech etc is all about the triggers. Same as a stock ECU with timing control (or in our case stock ECU w/ ignition control knock box). The computer see's signals from a trigger (In Mikes case an F1 style trigger with 2 North pole magnets and a hall effect optical sensor). The sensor will report back each trigger. You place a magnet X amount of degrees (On the F1 I believe between 50-70 degrees BTDC) and the other magnet is 180 degrees out. On mine, I will have 3 (one sync south pole magnet) which goes in between the last north pole and TDC. Just gives a tad more accuracy. Now the computer sees the signal and knows the rpm. Based of those two figures, you have adjustability up to ~ 40-45D BTDC. All the computer needs to know is "Where am I" every once in awhile and "How fast am I" from the tach signal. The computer then mathematically "guesses" where to send an ignition spark, and generally is +/- 2-3Deg. of that mark. If you have 3 magnets like me, you more likely to be a TAD more accurate.. but the difference is still maybe 2hp on a good tuning session. The Cam is my concern. I'm ready to not even install the 284H cam I have and go for something else if I'm gonna get pulls to 4k and drop like a rock. I don't care how much boost I was to run (just like Mike K here), your HP output SUCKS, torque is up, but theres still no go fast power (even with a margin of error of a dyno in general). I don't want to have to run REAL high boost to pull some numbers at the track. My goal here (like I'm sure alot of others here) is to indeed pull the most out of the lowest amount of boost possible. Based on Mike's numbers, if a Cam change is needed, to get that same HP we all should be able to change a cam on a pretty stock motor and get within 30HP of his numbers... So really, something is up. As far are fuel pressure is concerned, Mike has his info right from SDS. Fuel pressure is NOT where you want to go. Get your base pressure between 30-45psi. Thats it, No RRFPR or BCFPR. Reason why: Try to tune a good map on variable flowing injectors. Your maps will be F'd. Your injectors flow X amount at 3000RPM, and flow MORE at 5000RPM, as much as a 10-30% difference in a 20psi raise in pressure. Try to make your maps gradiant right now? hehe, not gonna be real easy, so now you have to make a hopping map (goes up and down). Can be done, but almost impossible to get right. I would however do a 1:1 BCFPR like the stock one. Reason: To match the pressures in the manifold. If you increase manifold pressure by 10psi (stock), but leave fuel pressure alone, the pressure differential between the two is going to be less. You will get less fuel flow. Matching pressure to pressure will keep flow even. Joel

Let us not forget that you will need more fuel volume on alcohol. It brings its own oxygen, so to keep the AFRs up you will need larger injection for the same air volume in the motor. I keep asking myself the cam question too... I have a 284 Mechnical cam (for a mechnical drivetrain) and it will piss me off to see it drop at 4k on that cam. I'm wondering if your machinist/cam grinder will be able to sell the cams at an economical price? Also, if they need a test dummy for the cam, I'll gladly swap cams and dyno on a mechanical setup to see what it'll do, I'll do it. Don't care if I get anything for free, I'll buy a good working powerful cam if the schnieder ends up to be s***. I did notice the cam Bill was running, and had questions about that myself (wondering how much better it is over a schnieder) I would like to hurry up and get my parts all in and built to see what this thing does... I will say I'll be disappointed if I run into that 4k drop even with only a 16G. I expect to see 240HP or so on pump gas, thats what I want out of this turbo. Joel

BTW: The studdering can be a rich or lean condition. If it studders and seems to go no where, its likely lean. If it studders and wants to slow down, its likely rich (bogging down). Joel

Thats the reason I posted it... I wanted to see what others feel/think/see. If I have issues getting mine to pull to redline hard on my 16G, I may be asking you some questions on your setup etc. Load goes up in each gear. Stopped your gear ratio multiplies the torque out, and load is minimal to power requirements to move X weight with X drag at X speed. As you go up in gears, load increases (higher gear, less torque multiplication, more drag). Another example of this is the reason why you test a car in a high gear going up a hill after playing with the fuel or ignition systems. You are more prone to detonate due to the high load. When you tune your car, you should do so as much as you can in 4th gear. Thats the close 1:1 ratio of the gears, and a good gear to get your car loaded up. Fuel requirements will go up due to the increase in resistance. Best thing to do is tune you maps on flat land in 4th gear (empty road). You need to tune for your lowest load point and your highest load point, and gradiant the rest in between. No jumps or hopping around. On the haltech thats pretty easy, because each RPM map there are graphical bars... when all is said and done it should look like a slope (small bar to high bar). I would tune the car overly rich at first, choose one load point and one high point. Tune those 2 load bars. Then smooth out inbetween. Copy all those load bars to every last RPM map. Add 5-10% fuel as RPMs increase for safety. Tune each rpm independantly. Now tune up the ignition map to farther optimize. Fine tune each RPM map after your done with the ignition map. Joel

After having a conversation with Glen he had said Mike K's dyno at 15psi looked similar to his dyno on his To4. That turbo was to small (not on the compressor side), but on the exhaust side. Apprently, somehow(don't know how scientifically it was done), he discovered that a larger exhaust housing would indeed help in power output. According to him, his findings, and the other guys in Aussie that he's worked with, the head flows alot on the exhaust side, and requires a decently sized Exhaust A/r.. something an 8cm2 20G still doesn't have enough of. The compressor was efficient enough, but there was tons of backpressure sitting in the exhaust. The more boost you run on a choked up exhaust, the more likely you are to spray fuel on a very hot spent charge. Likewise, all the new (hopefully cool air from the Fuso) will be severly heated. EGT's would likely show this. Now I do not know first hand if this is actually the case on turbo exhaust sizing.. but hopefully I will get a chance to find out before I upgrade turbochargers from the 16g I will be running. I still believe there is something else there, as the A/F ratio was way to lean for 18psi. 13:1's are garunteed knock and possible blow. It only took 13.2:1 AFRs for my buddies 13B rotary to kill itself (ate apex seals alive) w/ 3mm apex seals on 17psi, and thats at 5500Ft above sea level (so air volume equivelent of maybe 14-15psi at sea level). Granted higher octane will solve it, but I strongly believe that you can get some power out of pump gas... 8:1 is still not very high. Likewise, I don't believe that its nessisary to run 18psi, I think we need to find what it is that causes that loss from 4k and up (perhaps thats the exhaust housing on the turbo causing this) that would net us plenty of street usable power (300-350 is more than enough for a street 4 cylinder, even 280-300 is gonna kill most any car that bothers you on the street). 15psi should do that for us... IF we get rid of the dip down at 4k and up. Joel